Author Topic: Paladins falling  (Read 22579 times)

Offline rreinier

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Paladins falling
« on: June 28, 2005, 09:48:50 AM »
IIRC, the criteria for Paladins falling were "loosened" in one of the last Virtue versions. Where are these criteria contained and is it easy to put it back to "any virtue loss at all causes falling"? If not, could you make it an option during installing to have Paladins fall immediately? This change is the main reason why I'm no longer updating Virtue, so it kinda keeps me from enjoying further improvements to the mod...

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2005, 04:22:38 AM »
The possibility of having the strictness of the PC Paladin's god tied to the Difficulty slider just occurred to me.

Offline jester

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 05:36:58 AM »
Interesting idea! Something entirely new instead of thougher foes. ;)
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2005, 02:35:33 PM »
Quote
IIRC, the criteria for Paladins falling were "loosened" in one of the last Virtue versions. Where are these criteria contained and is it easy to put it back to "any virtue loss at all causes falling"? If not, could you make it an option during installing to have Paladins fall immediately? This change is the main reason why I'm no longer updating Virtue, so it kinda keeps me from enjoying further improvements to the mod...
I guess I could start introducing optional components for this, but are you likely to be satisfied when the atonement system is implemented, which places the strictness mid-way between the current and previous situations? (No, really. I will finish atonement one day.)

Quote
The possibility of having the strictness of the PC Paladin's god tied to the Difficulty slider just occurred to me.
Unfortunately, I can see tying it to the difficulty slider being awkward to cater for when taking into account the ability to change the slider mid-game.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2005, 09:56:45 PM »
You can't just have each Virtue drop look at the current Difficulty setting, and determine whether or not to Fall that way? Poopie. :-\

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 05:59:59 AM »
I can, yeh, but with atonement, what happens if the timer requiring the player to atone has started, and then the difficulty slider is changed. And then it's changed back later, when the timer's expired? It's confusing me enough just thinking about it, let alone coding it. :)

Offline rreinier

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2005, 11:10:36 AM »
I'll be happy as long as a Paladin falls after a single Virtue drop.

I'll be even happier if there's a grueling atonement quest to regain Paladin status.

Offline Ebon

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2005, 07:30:20 AM »
Maybe I'm too old on this (hey, haven't visited longtime,) but if I'm still right---that paladins fall after any dumb step, then I'm annoyed. Otherwise maybe not...
THE ONLY WAY I'D LET A PALADIN FALL it'd be for pacting with the evil FOREVER IN THAT QUEST. Say you do the Coronet Slave Freedom mission. You speak with the mighty barbarian gladiator. NOW, if you just turn him to Lehtinan, or if you attack the beastmaster (he started it didn't he) you WON't lose the holy title. But if you actually ARE on Lehtinan's side and do his bidding, you are WELL WORTHY for punishment. Just know this: paladin's aren't Jedis, they're just people with honourable holy gifts. Naturally, they can do a few mischiefs without God striking them down.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2005, 09:17:32 AM »
No they can't, that's the point. Paladins are kept to a strict Code, and a small misstep is very significant. In the situation you painted above, a Paladin would most certainly fall for turning in Hendak to Lethinan.

Yes, this does place severe restrictions on Paladins, but that's a good thing. Proper Paladins aren't supposed to be easy to play, nor to allow the player much "room for error". You do evil, you fall, simple as that.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2005, 10:04:38 AM »
The number of people who want to play paladins but don't want to properly roleplay a LG alignment is pretty amazing ;).
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Offline Borsook

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2005, 11:15:27 AM »
Probably cause that's one of the most "powerful" classes in the game ;D. BTW I agree with rreinier, I always thought of paladins as more  LG than normal LG. And remember tis a world where all cleric(so paladin) spells are granted by their god, this close link suggest they may know if paladin steps out of line.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2005, 01:06:30 PM »
The number of people who want to play paladins but don't want to properly roleplay a LG alignment is pretty amazing ;).
The problem is that there is no single view of precisely what a LG alignment really is. According to Virtue, if you rescue a noble from captivity, but you hesitate before actually untying the rope because, instead of saying "Thank you," the noble is being insolent and demanding, you should Fall irredeemably.

I've always said that if there's any way that a Virtue drop can be conceivably roleplayed by a Paladin, it shouldn't cause a Fall. (Loss of Virtue perhaps, but not an automatic Fall.) In the case of Lady Elgea, it would make far more sense for a Paladin to lose his status for accepting the ransom, not for attempting to instruct others in the virtues of patience and gratitude.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 09:29:17 AM »
But perhaps this is a problem with the virtue drop in question, not with the concept of Paladins falling on a single drop...

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2005, 01:24:28 AM »
Yes, I would call that a problem with this specific Virtue drop. But I also have a problem with the concept of "one-hit-and-you're-dead," no matter what any consensus on a "proper LG alignment" might be. To illustrate my point, you say that on a Virtue scale of 1 to 20, a Virtue drop of 1 means an instant, irredeemable Fall. But what if Virtue was on a scale of 1 to 200? Or 2000? Would a 1-point drop kill a Paladin even then? If I'm playing a game where I suddenly suffer crippling penalties because I forgot to cover my nose when I sneezed in public, then there's something wrong with the game.

A Paladin should be allowed to break a minor law, provided that doing so would cause no harm whatsoever (example: jaywalking when you can see perfectly well that there are no cars coming).
A Paladin should be allowed to get drunk after the party gets back from destroying a powerful evil.
A Paladin should be allowed to save the life of his own child, rather than those of 2 total strangers.
A Paladin should be allowed to make mistakes. Even the most uptight of us still screw up from time to time.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 01:04:20 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline jester

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2005, 02:34:22 AM »
@'A Paladin should be allowed to save the life of his own child, rather than those of 2 total strangers.'

This seems to be a rather odd tradeoff, but I can dimly see your point on the horizon with the scale. Although the penalties might be more sever for something on a wider scale of 200 or 2000. Killing an innocent? Wooops 50 or 500 off your karma account.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2005, 01:47:00 PM »
...the penalties might be more sever for something on a wider scale of 200 or 2000. Killing an innocent? Wooops 50 or 500 off your karma account.
Oh yeah, most penalties would grow in proportion with the inflated scale--you're not going to decapitate your own teammate from behind and still lose only 2 points of Virtue out of 2000. But what an expanded scale would allow is more shades of severity--allowing leeway to do things like leave Lady Elgea tied up for an extra minute or two, or tell Lady Delcia Caan that she needs to be more respectful, without actually Falling.

(Speaking of Delcia, there should be a Rep/Virtue hit for taking away the de'Arnisse's weapons and jewelry without Nalia's express permission.)

Re: A Paladin saving his own kid instead of 2 other people: In a PnP game, the player would have the opportunity to talk this out with the DM, and if he can convince the DM that his actions were in character and valid for his alignment, the DM would not regard that as ground for a Fall. For example, if your boat suddenly breaks in half and starts sinking, it is neither Unlawful nor Chaotic to jump to the half where your own kid is scared out of his wits, and swim with him to shore. It's no crime to be motivated by love, or even by the instinct of preserving your own kin. As modders, we have to make some sort of effort to be accomodating in cases where such plausible arguments can be made.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2005, 01:41:01 PM »
I've been thinking some more about the "Paladin saving own child rather than 2 others" issue, specifically how it relates to a series of Kabuki plays that come to a head in the play called The Village School. Plot synopsis follows.

Background: Matsumoru is a powerful samurai, who has sworn to follow Lord Sugawara. Later, Sugawara kills Kan Shojo, the rightful lord of the province, and usurps his rank. He then seeks out all Shojo's relatives so that he can supplant the dynasty with his own. Kan Shojo's only son, Kan Shusai, is a young boy currently in hiding (posing as a child of much lesser nobility) at a small provincial school run by Genzo and his wife Tonami.

Events: The Lady Chiyo brings her son, Kotaro, to study at Genzo's school. Genzo comes home from town--he has just learned that Sugawara's spies have located Kan Shusai in spite of the disguise, and Sugawara has sent Matsumoru, who knows Kan Shusai by sight, to come and collect the boy....or rather, the boy's head. Genzo is in despair: He must show loyalty to the slain Kan Shojo, and would try to fob Matsumoru off with the head of another boy if he could, but all his other pupils are stupid peasant boys, not one of them would ever be mistaken for the child of a noble. His wife Tonami states that the new pupil, Kotaro, would be an excellent substitute for Kan Shusai. Genzo meets the boy, and agrees that the resemblance is very striking. Genzo and Tonami commune for a moment, and reflect that they must be monsters to even consider doing such a thing.
Matsumoru (and a party of Sugawara's soldiers) arrives, and Tonami herds all the boys into an inner room while Genzo tries to bargain for time. Matsumoru gives Genzo a box, and tells him to do the beheading himself, and bring him the head in the box. Genzo takes the box inside, and a thwack is heard. Genzo returns with the box and hands it to Matsumoru, who opens it to reveal Kotaro's head. Matsumoru is satisfied, and agrees that it is the head of Kan Shusai. Matsumoru and soldiers leave with the head.
Lady Chiyo returns, to collect her son Kotaro. Genzo realizes that if she blabs around town how he killed her son, then the deception will be revealed and Kotaro's death will have been for naught--therefore she must die too. He attacks, but she is able to defend herself. In the middle of the fight, Matsumoru returns, alone. He reveals that Chiyo is his wife. Kotaro was their son. They sent him to the school for the specific purpose of having him serve as a substiture for Kan Shusai. Kan Shusai comes out of hiding, just as his exiled mother arrives, and the hunted pair flee into the hills.

Thoughts: Can a Paladin uphold his oath to serve a lord who has turned Evil? What about Neutral? Is it all right to Lawfully serve an Evil master as long as you personally are not ordered to perform Evil actions?
In this play, it is presented as a very hororable thing to sacrifice your own child in place of the child of the lawful lord (who also happened to be your former master). But does it then follow that to refuse to sacrifice your child would then be dishonorable?

Offline jester

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2005, 06:08:26 PM »
Wow these Japanese never fails to amaze me. How hard is it for a god to change alignment anyway, since paladins are not samurai? Samurai are based on following their leaders without questioning them. Most of the time good and evil were very relative terms I guess.  Perhaps a paladin would relinquish his state as a last act of honour if he became aware of the change. The question is if evil gods can have paladins at all. If they can't then the powers granted shoul vanish with the change automatically.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2005, 12:44:48 PM »
How hard is it for a god to change alignment anyway, since paladins are not samurai? Samurai are based on following their leaders without questioning them.
I don't know if any gods ever changed alignment, but they certainly aren't all Good. What about Paladins of Helm? They certainly exist, but how would they react if their Neutral god asks them to do something Evil every once in a while? True, Paladins are not Samurai, but they do share a number of striking similarities, and Paladins must follow the commands of their Order as well as their god. (Would a Paladin of Torm feel bound to obey a command of Tyr, or some such?)

Quote
The question is if evil gods can have paladins at all.
I don't see why not, (un)holy warriors who follow their deity's teachings with all the zeal of any Priest. Why the heck would a Paladin of Cyric be forced to be Lawful Good? The alignment of the Paladin should match the alignment of the god, being Lawful if the god is Lawful or Neutral, and Neutral if the god is Chaotic.

Quote
Most of the time good and evil were very relative terms I guess.
Yeah--suppose, for example, a landowner for some reason decides to close off access to his mill, meaning the peasants can no longer turn their grain into flour. The landowner has a perfect right to do this, it's his mill, but it really screws the people. Should a Paladin be Lawful or Good in this instance? Etc.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2005, 10:29:33 PM »
Or great Six is one of THOSE people,

The definition of a paladin is a HERO.
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.


A paladin is NOT lawful just for following laws. A Paladin is lawful because he must follow a strict code of conduct.


I got this off a website and its a good guide line for a paladins code.
Potence:
Seek excellence in all endeavors expected of a paladin, martial and otherwise, gaining strength to be used in the service of justice, rather than in personal aggrandizement. Seek great stature of character by holding to the virtues and duties of a paladin. Realize that, though one can never teach such ideals, the quality of striving toward them makes one truly worthy. Through your worthiness you can also influence others, offering a compelling example of what one can accomplish in the service of good.
*   Temperance:
Remember always that the extremes of even the greatest of virtues, can become the greatest of vices, and offer a point of frailty that can allow evil to gain a foothold. Seek moderation in all things, and preserve your balance so that you may not be deceived into doing evil in the name of Good.
*   Fortitude
Being a paladin often means choosing the more difficult path, the personally expensive one. Be prepared to make personal sacrifices in service of the precepts and people you value. At the same time, a paladin should seek wisdom to see the difference between courage and foolishness. Courage also means taking the side of truth in all matters, rather than seeking the expedient lie.
*   Justice
Seek always the path of good, unencumbered by personal interest. Recognize that the sword of justice can be a terrible thing, so it must be tempered by humanity and mercy.
*   Prudence
Although a paladin shows wisdom in his actions and commits no act without due consideration, when in doubt, do what is right and good for its own sake.
*   Integrity
Truth, virtue, fidelity, and honor are motives unto themselves, and each is larger than any single paladin. Seek all these achievements as sincerely as possible, not for the reason of personal gain but because it is right. Do not restrict your exploration to a small world, but seek to infuse every aspect of your life with these qualities. Should you succeed in even a tiny measure, you will be well remembered for your quality and virtue.
*   Faith
A paladin must have faith in his beliefs, for faith roots him and offers hope against despair.
*   Hope
Remember always that your god does not, and will not, abandon you in your darkest hour. Speak and he will hear. Ask and he shall give. Question and he shall answer. There is no darkness beyond the reach of his light, no pit of despair beyond his comfort.
*   Charity
Be generous insofar as your resources allow. Place the needs of others before your own. Keeping this in mind makes decisions regarding justice much simpler. Place value upon the contributions of others. Do not boast of your own accomplishments, wait for others to do this for you. Tell the deeds of others before your own, according them the renown rightfully earned through virtuous deeds.

If following the code or a law would lead to evil. A Paladin must not follow it.
Lawful is listed before good only because lawful good sounds better then good lawful.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2005, 01:02:37 PM »
Or great Six is one of THOSE people,
Ummm....what?  ???


Quote
I got this off a website and its a good guide line for a paladins code.
Yeah, that all is quite good, and interesting to boot. Gives lots of background. But it's obviously written by (and more important, for) someone of Good alignment, so the real question here is if there's an alternate version, written by and for paladins of Neutral or Evil alignment, should any exist....and if not, why not. I need to research the Blackguard kit.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2005, 05:45:05 PM »
One of those people, refers to those who think there should be paladins of all alignments.

Part of being a paladin is geting all these nifty powers but having to follow a strict code. How could an evil paladin have a strict code of conduct.

Soililng paladins by having versons for all alignments is a mistake. Remember Paladins are lawful because of there code, not for following laws. Thier code promotes good thus they are lawful good..


Blackguards can be of ANY evil alignment. They have no code other then being evil. The only way a player can be come a "fallen" blackguard, is if they can't bring themself to roleplay being evil. And a paladin

The most any evil class has for a code if following thier evil deity or perhaps a demon prince.
Blackguards are tough but they still don't gain quite as many powers as a paladin. A blackguard is most powerful when they result from a fallen paladin.

The definition of a paladin is a HERO.
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.

The simple definition of the paladin denotes being noble and heroic. REGUARDLESS of the actually historical examples of paladins.

A Blackguard isn't qutie as strong as a paladin. They don't quite have as many of the nifty powers or reversed versions. Thats because its easy to be a blackguard but its HARD to maintain a strict code of goodness.
A Chaotic Good Ranger, might take the bandits stolen goods and sell them. But A paladin would be expected to return the stolen items.

They only have paladins for good alignment. Because its easier to be evil, or not get involved and remain netural. (and its really hard to fight to maintain neutrality)

Evil can't support a strict code of conduct.
Neutral doesn't have quite the zeal needed.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2005, 10:48:16 PM »
One of those people, refers to those who think there should be paladins of all alignments.
Not quite all alignments; I mentioned that there should be no such thing as a Chaotic Paladin. All Paladins should be one step more Lawful (if possible) than their chosen god. I just don't see why being Good should be a requisite for holy warriors. Surely an Evil Paladin would function much the same in Zhentil Keep as a Good Paladin would in Waterdeep. Just because they're Evil doesn't mean they roam the streets, burning down homes and killing people in their sleep. It makes no sense for Neutral and Evil gods to have Clerics, but not Paladins. For that matter, I've never understood why Rangers have to be of Good alignment either--if anything, the only alignment restriction on Rangers should be that they cannot be Lawful.


Quote
Part of being a paladin is geting all these nifty powers but having to follow a strict code. How could an evil paladin have a strict code of conduct.
Depends on what god they follow. For example, Bhaal was Lawful Evil. According to my files, Bhaal's profile was "death, especially violent or ritual death," so a Paladin of Bhaal could function much as a public executioner, removing from the system anyone who interferes with the smooth workings of society. A Paladin of Talos might work in a hospital or homeless shelter, protecting those whose lives had been destroyed by some random ocurrence--provided they would dedicate their faith to Talos--and casually allow a fire to consume the homes of nonbelievers. Some Evil gods, like Cyric, would most likely choose not to have Paladins at all, seeing as how Cyric's portfolio includes things like lies and illusion. Evil Paladins would still follow a strict code of ethics--it would simply be a code geared toward Evil ends.

Don't forget, the "essence" of being a Paladin is not wholly Good: The three canon gods of Paladins are Tyr, Torm, and Helm--two Goods and a Neutral. When Anomen passes his Test, he does not become Lawful Good because "he's closer to being a Paladin now," he becomes Lawful Good because he's learned that sometimes being merciful and showing pacifism is the right thing to do. A true Paladin of Helm (should such a thing actually exist) would enforce laws, especially laws concerning territory and property, with no consideration of Good or Evil.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2005, 12:22:32 AM »
The essense of being a paladin IS GOOD, reguardless of helm. Paladins of helm are devoted to his aspect of protection. They wouldn't get involved in property laws. If you notice Adjantis from BG1 a Paladin of helm is STILL lawful good.

Paladins of helm are part of a sect in helms church called
The Vigilant Eyes of the God.

Also check helm's dogma. It includes, protect the weak, poor, injured and young. Do not sacrfice them for others or yourself. Overall he's a lawful neutral deity but his paladins serve over his protection are of his domain.
The Forgotten realms actuallys breaks the standard rules about paladins and their gods.

a code directed towards evil could never be as strict as a lawful good paladins code.
As being evil involves being selfish, destructive and other wise cruel. Reguardless of the dark deity.
Its easy to follow a code put forth by bhaal. Its no harder then one of his clerics. Bane is really easy as most evil villians want to by Tyrants and many Tyrants would pray to the god of Tyrants.

Evil deities are UNHOLY, lack virtue and never have a noble cause. (reguardless of what they or there followers think)
Being a champion of an evil deity means you never have make a sacrfice for another. You force others to sacrfice for you.


And ONCE again the definition of a paladin is a HOLY warrior of virtue. Champions of a noble casue.
This is the THIRD timing I'm saying this.

In D&D HOLY MEANS GOOD
UNHOLY MEANS EVIL.
Evil gods, demons, devils the like are unholy.

The definition of a paladin is a
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.

An evil paladin is not a paragon of chivalry, they aren't heroic. And they aren't noble.

Evil deities may have "chamipions of evil" but they aren't paladins they don't have the alignment restrictions they don't have a strict code. As that hinders being evil. The title of paladin is reserved for noble warriors of virtue.


Paladins can't be evil because they wouldn't be a paladin. As a paladin is by definition good, and most evil deities would be qutie insulted if someone confused them with being good.

A blackguard shouldn't have as much divine power as a Paladin as they don't sacrfice themseves for others.

The neutral gods not allied at all with good or evil at all. There is no champion of neutrality because being True Neutral is almost impossible to roleplay for a mortal (which is why Druids can now be any neutral alignment)
Lawful Neutral would be a champion of law. Chaotic Neutral would be a champion of Chaos.

P.S the alignment restriction on Rangers was lifted in 3.0 they can now be of any alignment.

Evil has its champions but they are NEVER called paladins and they never have as strict of an alignment or code.

in 3.0 deites have PrC classes for their champions, Bhaal's champions are called the  DeathStalkers. Its a special class taken at later levels, around 6 or so. Even deites have champion classes too.
Such as the Platinum Knight of Bahamaut (god of good dragons)


Being a paladin is about being a champion of good, not a champion of a god.
The forgotten realms has a much closer connection to paladins and the gods dogma then other worlds.





Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2005, 05:26:18 AM »
A paladin is NOT lawful just for following laws. A Paladin is lawful because he must follow a strict code of conduct.

Part of being a paladin is geting all these nifty powers but having to follow a strict code. How could an evil paladin have a strict code of conduct.

...

Soililng paladins by having versons for all alignments is a mistake. Remember Paladins are lawful because of there code, not for following laws. Thier code promotes good thus they are lawful

...
 
Evil can't support a strict code of conduct.

So you're saying you can't have any characters of Lawful Evil alignment?
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