Author Topic: Paladins falling  (Read 20756 times)

Offline Borsook

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2005, 12:04:10 AM »
Why bonus against devils? Aren't they lawful-evil? Unless it's because "a custom made kit has to be overpowered" rule  ;)
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2005, 12:00:44 PM »
Why bonus against devils?
Simply due to their similarities to demons, an enemy which a Cavalier would have studied.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2005, 08:41:18 PM »
Well, after posting some of this material over at Gibberlings Three, within hours I learned that the Infinity Engine actually cannot handle Paladins who Fall when they deviate from low or medium values of Reputation/Virtue, only when they deviate from high values. Odd that this thread lasted for days here at Pocket Plane, and still nobody has pointed out this engine limitation. This implies that the folks at G3 know a lot more about the engine than the folks at PP, but hey, who's counting?

Finally got some closure on those "other Paladin-types" that Reverendratbastard was talking about; they are:
LG - Paladin
NG - Sentinel
CG - Avenger
LN - Enforcer
TN - Incarnate
CN - Anarch
LE - Despot
NE - Corrupter
CE - Blackguard
Thanks, CamDawg! And it seems that these are indeed actual paladins (for lack of a better name at the moment, I'll have to make a distinction between 'paladin' and 'Paladin'): Holy warriors devoted to their gods, not just warriors with abilities beyond simply killing things. Although I can't see any attraction to the title of "Incarnate." Incarnate what? Reminds me of that time in high school, when we spent the night at "Club Del."  ::)

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2005, 11:31:34 AM »
This implies that the folks at G3 know a lot more about the engine than the folks at PP, but hey, who's counting?
Au contraire, I'm fully aware of the limitation. I also think I know a way to work around it. :)

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2005, 12:50:50 PM »
What do you reckon you can make the engine do differently re: Falling, and how?
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2005, 06:18:01 PM »
Given that some aspects of Falling/Atonement can be scripted (Paladins & Rangers will immediately Fall if they accept the Nymph Cloak in Hell, their Fallen status can be redeemed as a result of their stronghold quests), and the Virtue mod essentially-short-circuits the entire Reputation variable, it's my guess that the entire process of Falling can be run through channels solely controlled by scripting, as opposed to hardcoded variable dependence. But that's just a guess on my part.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2005, 06:19:10 PM »
simding???/
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Offline Grim Squeaker

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2005, 06:47:45 AM »
Well, if all rep changing events could be changed to a modification of a variable, then this should be possible i.e. replace ReputationInc(X) with IncrementGlobal("NewReputationVariable","GLOBAL",X), ReputationSet(X) with SetGlobal("NewReputationVariable","GLOBAL",X) and the reputation token in the GUI with a token for this variable.  Then using scripts any falling/regaining can be done via script.  The problem is with my assumption at the start: I'm not convinced all rep changing events can be changed as some of them may be hardcoded e.g. how does theft from stores work, killing peasants etc.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2005, 07:50:53 AM »
That won't work terribly well, since there's no way to completely remove the original reputation display from the record screen. What I'm considering is having all paladins fall at the beginning of the game (since this conveniently hides any potential spamming of the info window) and then re-applying their abilities using AddKit (the kits used would actually be fighter kits, since paladin kits don't correctly add abilities if you're fallen). I'd then have the ability to switch players to a special "Fallen Paladin" kit when neccessary.

Offline Grim Squeaker

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2005, 08:48:05 AM »
Ah shit.  Just noticed the fact that reputation didn't have a token on the record screen.  Why to Bioware suck so much cock?
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2005, 06:57:38 AM »
That won't work terribly well, since there's no way to completely remove the original reputation display from the record screen. What I'm considering is having all paladins fall at the beginning of the game (since this conveniently hides any potential spamming of the info window) and then re-applying their abilities using AddKit (the kits used would actually be fighter kits, since paladin kits don't correctly add abilities if you're fallen). I'd then have the ability to switch players to a special "Fallen Paladin" kit when neccessary.

If you AddKit() a Fighter kit will it cause issues with the Paladin quickbar?

I'm thinking, if you could get this to work, we could possibly use the same method in Divine Remix for a Blackguard and to open up Ranger kits to all alignments.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2005, 04:48:03 PM »
If you AddKit() a Fighter kit will it cause issues with the Paladin quickbar?
You nest the AddKit() action between two commands to change to and from the fighter class, ie.

ChangeClass(Player1,FIGHTER)
ActionOverride(Player1,AddKit(CAVALIER))
ChangeClass(Player1,PALADIN)

As far as I can tell, the only side effect is greying out the Turn Undead button momentarily. I haven't been able to pause it and see "Fighter" on the record screen at any point.
AddKit like this conveniently calculates the right number of abilities each time rather than stacking with itself, but has to be reapplied every level-up since this isn't done automatically (this is the weak point of the solution).

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2005, 06:33:39 PM »
But then surely if their Reputation dropped then they'd Fall still?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2005, 07:22:50 PM »
I'm saying they'd already be fallen. The kit re-applies the paladin abilities.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2005, 07:31:07 PM »
Yes, but when they do something Bad, wouldn't they still Fall (since you've ChangeClass()ed them back to Paladin)? Or are they still labelled 'Fallen Paladin' and so immune to further Falling, or something?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2005, 07:41:33 PM »
Fallen paladin is a flag independent of class, so they remain fallen regardless of what you change. (It doesn't actually matter either way-- they can fall whenever and it'll still work the same, but it's cleaner if they just stay fallen the whole time.)

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2005, 07:46:44 PM »
I am not sure I get it 100% - if, using your method, a character who is already Fallen does an Evil act (e.g. slaying a peasant) will they lose their abilities again automatically (as if they had Fallen again)? Yes/no?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2005, 07:52:16 PM »
No.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2005, 07:58:02 PM »
Hey, cool.
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