Author Topic: Paladins falling  (Read 20755 times)

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2005, 04:00:43 AM »
Lord Kain pretty much answered the question for me.  The code of conduct you presented certainly makes these guys more Lawful than your typical LE character, but it's the Good/Evil axis which is the problem.  They seem almost halfway between LE and LN.
Okay--my dilemma is that for every step I take in trying to make them really, really strict and non-Chaotic, that reads as a step toward Neutrality. Let me demonstrate.

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
1] They must honor and obey the rules of all Evil societies, in both letter and spirit, most importantly the laws of the sect of their own god.
This still runs counter to being lawful evil. Lawful evil societies still only respect the letter of the law. There is no spirit of the law in a lawful evil societiy.
No spirit of the law at all? I have little to no knowledge of countries like Thay, but even so, I find that rather difficult to believe. If your superior gives you an order (e.g., "Go kill this person"), it's in your best interest to do not just what he said, but also what he meant ("Go kill this person, today, as opposed to next week or whenever you feel like it"), even if only to avoid the whuppin' that you would get when he found out that you didn't do what you knew damn well he wanted you to do.
So, true, this character restriction is more Lawful than Evil, but I honestly think that the way it caters to the laws of Evil societies should be Evil enough. How would you feel if the Evil Paladin only jumped to obey the wishes of his own church, and nobody else?

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
2] They may never break their word to anyone. They may intentionally mislead only creatures who are known to be of Good alignment or serve a Good god. Outright lies are forbidden at all times.
This is actually quite nice, It would force a player to keep being clever, (never actually giving his word or leaving a gaping loop hole in the contract)
This restriction is so like #1 (one deals with laws stated by the Paladin himself, the other with laws of a society, with the same bias toward Evil and against Good) that I find it puzzling that you should like one but not the other.

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
3] They may not kill through means of stealth, trickery, traps, or poison.
Evil loves stealth, trickery, traps and poison. The champion of evil should use all of these things.
The Poison I can see as an issue mostly relevant to the Good-Evil axis, but the idea of essentially lying to your enemy strikes me more as a Law-Chaos thing. I'm open to being convinced, however. I should also point out that from the very beginning, the wording I chose is that Evil Paladins may not kill using these tactics.

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
4] Must work to gain the maximum advantage (to his god, lord, or society) out of any deal, stopping short of actual cheating or intentionally hiding pertinent information from other parties. The Paladin is under no obligation to reveal such information, however.
This is a more Lawful Neutral guide line. The lawful evil villian is supposed to cheat the other parties in the deal.
Would it help if I included an 'Evil over Good' bias in here as well, similar to #1 and #2?

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
5] Must fight honorably whenever possible: One-on-one duels, preferably with the opponent allowed to choose between ranged and melee combat. The Paladin is, however, encouraged to deny any request for mercy, provided he was ever in any actual danger.
The evil paladin should use any tactic they see fit. Some might be "honorible" and like the 1 on 1 duel. Especially as the dark paladin would be facing several heroes at once.
Since the only Evil part of this rule is not allowing the enemy to surrender, yeah, I can see how this is too oriented toward Law as opposed to Evil. Maybe if he was only required to fight in single combat if requested or challenged to do so, or if the enemy was known to be non-Good in alignment, or something. Or maybe the Evil Paladin could be urged to challenge the enemy leader to single combat at all times--but is not allowed to discourage his companions from turning invisible and Backstabbing the other guy in the middle of the duel.
Or maybe this one should be abandoned altogether.

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
6] Must support and defend those in need, provided those in turn honestly pledge fealty to the Paladin's god, lord, or society.
You need to add or pay him a great deal.
Good call.

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
7] May not accept anything suspected of being stolen, nor knowingly derive any benefit from any crime.
Lawful evil guys steal, lawful evil socities steal, Evil steals alot. The lawful evil villian just shouldn't get caught
Again, I'm seeing crime more as a factor on the Law-Chaos axis than Good-Evil. How about "all items or wealth suspected of being stolen must immediately be donated to the Paladin's church?"

Quote from: Lord Kain
Quote from: SixOfSpades
8] May never intentionally wrong a friend or ally unless a full and fair warning is issued well in advance.
Define "advance"
"I'll agree to go to this girl's castle with you and check out the odds, but if you allow said castle to end up in the hands of anybody as concerned with the "poor and unfortunate" as that hopelessly misguided bit of skirt, I swear I'll run you through, whether we're members of the same party or not."

Your evil paladin code doesn't help them on the path of evil just law.
A good paladins code is ment to keep them on the path of good.
Okay. Feel free to make suggestions to change the code to make it more Evil.

Quote
Nearly everyone on Faerun is devoted to a god of somekind. We also disagree on how closly a paladin is tied to thier god. Your saying they are just as tied to the gods as clerics. I'm saying there not.
By that, I'm assuming that you mean, their devotion to their god is less than a Cleric's. That's clear enough; a Cleric gets 7 levels of spells with 9+ spellslots per level, while a Paladin only gets 4 levels and 3 spellslots of each. That's the tradeoff that the Paladin makes to get Warrior combat stats. Or, to put it differently, Paladins are just as devoted as Clerics, just in another way: Clerics strive to understand their god and let him act through them, while Paladins are content to serve their god and act as his enforcers.

Quote
If you reduce a paladin to a simple geshant of fighter and cleric. It becomes easy to play. Just pick a god thats easy for you to roleplay under.
I'm assuming "geshant" means "combination." I should point out that where certain overpowered Paladin-specific items are not concerned, a Fighter/Cleric is more powerful than a Paladin any day of the week. That's why I think introducing Evil Paladins is a great way to encourage more roleplay, instead of just forcing players to make Evil Fighter/Clerics. What's wrong with choosing a god that fits your style, such as Tymora? Whether or not it's easy to play is a matter caused by an individual kit, not whether there can be Paladins of Evil gods in the first place.

Quote
The blackguard has evil versions of many of the paladins good abilites. However a blackguard is not immune to disease or fear like a normal paladin. They can't use lay on hands, unless they are also a fallen paladin in which case there's is self only.
All of this would work quite well for an Evil Paladin. I'm tempted to say they should get some other kind of immunity to compensate for not being immune to disease, but it happens so rarely in-game that it's about as useful as being immune to Intoxication. In place of Lay On Hands, they should get a variation of Vampiric Touch: A touch-range spell that saps 1 hitpoint per Paladin's level, and adds it to the Paladin's hp.
Borsook: How's that? As for healing spells, Evil people bleed too. Healing is too basic a need to have it dependent on alignment.

Quote
A blackguard can use posion with out risk of posioning themself, they can also do some bonus sneak attack damage like a rouge but no where near as good. There spellcasting is also a bit below a paladin's level. .... But a blackguard has no code and can be any evil alignment.
See, that's what I don't want: Evil Paladins should have a very sharply defined code and should be 1 step more Lawful than their god. Including Blackguards is fine, but Evil Paladins should be an option as well.

As for how these traits would work with an Evil Paladin, I don't think he would condone using Stealth or illusions to the degree that he would actually Backstab someone himself, nor do I think his spellcasting abilities should suffer simply because he's Evil. I also don't see how this detail about Poison would be that relevant.

Quote
the anti-paladin shouldn't be quite as powerful as the Good one, because they should be free to be evil in any fashion.
Again I must insist that I really don't want the overall power to be a function of alignment. Surely this would be better handled by increasing the Evil Paladin's roleplaying restrictions, as opposed to taking away his abilities.

Quote
A major problem for the kit in baldur's gate is coding issues trying to maintain the seperate fallen coding for the standard paladin and the evil kit. Other people who've attempted the anti-paladin made it a fighter kit, with a must be human and evil resitriction.
If the engine simply cannot handle a Paladin that Falls at high values of Rep/Virtue instead of low ones, that indeed would be a problem. But if so, I feel confident that someone like SimDing0 or Andyr or Ghreyfain would have mentioned it by now. Personally, I consider Weimer's Anti-Paladin kit to be more of a bad joke than anything meant to be taken seriously--or, god forbid, used as a positive example.

Quote
Class: Fighter kit Blackguard
Race: Human (for now)
Alignment: Any Evil
ADVANTAGES:
- Special Ability of Detect Good 1x/day per level
- Special Ability of Protection from Good 1x/day per level
- Can cast the 3rd-level spell "Unholy Blight" 1xday per four levels
- Can cast invisbilty 1x/day
- Can backstab for x2 damage at level 15.
- May use weapons reserved for Evil Fighters and Paladins, such as Unholy Reavers
- No penalty for losing Virtue.
DISADVANTAGES:
- Does not gain ability to Detect Evil
- Does not gain ability of Protection from Evil
- Can not turn undead or cast spells beyond the ones granted above.
- Can not lay on hands.
- May not use weapons reserved for Good Paladins, such as Holy Avengers
- Turn Undead ability can Charm Undead instead of destroying them
- Will lose status if Virtue rises above 6.
Unfortunately, while your intentions were good, your design for a Blackguard kit shares many of the same errors that Weimer built into the Anti-Paladin: Your Disadvantages section merely states that the Blackguard is denied a whole bunch of things that Fighters do not get anyway. So, essentially, they suffer the "limitations" of being Evil and having to stay that way, and in return they get to cast Detect Good, Protection from Good, Unholy Blight, and Invisibility, and they can Turn Undead and Backstab--in full armor, too. You can just imagine how munchkin a high-level Blackguard->Mage would be. That's why I strongly prefer that Evil Paladins be based off the Paladin class: Gains levels slowly, weapon specialization capped at 2 stars, Turn Undead, an alignment-specific assortment of Cleric spells, the inability to Dual-class. [ADD:] Oh, and the -2 bonus to Saving Throws. [/ADD]

Quote
Honestly I was quite sure we were talking about the nature of paladins in D&D in general, not just in BG terms.
Each influences the other, to my mind. After all, ideally the only difference between the two is that one is played on a tabletop, and the other is played on a desktop. :)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 01:25:23 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline Borsook

  • off topic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Gender: Male
  • not a badger
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2005, 07:11:05 AM »
E.g. in 3e good clerics can convert spells to healing evil ones to wounding ones. Substitution of healing spells by wounding ones would to my mind fit better an Evil paladin, who after all is a warrior.
Also lay-on-hands is granted paladin by his god, it's a sign of the paladin being "chosen". This doesn't suit evil counterpart at all, either he should be deprived of it or it should be substituted by something else.
"Borsook seems like a pretty cool guy who offers his insight where appropriate... just very, very frequently." - Imrahil

Borsook's Chambers - Home of Borsook's Mods

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2005, 11:32:26 AM »
You still don't address the issue that its much easier to be evil then to be good.

Being selfless and pure of heart should grant more reward then being selfish and taint of heart. Powers granted to paladins are a result of being selfless and pure. The "evil paladins" arent quite equal because evil is always selfish. And being selfless should grant rewards denied to those who are being selfish.

In essense, good is supposed to be superior to evil. Evils greatest victories in D&D have always been againts another evil.

Helm grants paladin powers because he knows his paladin's will be protectors and guardians. And that as evil exploits the law far more then good.

Kelmvor grants powers to paladins because he knows that, they can slay many undead and that it is evil who  most commonly creates undead. And it is evil who does the most damage to the balance of death.


But evil gods won't grant powers to a one who has a code out side thier dogma. They are far selfish for that.

Also evil doesn't get to have all the nice things good does. The reward for being evil is quicker path to power because you step on others to reach the top. There should be a greater reward for those willing to devote themselves to others.

Faerun is the only world where a paladin must have a parton deity.

The paladin is the champion of good, he's only lawful because his strict code is ment to keep him on the path of good.


The champion of evil doesn't need a code of conduct to keep them on the path of evil. Being greedy, power hungry and otherwise selfish should be good enougth to maintain the path of darkness.

The "dark paladin" shouldn't have the same messure of power as the good one, they make up for it in the under handed tactics they can employ that a paladin can not. But the dark paladin is defeated because there underhanded tactics aren't enougth overcome the paladin's strength of heart.

Playing an evil character can be fun and all, but playing the hero should have rewards that being evil can't have.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2005, 12:31:58 PM »
Being selfless and pure of heart should grant more reward then being selfish and taint of heart.

...

Also evil doesn't get to have all the nice things good does. The reward for being evil is quicker path to power because you step on others to reach the top. There should be a greater reward for those willing to devote themselves to others.

I don't think so. The truly good should work without demanding reward. There is no reason there has to be some 'payback' for their harder work (if, indeed, it is harder).

Quote
In essense, good is supposed to be superior to evil. Evils greatest victories in D&D have always been againts another evil.

Why 'supposed'? If you look at the Forgotten Realms and its characters, the Evil ones tend to be more powerful than the Good ones. When Evil loses, it is because it stands along while Good organisations will work together. Evil battling with itself in no way diminishes the power of Evil or makes Good 'superior'.

Quote
But evil gods won't grant powers to a one who has a code out side thier dogma. They are far selfish for that.

Good deities wouldn't grant powers to those counter to their dogma, either. And actually, thinking about it, two of Mask's Chosen pretty anti-religion (and deliberately only paid the deities lip service) at the time Mask appointed them.

Quote
Playing an evil character can be fun and all, but playing the hero should have rewards that being evil can't have.

Why?
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2005, 01:16:06 PM »
E.g. in 3e good clerics can convert spells to healing evil ones to wounding ones. Substitution of healing spells by wounding ones would to my mind fit better an Evil paladin, who after all is a warrior.
Also lay-on-hands is granted paladin by his god, it's a sign of the paladin being "chosen". This doesn't suit evil counterpart at all, either he should be deprived of it or it should be substituted by something else.
I did substitute something else: A version of Vampiric Touch. It heals only half as much damage as Lay On Hands does (and heals only the Paladin), but it also does that much damage to a target creature. I'll call it Blood Siphon or something.
I'd rather not see Evil Clerics and Paladins be restricted to the Cause X Wounds, thank you. A Paladin isn't going to waste a spellslot on that when he can do the same amount of damage just by whackin' the enemy with a sword.


You still don't address the issue that its much easier to be evil then to be good.
If your only goal is to kill every creature and collect every item, then yes, it's laughably easy to be Chaotic Evil. But if proper restrictions are put in place, to ensure that accepting a Good quest (such as saving Imnesvale) without an appropriately Evil reason (and, to my knowledge, there isn't one) will cause an Evil Paladin to Fall, then that ceases to be a problem. Can there be an Evil reason to kill the Shadow Dragon? I strongly doubt it. Therefore an Evil Paladin would have to Fall if he wants the Crom Faeyr. Etc.

[ADD:] Unless a path is implemented where the PC can deliver Mazzy to the Shade Lord with the intention of helping him make her become his next consort. To prove his worth to the Shade Lord, the PC must then return to Imnesvale and do something like killing every single person. Once this is done, the Shade Lord could command Thaxll'ssillyia to hand over the Crom Faeyr scroll, and maybe even a few of her scales. I don't think an Evil Paladin would have a moral issue with any of this, except maybe the part about killing defenseless children.[/ADD]

Quote
Being selfless and pure of heart should grant more reward then being selfish and taint of heart. And being selfless should grant rewards denied to those who are being selfish. In essense, good is supposed to be superior to evil. Also evil doesn't get to have all the nice things good does. There should be a greater reward for those willing to devote themselves to others. The "dark paladin" shouldn't have the same messure of power as the good one, they make up for it in the under handed tactics they can employ that a paladin can not. Playing an evil character can be fun and all, but playing the hero should have rewards that being evil can't have.
Oh really. Where is all that written?  ::)

As you mentioned earlier, D&D was originally created from a very one-dimensional perspective as far as alignment and motivation were concerned: Good adventurers banding together to go hunt and kill Evil monsters. That was pretty much the entire scope of the game. I don't know if that was because Gygax didn't want the bad press ("This game is deliberately encouraging our children to be evil!"), or because he didn't think it would catch on, or because he just didn't think of it at all. But I believe it's from this original bias toward Good that Paladins became these sanctimonious paragons of Judeo-Christian virtues, because the designers simply didn't consider that different people have different morals. I'd like to correct that oversight.

After all, you have yet to conjure up a plausible argument on why Evil gods wouldn't be just as willing and able to confer alignment-appropriate Paladin powers to their followers as Good gods would. As long as clear roleplaying restrictions are enforced for Paladins of all alignments, I don't see why you should have a problem--unless you choose to cling to the Good-centered morality of rulebooks that were abandoned long ago.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 01:43:53 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2005, 02:15:34 PM »
If your only goal is to kill every creature and collect every item, then yes, it's laughably easy to be Chaotic Evil. But if proper restrictions are put in place, to ensure that accepting a Good quest (such as saving Imnesvale) without an appropriately Evil reason (and, to my knowledge, there isn't one) will cause an Evil Paladin to Fall, then that ceases to be a problem. Can there be an Evil reason to kill the Shadow Dragon? I strongly doubt it. Therefore an Evil Paladin would have to Fall if he wants the Crom Faeyr. Etc.

Evil reason to slay shadow dragon——— I want the treasure, evil reason to save the village———— I want the reward, so I can go to spellhold and kill Irenicus

Being evil is easier, there are plently of reasons for one evil guy to stab another evil guy.

[qoute]
Being selfless and pure of heart should grant more reward then being selfish and taint of heart. And being selfless should grant rewards denied to those who are being selfish. In essense, good is supposed to be superior to evil. Also evil doesn't get to have all the nice things good does. There should be a greater reward for those willing to devote themselves to others. The "dark paladin" shouldn't have the same messure of power as the good one, they make up for it in the under handed tactics they can employ that a paladin can not. Playing an evil character can be fun and all, but playing the hero should have rewards that being evil can't have.
[/qoute]

Oh really. Where is all that written? 

OH so you want me to back up everything I say with stuff from rule books. I thought you wanted roleplaying reasons.

[qoute]
After all, you have yet to conjure up a plausible argument on why Evil gods wouldn't be just as willing and able to confer alignment-appropriate Paladin powers to their followers as Good gods would. As long as clear roleplaying restrictions are enforced for Paladins of all alignments, I don't see why you should have a problem--unless you choose to cling to the Good-centered morality of rulebooks that were abandoned long ago.
[/qoute]

I've givin you roleplaying reasons, you just ignored them or assumed i lifted them out of a rulebook because its a restriction.
The good centered morality was never abandoned it still says why being such and such evil alignment is the worst you can be.
A Paladin's power is more then granted by a deity, their purity and virtue is also a source.

I once again repeat it is easier to be evil, there can always be found a selfish motivation. The really smart lawful evil villian won't cause trouble in his own back yard. When the heroes stop your evil plot having a haven you can return to where the peasents won't rat you out because they think your a hero is qutie usefull.

My evil characters can always find an evil motivation for things. Why free the slaves, well it obvious why a good person does but why evil? well he doesn't profit form these slavers and he could profit from there death, they have gold and equipment to sell. Best of all you might be rewarded for killing them because you took out an ilegal organization.

So there can always be a selfish motivation in an action.
A good paladin will fall if he willingly does evil in the name of good, we can all agree on that. (I hope)

A reverse of that is an evil a paladin will fall lf he does good in the name of evil. Problem as evil is still selfish, a selfish person still may perform good actions for selfish reasons. Thus I say a reverse of the code is not possible. I say it is unrealistic to tray and create a working code for an evil paladin.

So an evil paladin should not have a code and be allowed to be any evil alignment. Thus they gain slightly less powers.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2005, 11:01:44 PM »
Evil reason to slay shadow dragon——— I want the treasure, evil reason to save the village———— I want the reward, so I can go to spellhold and kill Irenicus
Being evil is easier, there are plently of reasons for one evil guy to stab another evil guy.
I am perfectly willing to be patient and understanding with you, since it's pretty evident that English isn't your first language. But what you just described is a Neutral Evil action, the essence of greed. Roleplayed properly, a Lawful Evil character wouldn't kill the Dragon (they might kill the Shade Lord, but not the Dragon), and an Evil Paladin wouldn't even take the quest in the first place. Do not attempt to stretch the statement of "It's easy to roleplay Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil" into "It's easy to roleplay an Evil Paladin." You don't see me pretending that existing Paladins are played just like your average Chaotic Good, do you?

Quote
Oh really. Where is all that written?
OH so you want me to back up everything I say with stuff from rule books. I thought you wanted roleplaying reasons.
Sorry, I was being facetious. What I meant was, "Oh really. Since when has Ao been looking down from the heavens and giving all the high stats, powerful spells, and neat items only to people of Good alignment? I must have missed the part of every class's description that clearly states that being Evil only awards you half the Experience Points from every kill. Not to mention this inviolable rule that 'Good is supposed to be superior to Evil.' I must have been asleep or something when Ao announced that."

Now, it is true that there are situations where roleplaying Good is more rewarding than roleplaying Evil; the best examples of which are Adalon and the Lesser Demon Lord. But don't be fooled into thinking that BioWare's doings are sacrosanct by any means; after all, this is the same company that thought it was a good idea to slip The Vampire's Revenge in as an easter egg. The inequality in the EXP rewards from those two situations have repeatedly been criticized, and rightly so: If the party went through almost exactly the same steps and "learned" almost exactly the same things, they should gain almost exactly the same amount of experience as a result.

Quote
I've givin you roleplaying reasons, you just ignored them or assumed i lifted them out of a rulebook because its a restriction.
Not really, you just keep saying "No Paladin will ever be anything but Lawful Good" with little to no plausible justification, then you move on to "Evil people always do whatever they want," repeatedly ignoring my statements that Evil Paladins have standards of behavior far stricter than even the most Lawful Evil, and then you claim that "A Paladin's power derives from the sacrifices that they make," as if that made any real sense.

Quote
A Paladin's power is more then granted by a deity, their purity and virtue is also a source.
Case in point. Lord Kain, will you please define the concept of "virtue" for me? Chances are, every attribute you name will have positive connotation to people of Good alignment....and therefore will have a counterpart that will be positive to those of Evil alignment, which means Evil Paladins would have their own interpretation of the idea of "virtue" that is every bit as valid as yours. Can you honestly think that Evil societies don't have morals? No protocols, no standards of acceptable and unacceptable acts? That's as narrowminded as Christians believing that Muslims are just godless brutes, who care for nothing other than sitting in their tents, counting their camels, beating their women and killing infidels.

Quote
My evil characters can always find an evil motivation for things. Why free the slaves, well it obvious why a good person does but why evil? well he doesn't profit form these slavers and he could profit from there death, they have gold and equipment to sell. Best of all you might be rewarded for killing them because you took out an ilegal organization.
Yeah--and a Paladin can easily take out the Order of the Radiant Heart, and then go stand outside to wait for the Zhentarim to come and give him a big reward for doing so. And wait....and wait....and wait.
But--pssst--you know what really happens when a Paladin destroys an organization of his own alignment? He Falls, that's what.

Quote
A good paladin will fall if he willingly does evil in the name of good, we can all agree on that. (I hope) A reverse of that is an evil a paladin will fall lf he does good in the name of evil. Problem as evil is still selfish, a selfish person still may perform good actions for selfish reasons. Thus I say a reverse of the code is not possible. I say it is unrealistic to tray and create a working code for an evil paladin.
Well, the issue of whether a Good Paladin would Fall as a result of doing Renal's quest isn't exactly settled (or is it? I need to catch up on that), but for the purposes of discussion, let's say you're right, a Good Paladin will always Fall if he knowingly performs an Evil action for a Good cause. But you seem to have already assumed that the inverse of that statement, that an Evil Paladin will Fall if he does Good for an Evil reason, must be false. I'm sorry, but that's hardly a foregone conclusion, I for one disagree. Why should an Evil god continue to grant his divine power to a Paladin who singlehandedly raises the money to build a new wing on an orphan asylum, just so he could get the chance to meet the woman who runs it, and kill her? Sure, killing her would be very pleasing to the Evil god, but surely he could have accomplished this without going through all that Goody-two-shoes song and dance? He's a waste of time, better drop him from the ranks of your Paladins.

Quote
So an evil paladin should not have a code and be allowed to be any evil alignment. Thus they gain slightly less powers.
Close: I feel a Blackguard should not have a code and be allowed to be any Evil alignment, and gain less powerful abilities. An Evil Paladin, however, should be precisely that.

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2005, 02:36:15 AM »

"ut--pssst--you know what really happens when a Paladin destroys an organization of his own alignment? He Falls, that's what."

OK that only makes sense for a good align paladin.

EVIL is not allied with each other, many evil organizations are enemies with each other. The Cult of the Dragon is qutie evil and is enemies with well damn near everyone.

YOUR so called standards for evil paladins don't make sense. IF they must always be evil in all actions to the same degree a paladin is good. They'd wind up destorying themsleves not directly but their actions would quickly end up coming back to bite them in the ass. Much of being evil, is doing the same work as a hero but for different reasons and with different tactics. Why can't an evil "paladin" take on mercenary work. Sure the Shade Lord and the Shadow Dragon are also evil, but they are not my allies why the nine hell should I CARE or my deitiy.

Your code assumes the dark paladin would serve on the same level as a fantatic NPC. Who would play that, if the evil paladin must follow that code in letter and in spirit. That would bite, who'd play that. They lose most of the flavor of playing evil. Their code could quite easily force them into a situation where they must pick between becoming fallen or doing something stupid and geting killed shortly afterwards.

The smart lawful evil villians pretend to be good. Your guy can't be sneaky like other evil characters, now he would be hounded by countless heroes because everyone would know his nature and he can't hide it because it would likly break his evil code by pretending to be good.

In PnP I had this lawful evil half-fiend (father is a devil) now beneath his fortress was a few small villages around the area. Now he figured these places couldn't pay him much of any money in taxes. But he still protected them form harm. SO when heroes came snooping around the villages would say how great thier lord is. Thus the heroes remain unaware of my secret base in plain sight.

Your Dark Paladin as I understand your code wouldn't be allowed to do that. He could simply ignore the villages, but the heroes would be more likly to suspect the fortress up the mountain to belong to you. They also couldn't to good anyware to try and cover up thier own evil activities.

Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2005, 08:34:05 PM »
"You know what really happens when a Paladin destroys an organization of his own alignment? He Falls, that's what."
OK that only makes sense for a good align paladin. EVIL is not allied with each other, many evil organizations are enemies with each other. The Cult of the Dragon is qutie evil and is enemies with well damn near everyone.
All right, let me be more specific. If a Paladin commits a significant action, such as destroying an organization of his own god, or one serving an ally of his own god, he will Fall. Take Loviator, the goddess of torture and suffering, and Talona, the goddess of poison and disease. Both are Evil (Loviator is LE while Talona is CE), yet according to my records, they are enemies (most likely because each wants to absorb the other's portfolio). Therefore, while a Paladin of Loviator could theoretically carve up a Temple of Talona without expecting negative consequences, doing the same thing to devotees of Malar, who is an ally of Loviator, would certainly cause a Fall. Now, I'll use Cyric as a substitute for this Cult of the Dragon you mention, so that we've still got a god in the picture. Cyric has no allies whatsoever in any pantheon, so a Paladin of Cyric could theoretically kill whoever he wants to....but, as I've mentioned before, Cyric's portfolio includes lies, deception, and illusion, so he probably wouldn't want Paladins in the first place. Iyachtu Xvim might, as tyranny and hatred are both in-character for Evil Paladins, and Xvim doesn't have any allies either, but then, Xvim is only a Lesser Power, as far as being a god goes, so his Paladins would logically be either weak, or few in number.

I'd be perfectly willing to handicap a Paladin's spells and/or Special Abilities depending on the "rank" of their respective gods....but then, the canon Paladin deities, Torm, Helm & Tyr, are Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater Powers, respectively, with another Intermediate if we include Ilmater, so the average rank is Intermediate....therefore, a Paladin who serves a single Greater Power would be more powerful than the standard setup, and I'd rather not see this get munchkin. (Then again, if the difference just means that the Paladin gets 4 spellslots of each level, as opposed to 3, that's not really munchkin.)

Quote
YOUR so called standards for evil paladins don't make sense. IF they must always be evil in all actions to the same degree a paladin is good. They'd wind up destorying themsleves not directly but their actions would quickly end up coming back to bite them in the ass.
That's difficult to say without a specific example. Could you give us one, please?

Quote
Sure the Shade Lord and the Shadow Dragon are also evil, but they are not my allies why the nine hell should I CARE or my deitiy.
Doesn't the simple fact that they're on your half of the whole Good-Evil dichotomy mean that they get the benefit of the doubt? Sure, the Harpers and the Temple of Helm aren't allies either, but they're both Neutral, and I've never heard of any friction between [/i]them[/i]. Killing an Evil Dragon is an inescapably Good act, so unless your Evil deity has some beef against Dragons, that's a definite Fall.

Quote
Your code assumes the dark paladin would serve on the same level as a fantatic NPC. Who would play that, if the evil paladin must follow that code in letter and in spirit. That would bite, who'd play that.
Hence the people who got upset when they discovered that installing Virtue would mean that their Inquisitor could no longer root out Mae'Var's den of Evil Thieves.

Quote
... They lose most of the flavor of playing evil. Their code could quite easily force them into a situation where they must pick between becoming fallen or doing something stupid and geting killed shortly afterwards.
Again, that's tough to call unless we have a specific scenario we can talk about. Oh, and in a dilemma, where erring on either side might cause the (Good) Paladin to do Evil, the Paladin will always do nothing rather than work against his code, even unknowingly. I believe Rule #1 is: Do No Harm.

Quote
The smart lawful evil villians pretend to be good. Your guy can't be sneaky like other evil characters, now he would be hounded by countless heroes because everyone would know his nature and he can't hide it because it would likly break his evil code by pretending to be good.
Yup. If we're going to go strictly by the book here, any Good (and almost certainly Evil) Paladin would Fall as soon as he uttered the words, "I am Veldrin, from the city of Ched Nasad."

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2005, 01:20:36 AM »
A small consideration...Personally I don't like the fact that a specific class (in this case Paladin) should be always "mirrored" on the other side of the fence (in this case Evil)...I never liked this kind of approach. I believe that two opposite ethical and moral concept should eventually bring to the development of specific classes if we want to matain a strong differentiation of identities.

It has no sense for me to see an Anti-Paladin fighting for Evil. It's pretty ludicrous...The "generic" classes have a real reason to be present in both factions (fighters, clerics, mages, rogues ecc. ecc.) due to their extremely "open" interpretation but when a new class is created with specific qualities then I no longer see a reason for having it represented on each side.

I conclude then by saying that in this specific, a Anti-paladin figure is a nonsense. Much better to create a class, perhaps similar, but which is not a mockery of a preexisting class which should uphold Good... :pirate

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2005, 05:30:57 AM »
I always thought that Paladin should be a kit (or prestige class in 3E) as opposed to a core class.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Borsook

  • off topic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Gender: Male
  • not a badger
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2005, 06:56:14 AM »
A small consideration...Personally I don't like the fact that a specific class (in this case Paladin) should be always "mirrored" on the other side of the fence (in this case Evil)...I never liked this kind of approach. I believe that two opposite ethical and moral concept should eventually bring to the development of specific classes if we want to matain a strong differentiation of identities.

It has no sense for me to see an Anti-Paladin fighting for Evil. It's pretty ludicrous...The "generic" classes have a real reason to be present in both factions (fighters, clerics, mages, rogues ecc. ecc.) due to their extremely "open" interpretation but when a new class is created with specific qualities then I no longer see a reason for having it represented on each side.

I conclude then by saying that in this specific, a Anti-paladin figure is a nonsense. Much better to create a class, perhaps similar, but which is not a mockery of a preexisting class which should uphold Good... :pirate
Actually a mirror of a paladin would be a chaotic-evil warrior with no code, just destruction. :pirate "Evil paladin" is a twisted concept, more akin to a fallen paladin by moral standards.
"Borsook seems like a pretty cool guy who offers his insight where appropriate... just very, very frequently." - Imrahil

Borsook's Chambers - Home of Borsook's Mods

Offline Zyraen

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2005, 07:51:30 AM »
There's no Reason why evil persons cannot be honorable or have a code of conduct.
I may be selfish, but I may be able to set that aside for a code of conduct.
I may have personal values of evil, but that doesn't mean I can't show discipline when I'm in an army.

Similarly, Roleplaying wise, there's no reason why an Evil Character cannot do good.
I might want to kill Firkraag for Carsomyr, and not give a heck for the deed, because I KNOW killing the dragon gives me a better reward. I still do good and gain the recognition.

Real life "evil" might not be far behind the concept of "good", in the sense of gaining reputation, promotions, recognition. A good person gains all of that ; so does an "evil" one. The driving force is different, the outward actions could well be the same.
For the sake of better benefit later, I set aside my current pleasure. Since that is technically motivated by self-beneif, that can be attributed as a form of evil.

In BG2, I don't have a problem roleplaying my evil party to a High Reputation, and later on (and possibly never) turning on the general populace at large with all the weapons the shopkeepers sold to me at a discount (at least, not until I installed EoU's discount for low Rep parties ;) )
Any good villain knows the best way to put a knife in is from behind, where it's unexpected.
(http://www.geocities.com/arkevaul/btlbn2.gif)
SoA Release - Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, & more

Offline Borsook

  • off topic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Gender: Male
  • not a badger
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2005, 08:59:52 AM »
Yes, but since paladins (lawful good) are chosen by good gods as the "goodiest" (concious form btw) wouldn't evil gods choose chaotic evil ones for their champions?
"Borsook seems like a pretty cool guy who offers his insight where appropriate... just very, very frequently." - Imrahil

Borsook's Chambers - Home of Borsook's Mods

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2005, 12:48:06 PM »
The Law-Chaos axis has no impact on how Good or Evil you are.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Borsook

  • off topic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Gender: Male
  • not a badger
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2005, 02:15:04 PM »
The Law-Chaos axis has no impact on how Good or Evil you are.
Hmm, I've never bought the independent axis view point, rather perceived it as 9 separate aligments. Looking at things like chaotic-neutral and true neutral always brought me to this conclusion.
"Borsook seems like a pretty cool guy who offers his insight where appropriate... just very, very frequently." - Imrahil

Borsook's Chambers - Home of Borsook's Mods

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2005, 03:37:50 PM »
Personally I don't like the fact that a specific class (in this case Paladin) should be always "mirrored" on the other side of the fence (in this case Evil)...I never liked this kind of approach. .... It has no sense for me to see an Anti-Paladin fighting for Evil.
Ah, but, referring to the list of things that Mr. Welch is no longer allowed to do in an RPG ( http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=banter;action=display;num=1121487866;start=0#0 ), I think number 64 is relevant: My paladin's battle cry is not "Good for the Good God". Evil Paladins do not fight to support Evil; they fight to support the cause and desires of their Evil god. They are not meant to be (or, at least, I do not mean them to be), as you put it, "a mockery of an existing class," but rather a sort of halfway point between Fighter and Cleric, which as you say, have a real reason to be present in both factions.

Offline Borsook

  • off topic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Gender: Male
  • not a badger
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2005, 01:57:45 AM »
Isn't fighter/cleric half way between fighter and a cleric? ;D
"Borsook seems like a pretty cool guy who offers his insight where appropriate... just very, very frequently." - Imrahil

Borsook's Chambers - Home of Borsook's Mods

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2005, 02:11:50 AM »
Six of Spades,

I do agree that there should be a champion of a Evil God (or just Evil, this is not the point) just like there is the class of the Paladin, Champion of a Good God (or Good). My point is: I'd like to rather have a new kind of champion (example: Uruk-hai might be considered the Champions of Evil in MERP - perhaps something similar could fit the situation) than a class that has the same tenant (but to Evil) and the same limitations (must be Human) and characteristics of a Paladin. I don't know if I made myself clear...Oh and by the way, did you really go through all the 300 points of what Mr Welch can no longer do ?  ;D

Offline Borsook

  • off topic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Gender: Male
  • not a badger
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2005, 07:53:47 AM »
BTW it might be nice to go for 3e like and give paladins to at least half-humans.
"Borsook seems like a pretty cool guy who offers his insight where appropriate... just very, very frequently." - Imrahil

Borsook's Chambers - Home of Borsook's Mods

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2005, 12:00:37 PM »
Isn't fighter/cleric half way between fighter and a cleric? ;D
Yes, but of course in a different way. It's ironic that the class (combination) that has fewer restrictions on behavior and can be any alignment is the one that is more skilled as a Priest.


I'd like to rather have a new kind of champion (example: Uruk-hai might be considered the Champions of Evil in MERP - perhaps something similar could fit the situation) than a class that has the same tenant (but to Evil) and the same limitations (must be Human) and characteristics of a Paladin.
Well, I'm with Lord Kain on that the stereotypical harbingers of Evil are more commonly pure warrior-types than religious-types: Religion implies morals and culture, and therefore the person can be dealt with on at least some levels, but the barbarian warrior-type is just going to spear you as you cling to the altar. Therefore, I would peg the Blackguard as being a Fighter kit (although one description of it, I believe it was in 3rd Edition, described the class as gaining spell levels in the same pattern as a Paladin...strange), and leave the Paladin kits to those to whom religious devotion is actually a major part of their background.
Uruk-Hai would be a Fighter kit as well, naturally only open to Half-Orcs....if one could think up disadvantages to balance out the kit's strengths, and I know Tolkien's Uruk-Hai didn't have any, besides arrogance. What's MERP, by the way?
My favorite is, "Before going to face the dragon, not allowed to glaze the elf."  ;D


I've been trying to get in touch with Reverendratbastard, but he doesn't seem to be around lately....let's see if he answers his Email. Anyway, a while back he made this comment in a related thread:
Quote
i have an issue of Dragon you might appreciate if you haven't already.  #106 iirc?  seven more paladin-types (the CE anti-paladin article was several years earlier) covering the rest of the alignment grid.  interesting (if occasionally munchkin) work.
What's especially interesting here is just what he meant by "paladin-types." Is that types of Paladins, or just warriors that are like Paladins? Either way, it should help round out the class, and add more roleplaying value once any munchkins are forcibly removed.

If I were to revamp the entire Paladin class, it would be something like this:
  • Open to all races with significant devotion to the gods, especially if they have their own pantheon.
  • Humans would recieve -2 bonuses to Saving Throws (relative to a Fighter), while Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and Gnomes would recieve -1, and Halflings and Dwarves would recieve no bonuses.
  • Rebalance (weaken) the existing kits so that the unkitted Paladin is no longer left far behind
  • Enhance the existing kits' unique attributes, e.g. the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead is more powerful than even a pure Cleric's.
  • Add kits based on particular gods; counting the Holy Liberator, that leaves room for five kits (installed separately, to avoid TDD-style "all or nothing"): Two Good, two Evil, & one Neutral.
  • The existing kits are focused more on abilities than gods, so they would span the Good-Evil axis: Cavalier and Inquisitor can be any Lawful alignment, Undead Hunters can be LG, LN, NG, or TN, and Liberators (with permission) can be any Chaotic.
  • Holy Avenger weapons could only be used by Lawful Good Paladins and Wizard Slayers.
  • Undecided on whether Unholy Reavers could be used by all Evil Paladins and Fighters, or just CE Paladins and Blackguards.

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2005, 03:30:03 PM »
Duh, Six, it doesn't make any sense for an Evil Cavalier to be specialized against Demons.

So right now I'm debating whether to split the kit into one trained to fight drakes (Dragons, Wyverns, possibly Snakes & Basilisks) and another trained to fight extraplanar beings (Demons, Planetars, & Devas), or keep both "Racial Enemies" in the Cavalier kit and seriously handicap their other offensive capabilities to compensate.

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2005, 03:44:40 PM »
A Lawful Evil one might be specialised to combat Demons, while a Chaotic Evil one's training might be primarily in combat against Devils.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Salk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2005, 03:24:02 AM »
Six,

MERP stands for Middle Earth Role Playing...The Uruk-hai proposal was just a mere example, by the way. I was thinking that many many kits have been created both as official kits and unofficial stuff and some are really interesting and very much welcomed but on the other side, I feel a little nostalgic about the "old good and simpler" rules and options...I must be aging (and I didn't even use the Wish spell...)  ;)

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Paladins falling
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2005, 12:22:56 PM »
A Lawful Evil one might be specialised to combat Demons, while a Chaotic Evil one's training might be primarily in combat against Devils.
I'd be very hesitant to let a Paladin become Chaotic simply over the Baatezu/Tanar'ri dichotomy. I'd rather simply assign the EFF files for THAC0/Damage bonuses based on alignment:
Good guys get +2 bonuses against Fallen Devas/Planetars/Solars and all demonic creatures,
Evil guys get +4 bonuses against non-fallen Devas/Planetars/Solars, +2 against Demons, and +1 against Devils,
and Neutral guys get +1 against all of them.
Not that anyone will actually want to play anything but a Good Cavalier, since 95% of all draconic & extraplanar creatures in the game are Evil.

Salk, now you're sounding like the dirt farmer in Order of the Stick. ;)

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: