Author Topic: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)  (Read 16665 times)

Offline jcompton

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The Illithium quest makes the quest much longer (you have to find the duergar's brother in the Temple) but fails to add any in-depth role playing or desirable reward (say, 400 pounds of illithium, which would be enough to complete both the statue and the Mace of Disruption).

The whole point of the Temple quest is that you have to make a hard decision about what's most important to you, and what's most important to the Temple, for that matter. If you're approaching everything from the standpoint that "more lQQt should result", then yes, you might be disappointed from time to time.
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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2005, 07:28:27 PM »
jcompton:  To some extent I agree with you, but for first time gamers there is no "choice".  The first time that I played BG2 I aquired the illithium for the temple without even knowing that I could later use it to improve the Mace of Disruption instead.  If the game were to force a situation wherein there was a clear choice between the good of the Temple and gaining a powerful item, your words would ring true.  But, as it stands, the game offers no such depth.  Also, I think that any mod that adds such a situation should take into account that the Temple might find equipping one of its priests with such a weapon far more desirable than possessing a silly statue.

SimDing0:  I look foward to it, then.  I look for one of two things in a quest mod:  in-depth roleplaying or a desirable reward (not necessarily a power-gamer item, just some incentive not to skip the quest ;-)

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Offline jcompton

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Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2005, 07:44:21 PM »
jcompton:  To some extent I agree with you, but for first time gamers there is no "choice".  The first time that I played BG2 I aquired the illithium for the temple without even knowing that I could later use it to improve the Mace of Disruption instead.  If the game were to force a situation wherein there was a clear choice between the good of the Temple and gaining a powerful item, your words would ring true.  But, as it stands, the game offers no such depth.

Is it a lack of "depth" if a farmer has to choose between eating his crop or saving it for seed?

I'll grant you that, given the way 95% of the game is designed (BG2 is fundamentally designed so that the player can win without too much trouble) this is an unusual situation. If you play some older games, such as the adventure games of the 80s, however, you'll find many such situations. (You find a bag of chocolate coins. You can eat them and they're delicious, but maybe there's someone much later in the game who will only take payment in chocolate coins. Oh, you ate them? Sucks to be you.)

Quote
Also, I think that any mod that adds such a situation should take into account that the Temple might find equipping one of its priests with such a weapon far more desirable than possessing a silly statue.

Most of the priests of the temple aren't out killing vampires every day. They're sweeping the floors and tending to the mundane concerns of their flock. A statue is far more "useful" to them anyway.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2005, 07:56:11 PM »
Besides, if you'd gone to rescue Imoen first, as any right-thinking follower of Lathander or Helm would do (or alternatley, if you'd gone to show Irenicus his own guts as any right-thinking Talosian would do), you'd be in chapter six by the time you started the quest and woudl probably be able to find out about this option.
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Offline Kuemper

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Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2005, 08:08:40 PM »

Is it a lack of "depth" if a farmer has to choose between eating his crop or saving it for seed?


I know I don't know anything about modding, but this just screamed at me to say something.
One, I always get the MoD+2. I find the immunity to level drain more important than Helm's statue. Two, in reference to the farmer comment, (I come from a farming family) most farmers grow enough crop for A) food and B) seeds for the next growing cycle. If they don't, they're pretty stupid (not to mention hungry and/or poor) farmers.

I guess that makes me a 'cheater'.  :D

Hmm, maybe I should CLUAConsole:CreateItem("IACORN03") for my folks this year.

  ;) ;D ;D
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2005, 09:37:20 PM »
What if you only have two-hundred pounds of seed, though?  I may not know much about farming, but I do know that one needs two-hundred pounds of seed to upgrade a mace or make a statue.
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Offline Sir-Kill

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2005, 11:02:57 PM »
whee! I get to swing a 200 lbs. mace!  ;D
my guess that a few grams would be more than enough to coat the mace for up grade and a couple of few pounds to replace it, either way the amount would not be missed by an uppidy artist.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 11:04:28 PM by Sir-Kill »
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Offline jester

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2005, 01:22:16 AM »
If anything I find most games severely lacking in this department. Before I read about Ruad I carried along everything and the kitchen sink, because I expected to put very many things (even the books) to good use in the future. Not loosing the rewards of the other choices makes a decision futile and thus makes it a lame fedex quest. The problem IMO is that I sometimes tend to have a list in mind of the items and rewards I can get doing certain quests which reduces the replay fun. Perhaps a reward system like the one in IWD2 would stop that.
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Offline Drew

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 01:40:52 AM »
whee! I get to swing a 200 lbs. mace!  ;D
my guess that a few grams would be more than enough to coat the mace for up grade and a couple of few pounds to replace it, either way the amount would not be missed by an uppidy artist.
That sounds like a (mini) mod idea.  I'm pretty damn sure that sarles wouldn't notice if you gave him 198 lbs of illithium instead of 200 pounds.  It's always bothered me as well that you don't get the illithium back.  Cromwell should probably mention if he plans on keeping the rest of the illithium as payment, no?
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Offline Kuemper

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2005, 06:54:09 AM »
What if you only have two-hundred pounds of seed, though?  I may not know much about farming, but I do know that one needs two-hundred pounds of seed to upgrade a mace or make a statue.

Then I won't have to worry about little Ghreyfain's running around, will I?.  :pirate

The better comparision Jason should've made was with cattle or hogs.

I didn't know you could upgrade the damned MoD until I read a Dan Simpson's WT.

For first time players - you're best off doing what Jester did: packrat EVERYTHING you find. Stuff it inside one of the tables/barrels/crates in Athkatla. I typically use the ones in front of the Copper Coronet.

Other than becoming a packrat, (and reading WT) the only in game way to find out about the upgrade is to stuff MoD in the bag of holding and talk to Cromwell. IIRC, he digs through your stuff and mentions something about needing a special metal. And depending on your style of gameplay (ie: how fast you save Imoen), reloading from a save isn't always a choice.

I do agree that making the choice is very roleplay. What's more important to your PC: helping the temple of Helm (and thusly increasing the workload of countless acolytes and workman's comp. suits due to repetative stress disorder from polishing) or sticking it to a snooty 'ar-teest' by blagging him the wrong material?
The opinions expressed in the above post are those of Kuemper, unless specifically cited from other sources.

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 08:41:53 AM »
<----   another one who didn't know you could use Illithium with the mace until I was told on the 'net.

Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 10:16:03 AM »
Quote
Is it a lack of "depth" if a farmer has to choose between eating his crop or saving it for seed?

I'll grant you that, given the way 95% of the game is designed (BG2 is fundamentally designed so that the player can win without too much trouble) this is an unusual situation. If you play some older games, such as the adventure games of the 80s, however, you'll find many such situations. (You find a bag of chocolate coins. You can eat them and they're delicious, but maybe there's someone much later in the game who will only take payment in chocolate coins. Oh, you ate them? Sucks to be you.)

This kind of situation is just annoying.  Do you, as a player, honestly enjoy having to 'packrat' every item that you come across, just because it may (or may not) be useful elsewhere in the game?  Do you enjoy having an inventory of several hundred items that you're afraid to use or sell because you might (or might not) need them later?  I think it blows donkey, myself.  I think there should, at the least, be some sort of hint that an item might possess another use.

Quote
Most of the priests of the temple aren't out killing vampires every day. They're sweeping the floors and tending to the mundane concerns of their flock. A statue is far more "useful" to them anyway.

The number of priests tasked to each job is irrelevant.  The hunters of the Temple stand to gain an very useful weapon which will enable them better protect the flock.  The improved Mace of Disruption requires the illithium.  The statue, while it may magnificent and all, can be made from any material by any talented artist, when it comes down to it.

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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 10:27:55 AM »
Besides, if you'd gone to rescue Imoen first, as any right-thinking follower of Lathander or Helm would do (or alternatley, if you'd gone to show Irenicus his own guts as any right-thinking Talosian would do), you'd be in chapter six by the time you started the quest and woudl probably be able to find out about this option.

Interesting that you think so.  I nearly always complete this quest early if I am a cleric.  After all, if you are a cleric, then the first place that you are sent (and would logically go even if you were not sent) is the Temple district... and I generally accept all the Temple quests to raise the necessary money and experience to go after Imoen/Irenicus.

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Offline jester

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2005, 11:38:18 AM »
CLUAConsole:CreateItem("bag31") made my packrat life easier. I just told myself I found it in E's room instead of Spellhold.

Quote
The statue, while it may magnificent and all, can be made from any material by any talented artist, when it comes down to it.

@ The people better served by yet another mace?
You are definitely not an art person when it comes to Illithium statues. :P
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Offline Kuemper

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2005, 12:02:40 PM »
Scrounged up an old save game the check with Cromwell. I ditched every component piece I knew of and kept only the MoD+1. The dwarf didn't saw boo about it.

Does this mean the upgraded MoD+2 is an Easter egg?  :)

I don't like packratting everything either. Usually, I just play through, selling the stuff I don't need/want/use. Then I play again after reading WT and things off the net.

The opinions expressed in the above post are those of Kuemper, unless specifically cited from other sources.

"Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'every man for himself'. And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up."

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Offline Kuemper

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2005, 12:32:28 PM »
The statue, while it may magnificent and all, can be made from any material by any talented artist, when it comes down to it.

Just recalled - the high priest mentions Prism would've been commissioned to do the work, but alas, his untimely death. Now I feel bad about his suicide in Nashkel!  :'(   Hmmm, there would be a mod thing. Keep Prism alive in BG1 and he'll show up to make the statue in BG2, not requiring the illithium(sp) at all.
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Offline Rabain

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2005, 02:26:00 PM »
Perhaps changing the description of the Ore would be easier?

"This is 200 stones of pure illithium ore. Illithium is renowned for both its luster and its unique property of never becoming soiled. Illithium is also prized by armorer's for it's use in creating magical items."

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Offline jcompton

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 02:37:06 PM »
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?
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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2005, 04:00:08 PM »
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?

My only presumption is that you should have the choice.  Personally, I would enjoy being able to do both.  But if its a choice between the two, then the player should be aware of such.

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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 04:03:57 PM »
Another interesting option for Evil players:  Kill Sir Sarles, insuring that none of the churches may commission his services.  Recieve reward from the Temple of Talos.  Use Illithium to gain the MoD+2.  Hehe.  Now that's some roleplaying, if I do say so.   :P

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Offline Empath

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 04:08:07 PM »
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?

Oh, puh-leeeze, I just poked my head in since Kuemper was fiddlin' with BG2 earlier and I know the answer to that:

They're succumbing to their inner-twinks.  ;D  They want to have better weapons.

Seriously, tho: ---UPDATE--- K was testing situations with Cromwell, and if you have JUST the Illithium and no MoD on hand, he comments that he could do something if you find a MoD... still, it's an awkward arrangement to just happen to swing by Cromwell's while on you way back to the temple with stuff you know is intended for something other than buffing your weapons.  Otherwise, as many people said - you never know you could upgrade your MoD.


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Offline Empath

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2005, 04:10:37 PM »
Another interesting option for Evil players:  Kill Sir Sarles, insuring that none of the churches may commission his services.  Recieve reward from the Temple of Talos.  Use Illithium to gain the MoD+2.  Hehe.  Now that's some roleplaying, if I do say so.   :P

Aye, apt roleplaying, with a little twinkish rollplaying too, but that's just evil!   Why, oh WHY, would anyone do that?  :pirate

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Offline Kuemper

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2005, 04:20:32 PM »
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?

Jase, I presume nothing.

I hate frickin' undead. I've hated undead since 1st edition. That's why I want MoD+2.

As Empath stated above - the game doesn't give you much choice. Unless for some ungodly reason, you've been packratting 200# of metal in your pack, you don't know what good it's for except for a blippin' statue. I think the point Wounded Lion makes is that there might be more OBVIOUS choices. I agree.

The entire game is skewed toward being good. Or am I presuming that as well?
The opinions expressed in the above post are those of Kuemper, unless specifically cited from other sources.

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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2005, 04:28:14 PM »
Unless for some ungodly reason, you've been packratting 200# of metal in your pack, you don't know what good it's for except for a blippin' statue.
As Rabain mentioned, if the description makes it evident that your character *does* know its other capabilities, it works well. Presented with this knowledge, the player has the choice between deciding to hold on in the hope that they'll get the opportunity to use it as the description mentions (why may or may not pay off to their knowledge), or to give it away as the quest requires. This is distinctly less cheesy in my eyes with presenting the player with a blind question of "do you want to finish the quest or get a powerful item?" It promotes greater roleplaying and character awareness, and less out-of-game consideration of which path will get you the biggest reward.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 04:32:20 PM by SimDing0™ »

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Illithium Choices (was Re: What are your recommended mods?)
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2005, 04:30:57 PM »
You misread that, actually.  He's suggesting it be changed.  The italics are his suggested addition.  Currently it just reads "This is 200 stones of pure illithium ore. Illithium is renowned for both its luster and its unique property of never becoming soiled."
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