Author Topic: Once more with the insta-poison thing.  (Read 7725 times)

Offline SimDing0ô

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2005, 02:48:30 PM »
I'd just scrap all the damn slow poison/neutralize poison/protect from poison stuff and go with a single antidote thing that protects from and removes any poison effects.

Offline ElfBane

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2005, 04:56:26 PM »
I'm on the fence about this. Yes it was a shocker at first, and was part of the reason I lost Adjantis, but you just have to improvise,adapt, and overcome. I had to rethink they way I went about combat in these areas. My outlook is a bit skewed though, because I have four characters that can cast Slow Poison, so it makes it easier.

raptor

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2005, 07:03:26 PM »
Just curious, why not make a "middle way" as a temporarly solution ? make the poison do more damage over a shorter period of time than before. example if vanilla bg had posion that did 15 dmg over 15 rounds, let it do 15 dmg over 5 rounds, 3 dmg a round instead of 1. old antidotes and neutrlise poison still works, but you would still suffer from the poison.

just a sugestion, as usual feel free to disregard.

Offline Shadowblade

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2005, 07:52:51 AM »
The reason BioWare did it that way might be because those particular spiders (large and huge) don't even HAVE poison type F, Save or Die. They have poison type A, which is 15 hp damage after a 15 minute onset time. I think counting down the -1 hp per minute adds tension and is more realistic, but the all-at-once is a nonsense. -3 hp per round would add even more tension. The way it is now is just annoying.

Ettercaps have a poison similar to type F, but its Death after a 10d4 round onset delay, not instantly. A -1 hp countdown for 15 rounds followed by a 1000 hp WHACK would add even more tension and make the Antidotes, Slow Poison and Netutralise Poison spells have some use.

The Elixir of Life as a "Protection from Poison" potion is an illegal item, isn't, in terms of true 2nd edit AD&D rules?

Unfortunately, the Save or Die approach for the Greater Basilisk breath, Giant Spider, Phase Spider and Wyvern sting is quite correct according to the rules, but I still think a short delayed onset or a -3 hp countdown for 3 rounds followed by death would be fairer, also in p&p, not just FotD.

But then, a Wyvern is basically a humongous, giant bat with a scorpion's tail and a Giant spider is absolutely monstrous in size, like as big as a bus. Given that microscopic amounts of tetrodotoxin, ricin, botulinum toxin, curare, cyanide etc can kill a man in a very short time if administered correctly, the highly complex mixture of necrotising, degradative, nucleolytic, proteolytic and lipolytic enzymes, neurotoxins, muscle, nerve and respiratory inhibitors which make up the average arachnid venom would be quite damaging. Especially if a sting or fang the size of a harpoon pierces your chest and injects two or three pints of this stuff into you. This is what gets into your character when a giant spider bites him. Don't forget that spiders paralyse and digest their prey's innards and turn their insides to soup before sucking the husk dry.

I think a spider the size of a bus could do this to you and me with no problem. Save or Die. Echon's got it right, there.

What I find annoying is that the damn things keep respawning even though we killed Centeol and the Wyvern breeders and the Wyverns. Hello?!?! Ecology?!? Sustainable population limit?!? Over-hunting?!? Gene pool depletion?!? Birth/Death Rate Dis-equilibrium?!?

We even tried to sleep in the Wyvern cave, and one spawned right there every single time for eight attempts until we had to sleep outside due to a lack of spells and hit points. I've sold dozens of those heads. My Druid, Cleric, Necromancer, Diviner, Transmuter, Illusionist/Thief party are about level 7 on average and we're rich beyond our wildest dreams. Those ludicrously over-priced potions and magick items in Chapter 1 are starting to look quite cheap as we approach Chapter 4.

Still, all good fun.


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Offline Echon

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2005, 05:29:50 PM »
The reason BioWare did it that way might be because those particular spiders (large and huge) don't even HAVE poison type F, Save or Die.

Yes, I know, I have NOT GIVEN them type F poison. Huge spiders deal 15 points of damage instantly, if the save is failed. There are no large spiders in the game.

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Ettercaps have a poison similar to type F, but its Death after a 10d4 round onset delay, not instantly. A -1 hp countdown for 15 rounds followed by a 1000 hp WHACK would add even more tension and make the Antidotes, Slow Poison and Netutralise Poison spells have some use.

You do not need to tell me these things as I already know. Onset times are not in the mod as they did not work. Also, antidotes and the Slow Poison and Neutralize Poison spells *are* useful. They have been altered to take into account the way poison works now. I have said this several times, but nobody seems to notice. Have you had a look at their current descriptions?

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The Elixir of Life as a "Protection from Poison" potion is an illegal item, isn't, in terms of true 2nd edit AD&D rules?

Assuming that you are referring to the Elixir of Health, as there are not Elixirs of Life in the game, no, I do not think so. It already cures poison and I do not think it is farfetched that it also protects against it.

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Unfortunately, the Save or Die approach for the Greater Basilisk breath, Giant Spider, Phase Spider and Wyvern sting is quite correct according to the rules, but I still think a short delayed onset or a -3 hp countdown for 3 rounds followed by death would be fairer, also in p&p, not just FotD.

It is not Echon's House Rules Mod I am making. I do not agree with everything in AD&D 2E but in this mod I try to follow the rules as that is the primary aim.

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But then, a Wyvern is basically a humongous, giant bat with a scorpion's tail and a Giant spider is absolutely monstrous in size, like as big as a bus. Given that microscopic amounts of tetrodotoxin, ricin, botulinum toxin, curare, cyanide etc can kill a man in a very short time if administered correctly, the highly complex mixture of necrotising, degradative, nucleolytic, proteolytic and lipolytic enzymes, neurotoxins, muscle, nerve and respiratory inhibitors which make up the average arachnid venom would be quite damaging. Especially if a sting or fang the size of a harpoon pierces your chest and injects two or three pints of this stuff into you. This is what gets into your character when a giant spider bites him. Don't forget that spiders paralyse and digest their prey's innards and turn their insides to soup before sucking the husk dry.

AD&D is supposed to be funny, not super realistic. If that is the direction in which you want to go, I would like to see any of your characters stand up after being hit by a sword or struck by an arrow.

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What I find annoying is that the damn things keep respawning even though we killed Centeol and the Wyvern breeders and the Wyverns. Hello?!?! Ecology?!? Sustainable population limit?!? Over-hunting?!? Gene pool depletion?!? Birth/Death Rate Dis-equilibrium?!?

We even tried to sleep in the Wyvern cave, and one spawned right there every single time for eight attempts until we had to sleep outside due to a lack of spells and hit points. I've sold dozens of those heads. My Druid, Cleric, Necromancer, Diviner, Transmuter, Illusionist/Thief party are about level 7 on average and we're rich beyond our wildest dreams. Those ludicrously over-priced potions and magick items in Chapter 1 are starting to look quite cheap as we approach Chapter 4.

Spawn points cannot be altered ingame. Either they are there or they are not. Besides, Centeol is hardly the creator of all the spiders.

I have not done much with the random encounters that occur when trying to rest so they remain largely the same as in the original game. Only a few of the exploitable ones have been removed.

-Echon

Offline Shadowblade

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2005, 12:22:57 PM »
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AD&D is supposed to be funny, not super realistic

I was actually backing you up in that paragraph, Save or Die.

When a spider that big runs at you and you are only 3rd level, you should just RUN AWWAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!


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Offline Shadowblade

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2005, 12:50:28 PM »
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Yes, I know, I have NOT GIVEN them type F poison. Huge spiders deal 15 points of damage instantly, if the save is failed.

I didn't say you did, but they have Type A poison, which does 15 hp damage after 15 minutes, not an instant 15 or nothing on a save. As you can't do a delayed onset, you should do a -1 hp per round for 15 rounds countdown, which is what BioWare did in the first place.

You see, I appreciate your mod and you've done a great job on a lot of the rules fixes etc, but I don't see why you changed the delayed onset poisons and then changed the spells and potions so that they could be exploited against poison Type F. Those spells and potions were never any use against Poison Type F unless you dis-envenomed the creature itself. Otherwise they only work on poison already in the body. If you are re-poisoned, there's no protection. If you do anything else, itís not true 2nd edit AD&D. And, when the Slow Poison duration expires, the poison is still there to kill you if it hasn't been Neutralised. Same if you Raise someone who dies from the poison. Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! Cast Raise Dead, 1 hp, Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! And rest...

Leave Type A as it was, leave the spells and potions as they were and just make Type F poison do it's thing. Save or Die. You shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with a Giant spider, whacking it with a sword anyway. Not with the god-awful random number generator in BG I. You should run away, shoot a missile, fire a spell, run away etc. Haste is always useful. But watch out for those webs.

For Ettercaps, lets say a mean onset time of 25 rounds and let it do 1 hp damage per 3 rounds for 24 rounds and then 1000 hp on the final round.

For Wyverns, Giants Spiders, Greater Basilisk Breath and Phase Spiders, do it just as you have, because that is the 2nd edit (and the First Edition) way.



I ask the following purely because I'm interested.

Wy can you not do a zero damage per round effect in one struct followed by a 1000 hp in the final round?

Do the Greater Basilisk and Phase Spider venoms have the +2 and -2 to Saving throws?

Does the Wraith Spider venom reduce CON by 1 point for 1d4+1 rounds, save each round?




Cheers!


Offline Echon

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2005, 04:19:26 PM »
I didn't say you did, but they have Type A poison, which does 15 hp damage after 15 minutes, not an instant 15 or nothing on a save. As you can't do a delayed onset, you should do a -1 hp per round for 15 rounds countdown, which is what BioWare did in the first place.

I do not think so. Since the real thing is not possible, I had to decide on one of the different ways something alternative could be made, and this is what I chose.

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You see, I appreciate your mod and you've done a great job on a lot of the rules fixes etc, but I don't see why you changed the delayed onset poisons and then changed the spells and potions so that they could be exploited against poison Type F. Those spells and potions were never any use against Poison Type F unless you dis-envenomed the creature itself. Otherwise they only work on poison already in the body. If you are re-poisoned, there's no protection. If you do anything else, itís not true 2nd edit AD&D.

It was either instantanous effects all the way or BioWare method. I wanted the former. Considering the feedback I have gotten so far, I do not think the poison kills you outright should be made any more dangerous. And finally, no matter what I do, it is not going to be completely true to the rules.

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And, when the Slow Poison duration expires, the poison is still there to kill you if it hasn't been Neutralised. Same if you Raise someone who dies from the poison. Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! Cast Raise Dead, 1 hp, Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! And rest...

Engine limitations.

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I ask the following purely because I'm interested.

Wy can you not do a zero damage per round effect in one struct followed by a 1000 hp in the final round?

Because it is not possible. If it was, I would have done it already. The above would require two poison opcodes. The first with no damage would likely work but you cannot delay poison so there would be no 1000 hp damage at the end of it.

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Do the Greater Basilisk and Phase Spider venoms have the +2 and -2 to Saving throws?

Yes.

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Does the Wraith Spider venom reduce CON by 1 point for 1d4+1 rounds, save each round?

It drains Constitution but it does not count as poison as poison is only capable of dealing damage.

-Echon

Offline Shadowblade

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Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2005, 11:11:37 AM »
Thanks. It's nice that you're open to discussion on ways to improve the mod. I wouldn't want you to think I was banging on at you or being too negative.

But I stil have to say the Ettercap and type A poison is better as a countdown as you have a chance to neutralise it before you die. If you can't have a slow count followed by 1000 hp, why not a rapid count - like, 5 hp per round for 35 rounds would kill most characters. As it is, Ettercaps kill instantly, which they are not meant to do.

But I think that what you've done with the Type F poison is true to the rules, actually.


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