Author Topic: Why 96 hit points?  (Read 18700 times)

Offline Lu

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Why 96 hit points?
« on: March 14, 2005, 07:09:14 PM »
  Really, why does Cailean have so many hit points? For a level 8 ranger with 16 CON it is 8d10+16,
 that makes between 24 to 96 hp. So, why 96 hp, not 24?

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2005, 07:16:02 PM »
My guess is that they created the character on whatever difficulty level gives you maximum hit points.  (Does this mean Cailean's a sissy?)
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Offline Kismet

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2005, 07:22:38 PM »
He was created on normal difficulty.  I actually didn't work out the dice roll calculations but took whatever the game gave me.
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Offline Lu

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2005, 07:28:23 PM »
  I don't ask how you set HP to maximum. I ask why you don't drop them down

Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2005, 07:34:23 PM »
Normal Difficulty = Maximum HP. None of the other NPCs in the game start out with that, as far as I can tell-- as it is Cailean is just barely behind Korgan in the HP rankings, which doesn't seem right. Using the High Average Method of calculating hitpoints he'd have 68 HP, which I believe would put him about on par with Minsc.

Offline Lu

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2005, 07:52:54 PM »
   At last! I thought I was the only one who cared
  Original Bioware NPC's:
 Minsc, level 7 (HD 7d10+14) - 69 hp (15 hp below maximum, ie 84)
 Minsc, lev 8 (8d10+16) - 79 hp (96 max)
 Keldorn, lev 8 (8d10+24) - 84 hp (max 104)
 Mazzy, lev 8 (8d10+16) - 78 hp (96 max)
 Valygar, lev 8 (8d10+16) - 78 hp (96 max)
                                       and so on
   In mods:
  Chloe (7d10+14) - 84 hp (max)
  Yasraena (9d10+0) - 90 hp (max)
  and so on

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2005, 07:56:24 PM »
Out of curiosity, what does Kelsey have?  Heheh.

Never mind, I just looked at his .cre file.  At level 9, he has 32 hp.  So pretty high.  Oh, that'd also be 41 with his con, and 50 with his cloak.  I feel a bit guilty, now.  Heh.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 07:59:32 PM by Ghreyfain »
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Offline the bigg

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2005, 08:01:30 PM »
You should pester the G3 tweak pack team to make available "average starting HP for party-joinable creatures" option in the creature HP fix  :)
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Offline Kismet

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2005, 08:07:34 PM »
Heh, actually, looking into his .cre files it appears that screenshot is rather old.  His HP are: level 8 - 70, level 9 - 80, level 11 - 86 and level 12 - 90.  So, higher than average but not maxed out.
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Offline Lu

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2005, 10:18:42 PM »
 
Quote
His HP are: level 8 - 70, level 9 - 80, level 11 - 86 and level 12 - 90

 In .cre file it only shows base HP. So 70 at level 8 with 16 CON actually means 70+16=86 hp on creation
 Dropping it in .cre file down to say, 64 will give 80 hp altogether, quite a reasonable score

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2005, 10:38:08 PM »
Quote
His HP are: level 8 - 70, level 9 - 80, level 11 - 86 and level 12 - 90

 In .cre file it only shows base HP. So 70 at level 8 with 16 CON actually means 70+16=86 hp on creation
 Dropping it in .cre file down to say, 64 will give 80 hp altogether, quite a reasonable score

Just out of curiousity, why is it so important to you that he *not* have the maximum number of hit points possible?

Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2005, 11:50:45 PM »
Because it doesn't jive with the rest of the NPCs in the game. Because even the PC doesn't get max HP if you happen to be playing with Core Difficulty. Because it just *looks weird* for the half-elf archer to beat out everyone but Korgan in the HP game, and come damn close even then.

Offline Lu

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2005, 07:34:58 AM »
  The last mod that I played was Yasraena, if 'played' is appropriate word here. I installed
 the mod, made it thru CI, met the Drow lass and had her joined. Of course, I immediately
 looked at her character page. Oh my, her ridiculously high strength, HP at maximum
 possible, an additional attack per round for no reason, and extremely high CHA - all this made
 me sick. If this is not an overpowed character, than what is? So I just uninstalled the mod never
 to play it again
    But of course, tastes differ

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2005, 09:50:40 AM »
  The last mod that I played was Yasraena, if 'played' is appropriate word here. I installed
 the mod, made it thru CI, met the Drow lass and had her joined. Of course, I immediately
 looked at her character page. Oh my, her ridiculously high strength, HP at maximum
 possible, an additional attack per round for no reason, and extremely high CHA - all this made
 me sick. If this is not an overpowed character, than what is? So I just uninstalled the mod never
 to play it again
    But of course, tastes differ

Indeed they do. While I might note in passing that a character has a lot of hit points or is exceptionallly strong for a character of that race and class, it is way, way down on my list of issues that determine whether a NPC is worth playing or not.

I'm sure the mod authors can make up their own minds on the subject, but personally I find Corvis' argument that having a Cailean with max HP would look out of place with the other NPCs to be *much* more compelling than someone's personal antipathy toward NPCs they consider to be "overpowered", no matter how heartfelt those feelings may be.

Offline Lu

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2005, 10:16:23 AM »
Quote
I find Corvis' argument that having a Cailean with max HP would look out of place with the other NPCs to be *much* more compelling than someone's personal antipathy toward NPCs they consider to be "overpowered", no matter how heartfelt those feelings may be.

   Personal antipathy? Heartfelt feelings? Would that I wanted to bother anybody with my personal feelings.
 It seems to me that you just don't understand the whole issue

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2005, 11:16:44 AM »
Quote
I find Corvis' argument that having a Cailean with max HP would look out of place with the other NPCs to be *much* more compelling than someone's personal antipathy toward NPCs they consider to be "overpowered", no matter how heartfelt those feelings may be.

   Personal antipathy? Heartfelt feelings? Would that I wanted to bother anybody with my personal feelings.
 It seems to me that you just don't understand the whole issue

Oh, so there is an subjective reason of vital importance, (other than "it makes you sick", that is) that Cailean should not have max HP? Please enlighten me.

Offline Lu

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2005, 11:32:49 AM »
Quote
Oh, so there is an subjective reason of vital importance, (other than "it makes you sick", that is) that Cailean should not have max HP? Please enlighten me.

 Perhaps I will, if you change the tone. Otherwise stop adressing personally to me, please. Or PM me, I don't mind

Offline Black Robed One

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2005, 11:36:28 AM »

Personal antipathy? Heartfelt feelings? Would that I wanted to bother anybody with my personal feelings. It seems to me that you just don't understand the whole issue


I second that, actually. I said it once in the other Cailean-related topic and I’ll say it again, if it is power you are after, why don't you simply play with a party of "extra" PCs? Your party will be far more powerful this way. Or simply use cheats/editors, for that matter. Why bother with legality if all you seem to want is to “smite things as easily as possible”?!



Oh, so there is an subjective reason of vital importance, (other than "it makes you sick", that is) that Cailean should not have max HP? Please enlighten me.


There are, actually. You know, like making the character look realistic? Some people find it a little unrealistic when a half-elven archer has almost as many HP as a dwarven fighter of about the same level… But you probably don’t understand what I am talking about, ne? No offense meant, but you look like a person who don’t quite understand the meaning of words “role-playing” in “role-playing game”.

P.S.

Seriously, I kinda fail to see what makes so many players to “powerplay” in Baldur’s Gate II. I haven’t played BG2 for a several years, and as I resumed playing it now, I encounter nothing that would make me powerplay in there (I am against powerplaying in general, actually, so I would likely take challenges with more “average” characters even IF there were need for powerplaying). Sure there are challenges here and there, but none of them are anywhere near being impossible; actually, most of these challenges can be beaten easily enough.

Offline Finelines

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2005, 11:45:34 AM »
Reasons to "powerplay" ?  Boredom, playing the game so many times you know how to beat it regardless, trying something different, getting completely sick of reloading.

I still use the same tactics, I don't just go in and hack and slash - it just saves me getting killed as often.  Oh, it also saves the person you're trying to romance getting killed, too.

But - each to their own.
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2005, 11:59:51 AM »
There was a point in here somewhere before people started getting snippy, and for my part, yes, I agree that Cailean the Archer should not be more durable than Minsc the Man-Mountain.

(And, yeah, I realize that Kelsey has a lot of HP himself. I do entertain the notion of taking powers out of his cloak and so forth every so often... Ghareth probably has a ton of HP too, since I probably made him on Normal rules as well. Aaaahh!)
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Offline SeanFan

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2005, 12:03:36 PM »
Quote
Oh, so there is an subjective reason of vital importance, (other than "it makes you sick", that is) that Cailean should not have max HP? Please enlighten me.

 Perhaps I will, if you change the tone. Otherwise stop adressing personally to me, please. Or PM me, I don't mind

That's funny, since the only reason I got involved in this discussion at all was because I thought the tone of your initial posts left something to be desired.

But hey, if it floats your boat, feel free to ignore any and all of my future posts.

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2005, 12:30:21 PM »

Personal antipathy? Heartfelt feelings? Would that I wanted to bother anybody with my personal feelings. It seems to me that you just don't understand the whole issue

I second that, actually. I said it once in the other Cailean-related topic and I’ll say it again, if it is power you are after, why don't you simply play with a party of "extra" PCs? Your party will be far more powerful this way. Or simply use cheats/editors, for that matter. Why bother with legality if all you seem to want is to “smite things as easily as possible”?!

Is this "you" referring to me? Gee, I'd really like to see a quote where I said anything remotely like that. On the contrary, those issues are obviously far less important to me than they are to you and Lu.

Quote
There are, actually. You know, like making the character look realistic? Some people find it a little unrealistic when a half-elven archer has almost as many HP as a dwarven fighter of about the same level… But you probably don’t understand what I am talking about, ne? No offense meant, but you look like a person who don’t quite understand the meaning of words “role-playing” in “role-playing game”.

You know, "Don't take this the wrong way, but that dress really makes you look fat." never really works as a disclaimer. Neither does, "No offense, but you're clearly too stupid to understand what we're talking about."

You seem to be making a lot of unwarranted assumptions based on my few short comments in this thread. Just to be clear, I am NOT a powerplayer, never have been. I simply do not CARE whether an NPCs stats are maxed out or not. It is a non-issue to me. I was honestly curious why Lu was so concerned that Cailean might have the max number of hit points. Corvis provided a completely rational explanation, whereas Lu's reasoning seemed more based on a personal dislike of "overpowered" characters.

All clear now?

Offline St. Josephine

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2005, 12:58:41 PM »
First things first: we appreciate this discussion of Cailean's hit points since it brought up comparisons that we should have been more aware of (re: comparable Bioware NPCs), especially in advance of his release, since release = set in stone = like it or lump it!  :D 

We will be looking into making his hit points perhaps a bit more in line with the existing NPCs of a similar class.

I have to admit, sheepishly, that I didn't really notice it all that much while testing.  He has a lot of attacks from bounty hunters during his quest and the hit points came in handy with all that back-stabbing going on.  Any reduction in hit points will also force us to make adjustments to these attacks.

All we ask from here on out is to keep the discussion civil and respectful of the feelings of others.  Thanks.  :)
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2005, 03:49:51 PM »
  The last mod that I played was Yasraena...

And people say I'm harsh for murdering Chloe in Brynnlaw. :)
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Offline Operadragon

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Re: Why 96 hit points?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2005, 03:52:52 PM »
If we were to get into *actual roleplaying*...

Oh forget it...*points up*

Just cross-apply what St. Jo said.

And stop being snippy...that's a job for scissors.

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