Author Topic: TUTU Credo and additions  (Read 24280 times)

Offline jester

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2005, 12:04:16 PM »
Shouldn't TUTU be a smallest common denominator platform to allow modders to take it from there without major story changes?
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Offline Andyr

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2005, 12:08:04 PM »
I would certainly agree with Domi (Ashara) on most points.

Fixing actual bugs is fine.

Changing dialogues, items, quest rewards, NPC stats and so on is in my opinion not fine. People might not want these tweaks, and they're certainly controversial in many cases as this thread has shown (even 'consistency' fixes). Who says Sarevok might not get Tazok raised if you killed him previously, for example? Firkraag does it. There's no need to 'fix' these things; and including them in a default package will doubtless cause other headaches.

Fixes are good to be fixed, tweaks not so. :)

I am also aware that the .DLG fixes can make the Journal Entries component of Tutufix cause problems - I will try to recode that component to work with fixes from Dudleyville. But would really rather prefer if things which are not actual bugs were left unchanged.

I am willing to go through a list of all the changes and post which I think are actual fixes (instances of Rieltar Anchev being callled Reiltar Costak, for example) and which are not.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2005, 12:11:54 PM »
Whew, this thread got long very fast, so I'll admit that I haven't read a lot of it yet. :)

I think jester has the right of it, and Sim and I have been discussing on trimming down the Dudleyville package that ships with Tutu, to include only those fixes that can be considered just that: fixes.  Arbitrarily adding stats and shuffling proficiencies around might make sense logically, but I still think they're tweaks, and won't be included.

On the other side of the coin, coding up a bunch of a mod based on something that really does seem to me like a developer oversight is all well and good, but it sounds more like a change that the mod should make, rather than something that should be assumed to be developer intent.  Making the changes shouldn't be too difficult, I think.  Simply check the differences between the current BG1NPC scripts and the Dudleyfixed ones, and shuffle things around in future versions of the mod.  Yes, it'll be a bit more work, and I know frustrating it is changing mods around because of new features in tools, or fixes in games, or what have you.  In the long run, I think, it's worth it.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2005, 12:14:16 PM »
Not everyone will agree with Dudley's 'fixes'... Some people might not want them. So why base other mods on the assumption that they have Dudleyfix installed? Especially when the modders fall into this camp?
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2005, 12:17:10 PM »
Because having tonnes of different variants of a "base" install is going to make troubleshooting people's problems insanely difficult.

On the one hand you have people who think that everything Dudley has done should be included, because they all make sense.
On the other, you have people who want to exclude all the fixes that mean they'll have to recode stuff. :)

Unless someone wants to step up to the plate and mirror all the 800 or so fixes Dudley's made, in a Tutu edition, I think including it as a base (or at least those fixes that can truly be called pure fixes) is the way to go.  Not to say that some fixes shouldn't also be re-done to be more mod-friendly; see Narrat.cre/Dradeel.
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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2005, 12:17:59 PM »
I totally quote (and hug) Ghreyfain! Great dude, you are! An encouraging pat on Andyr's shoulder too! (and a whisper...Dudley's fixes are really gooooooood... :) )! I might say this: those fixes that don't really fix a bug but just aim to give a newer (and different...for me even more consistent but it's just me) interpretation of the game might be included in a different pack called "Tweaks". Dudley himself is developing Tweaks and Fixpacks parallelly and perhaps can be prompted about moving such pseudo-fixes into Tweaks instead.  :pirate

Offline Andyr

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2005, 12:24:31 PM »
I don't not just want all the fixes due to recoding; I think some of them (e.g. Tazok) are not fixes.

Moving some stuff to an optional Tweaks component would alleviate the problem.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2005, 12:26:38 PM »
...and perhaps can be prompted about moving such pseudo-fixes into Tweaks instead. :pirate

Better him than me.

And yes, I think pretty much everyone can agree that a lot of the fixes are "pseudo-fixes", as Salk says.  Those should be optional.

The real question is, who gets to decide which fixes are fixes, and which should be optional?  My vote is for me. ;)
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Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2005, 12:29:08 PM »
Because having tonnes of different variants of a "base" install is going to make troubleshooting people's problems insanely difficult.

But you are contradicting yourself. Base, in my understanding is as Jester put it, the single common denominator. In our case BG1 is that. TUTU is something that gives you BG1+ BG2 rules.

Anythjing that changes story or character stats or dialogues should be in add-ons. In other words, Dudley-Tweak installable after TUTU and TUTU -compatible is a great idea. Dumping all Dudley's fixes into TUTU install itself is... well, not that flexible, you know. It's turning BG1 into BG1 the way Dudley plays it.

I understand that you would not want to argue about every single one of Dudley's descisions to fix. That is why it would be better if those fixes that alter content were installed AFTER TUTU had converted content. I understand that it's more work, but Dduley has great logs of his changes so...
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2005, 12:32:57 PM »
But you are contradicting yourself.
No.

Quote
Base, in my understanding is as Jester put it, the single common denominator. In our case BG1 is that. TUTU is something that gives you BG1+ BG2 rules.
BG1 is your common denominator? Which BG1 would that be? The one with TotSC, or with Baldurdash, or with Dudleyfix? Exactly. I'm proposing ONE common denominator on which Tutu is based, which will be BG1 (with or without TotSC) with bugfixes.

Offline Andyr

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2005, 12:38:22 PM »
The real question is, who gets to decide which fixes are fixes, and which should be optional?  My vote is for me. ;)

I will stick my oar in, too. :)
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Offline CamDawg

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2005, 12:38:42 PM »
We need Idobek back. :(
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2005, 12:39:58 PM »
Yeah.
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Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2005, 12:41:59 PM »
I think that BG1 + ToSC is the better denominator than BG1 + a multitude of assorted fixes (Baldurdash or Dudley) which do who knows what to the game and NPCs.  

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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2005, 12:48:44 PM »
So we should require that Tutu be installed over BG1... without bugfixes? Uh.

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2005, 12:51:59 PM »
Fix things like misspelled death variables, and apply the desired tweaks (like changing dialogues and stats and items and quest rewards) over it. What's wrong with that? Previous TUTU installed over Baldurash or without Baldurash and nobody got hurt...
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2005, 12:52:43 PM »
assorted fixes (Baldurdash or Dudley) which do who knows what

Yeah, that's why we'll have to go through them and decide what's a fix, what's a fix that needs re-implementation due to introducing incompatibilities, and what's an outright tweak.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2005, 12:53:29 PM »
Okay, yes, the script name thing is an oddity Sim and I noticed as we went over the list.  Better to change dialogues or scripts that refer to them improperly, than to edit the .cre, I think.
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Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2005, 12:54:54 PM »
Goody. Can I take you out for dinner to discuss that Tazok tweak and dialogue strings additions?  :pirate Obviously, at Kelsey's :)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 12:57:10 PM by Ashara »
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2005, 12:55:40 PM »
Previous TUTU installed over Baldurash or without Baldurash and nobody got hurt...
I'm not gonna repeat the argument constantly, but making Tutufix cater for different installations was starting to prove ridiculous.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2005, 01:01:17 PM »
Goody. Can I take you out for dinner to discuss that Tazok tweak and dialogue strings additions?  :pirate Obviously, at Kelsey's :)

Hehehe!  I'd be up for it, just as long as "take me out for dinner" isn't the same as "TAKE ME OUT TO LUNCH". ;)
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Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2005, 01:03:03 PM »
Nope, no strings attached. :) How about Mondyish and Dalhousiesh?
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2005, 01:04:50 PM »
Monday's no good, but tuesday through friday would be.

Or, hey, saturday, as I celebrate my upcoming victory in the Tutu Iron Modder competition!  Heheh.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2005, 01:06:18 PM »
If the Dudleyville fixes are that bad and ensuring compatability is such an issue, how about making Tutu check for Dudley, and if found display the message "WARNING: OMG LOL YUO HAV TEH DUDLEYVILLE FIXES INSTALLED!!!111 REEMOV IT 1ST, MORON!!!!1111" ?

Hmmm... no evil smilie on these forums :P.
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Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2005, 01:14:44 PM »
Monday's no good, but tuesday through friday would be.

Or, hey, saturday, as I celebrate my upcoming victory in the Tutu Iron Modder competition!  Heheh.

IM Saturday sounds CEWL. Some call me TUTU Queen, Sir, and I beat a :pirate once already with a mighty Noober joke... :) Anyway, sounds good.

If the Dudleyville fixes are that bad and ensuring compatability is such an issue, how about making Tutu check for Dudley, and if found display the message "WARNING: OMG LOL YUO HAV TEH DUDLEYVILLE FIXES INSTALLED!!!111 REEMOV IT 1ST, MORON!!!!1111" ?

or

WARNING: OMG LOL YUO HAV TEH DUDLEYVILLE FIXES INSTALLED!!!111  LET DUDLEY TROBELESHOUTERZZZ YUOR BUGZ.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

 

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