TUTU Credo and additions

[NiGHTMARE]

From what I remember, Bio decided to change the name for BG2 because Icarus is a figure in Greek mythology.

[Necaradan]

Personally I have never seen Tazok fall but I haven't played BG1 in a long time so I can't remember the circumstances of meeting him. Can someone enlighten me?

You can get the location of the bandit camp off Tranzig, (and Elminster??) and that bandit guy who you ask to join up with. If you choose it infiltrate the camp you meet Tazok and he tests you to see if your good enough but you have to pick the right dialog choice so you don't provoke him right?

In that instance he should not be killable because he is the one who ends the fight and lets you join the bandits. Your not trying to kill him just get on his good side.

If you choose the dialog option to provoke him does the whole camp go hostile?

If you just enter the camp from the south or something can you just start killing everyone and Tazok doesn't even show up? Or are all the bandits neutral until you find Tazok over in the west of the map?

What actually happens in the original game when Kivan meets Tazok? cause I've never used him that far along in the game.

[Andyr]

When you fight Tazok in the Bandit Camp, he is scripted to stop fighting and talk if he is too badly wounded.

However, such scripts are known to not always trigger properly, and can be circumvented (e.g. with Hold to stop it triggering).

In the original game, Kivan does not say anything when confronting Tazok.

[Ashara]

If you just enter the camp from the south or something can you just start killing everyone and Tazok doesn't even show up?

Yes.

Loriel, I did manage to piss you off too.

Your posts come through as disparging because you question not other's people work's quality, but what people chose to do (ie play the game with or without a specific mod) and imply that it is inferrior to your way of doing the same thing. It comes across then as a personal rather than 'job-related' critique.

[Salk]

If you just enter the camp from the south or something can you just start killing everyone and Tazok doesn't even show up?

Yes.

Loriel, I did manage to piss you off too.

Your posts come through as disparging because you question not other's people work's quality, but what people chose to do (ie play the game with or without a specific mod) and imply that it is inferrior to your way of doing the same thing. It comes across then as a personal rather than 'job-related' critique.

I reply to this for the last time hoping to make things clear once for all. I didn't intend to insult anybody in this forum. I apologized in another post to anybody who had taken offense for what I wrote, although I never considered myself rude in any of my posts. I did not - it seems I need to repeat this - question anybody's sanity of mind or intelligence; not esplicitly nor implicitly. If you want to see what you like in my words, you are welcome but please do not try and convince me that my mind and fingers don't work in coordination. I and you have opposite ideas of how the gaming experience needs to *first and foremost* be enhanced. I want a bug-free, spell-checked, consistent game to play, possibly - since inspired to the AD&D rules - as respectful as possible of the P&P counterpart. I consider a game with bugs an unfinished product that needs to be patched. Luckily for me, the TuTu group thinks the same: a bug needs correction. Let me feel free to say again that I do not understand why people would want to play a game that might crash at some specific points when it's possible to eliminate the problem without compromising it (if a Mod needs to adapt to this, then corrections will be made). In short: I believe it's not the game that should keep its bugs to suit a Mod but the Mod that should adapt itself to the bug-free game. I can't apologize for expressing this. I apologized to whom felt offended by this statement. I wouldn't feel offended if you asked me how I could play Baldur's Gate TuTu without BG1 NPC. I would rather answer your question (kindly even) without thinking that you consider me inferior just because I don't do what you think is best. I end by saying I am fighting no personal battle at all with anyone. Cheers! 

[Ashara]

And now you are saying that you were not given any argumentaion by people who do not use Baldurdash. Well, they wer in the posts, but I will repeat it:

1) BG1 never crashed on me, in its original or TUTU'd version (appatrt from Kagain, that is not fixed by Baldurdash, btw). So from my point of view BG1 does not have game-breakers

2) I never compare description of an item with an item's performance, so it leaves me cold that it does not give the pluses it supposed to. As far as I am concerned they are just armor and arms, not precise something... I dunno, it just never worry about it.

3) I pretty much never notice typos, I guess because I read it quickly, or my eyes do not trip over them in the game format, maybe because I am an ESL and never participated in spelling bees - who knows. I only notice them when I paste the texts in word and see them underlined in red.

4) I have never encountered quests in BG1 that I could not complete (I usually do most of sidequests, but not each and every-one of them). For example I always kill Aldeth for the druids... hence I would not have encountered whatever problem is there with merchant ligue that Baldurdash reported.

5) I never compare an NPC to its 'ideal' or pen-and-paper D&D 'what it should be like'. It honestly does not bother me if an NPC is 'underpowred' or have too many hp, too little spells and things like that. I am into how s/he fits in the party and if I like the guy or the gal.

6) I played TUTU'd BG1 from the moment of V4 release without having any troubles and without either Baldurdash or Dudley. Every mod I wanted installed correctly over it as well.

7) I am an install minimalist (appart from my hubby growing increasingly concerned with 'hackers software, ie mods on our precious systems) - I do not like to dwell on incompatibility issues, so I only install mods that I either am working on or really really really want to play. Up to date, among the multitude of avaliable mods I only had installed and played: Kelsey for SoA, Solaufein for SoA, 1 Baldurdash fix for Druid's Stronghold (availability for DC'd druid), some portraits and Kivan. On BG1 I installed BG1NPC, TUTU fixes, portraits and music pack. That's it. I for a while wanted to install a Tweak that allows multiclassed figters to have grand mastery and increases the xp limit, but since it was not critical for my game to proceed, I did not.

In summary, my gaming experience up to the point of discovering via this thread that BG1 is apparently buggy(?), was very happy, uneventful and peaceful. I am simply not the critically-minded audience Baldurdash or Dudley is cartering to.

However I am a very very very interested (and invested) consumer of BG1TUTU, so of course I am hotily lobbying for what matters to me.

I am also an entusiastic (amybe even over-enthusiastic) project manager of BG1NPC and love this mod more than I loved anything in the past few years. As ridiculous as it may sound coming from a 30 yo woman, it became a center point of my wellbeing knowing that it proceeds smoothly to its final release in May. This upset not only cost me a few valuable coding days, but potentially sets me back... so you bet I experience negative emotions toward anyone who lobbies pro changes that I see as obstacles.

Which is the simplest and cleanest possible install, that does not requre multiple downloads of various mods PRIOR to conversion (one of the reasons I do not like the idea of ever attempting BP-BGT). I had no problems with fixes applied AFTER the conversion. Conversion is a finicky process, so if the team will adapt the practice of OBLIGATORY adding more and more mods UNDER the conversion with every new edition of TUTU, it will be quite an annoyance to me.

I would like to hope that this 'you must have Baldurdash and Dudley' installed in order to run a converdsion properly is a unique situation that will not repeat in the future and all further fixes will be aplied OVER the conversion and will be elective.

[SimDing0™]

Just because you don't notice bugs doesn't mean they're not there. When I first got BG2, I played through without the official patch or anything. Yet I still elect to install the official patch now (so similarly, all my mods are based on it), and I wouldn't dream of complaining about a mod that didn't support unpatched BG2. Why? Because even if they don't bother me, I didn't notice them, or whatever, the bugs are there, and for some people, they need fixing (and I might even encounter them myself one day). So far as modding goes, if I make my mod incompatible with bug fixes, I screw people who DO suffer from the bugs, even if I don't care myself.

[Ashara]

I was asked to explain my position and I explained it. I have nothing against other people applying bugfixes, tweaks, BP-BGT or sewage golem mod. What I do not like is being told what to install, especially if I do not see a need for it.

And the whole problem imo stems from nobody willing to do a TUTU compatible version of the fixes that can be safely applied AFTER the conversion.

[SimDing0™]

Okay. Well... we do see a need, and I've explained that too. I suggest everyone waits until we post the list of what fixes get included/excluded.

Or carry on with semantic arguments here. Either's good.

[EDIT] Doing bugfixes for vanilla BG1 AFTER the conversion is hugely, hugely awkward and inefficient. The odd one is okay, but when you're doing hundreds of fixes on non-static strrefs, it rapidly becomes irritating. By all means, somebody else convert it, but I'm gonna do the fixes in the most efficient way.

[NiGHTMARE]

- The number of people who don't want bug fixes seems to be considerably smaller than those who do.

- Just because your game is flawless, doesn't mean everyone else's is.  Ashara is obviously very lucky to have a PC system which apparently runs Tutu absolutely flawlessly, but I somewhat doubt any two BG players have completely identical system specs.

- The vast majority of bug fixes won't interfere with mods, and most of those which do will be left out by the Tutu team.

- If you've never noticed any problems with BG, the bug fixes will be completely invisible to you, and not hinder you or your game in any way whatsoever. 

- Including the bug fixes in Tutu will make life considerably easier for the Tutu developers.


I would say the creators of Tutu should not cater for the minority of players, especially not when it would make their jobs considerably more dfficult... and definitely not when that minority of players apparently won't even notice any difference with or without the bug fixes installed, but a great many other people most certainly WILL notice the removal of game crashes, lock-ups and other problems.

[Ashara]

Or, I can stick with TUTU4+fix 7. That's what I would have done if I did not have to maintain BG1NPC.

Can all the fixes at least be *included* into conversion, not uploaded separetly?

[japheth]

Okay, I read a few posts but this thread is way too long to read the whole thing.  From what I'm understanding, people are worried that bundled Dudleyville fixes will somehow "compromise" the install.

The way it's coded makes both bugfix installing and non-bugfix installing users happy.  I've "WeiDUized" the Dudleyville install and you are presented with the standard [Y]es, [N]o, [Q]uit options right at the start of the BG1Tutu install.  So if you really don't want to install Dudleyville's bugfixes, simply hit N.

Easy enough no?  (I should note that I had already coded it this way before this huge thread broke out. )

[Andyr]

Have you done the whole package as one component, or split them in any way?

[japheth]

Everything is all included in one archive (bg1tutuv5.exe) which is about 3MB now.

As for the actual Dudleyville fixes, they're split up into core bugfixes, music fixes and the english language game text update.

[Salk]

I thought we were to expect a selection of Dudley's fixes as part of TuTu's core instead of being given an option about having them or not during installation...What's then the difference between installing first Dudleyville's fixes then installing TuTu and installing Dudleyville's as part of the TuTu installation, except that they have been WeiDuized ? And one more question: being Dudleyville still working on the bugfixes, can we expect TuTu follow his work through updates ? (-Salk dreams of TuTu version being released every week!  -) Thanks, japheth! 

[japheth]

I thought we were to expect a selection of Dudley's fixes as part of TuTu's core instead of being given an option about having them or not during installation...

Well, no I never wanted it as part of the BG1Tutu core.  If people really don't want to install the bugfixes (or whatever else), then they don't have to.

What's then the difference between installing first Dudleyville's fixes then installing TuTu and installing Dudleyville's as part of the TuTu installation, except that they have been WeiDuized ?

It gives us control to change certain things so that the Dudleyville fixes are compatible with BG1Tutu.  (i.e. AR1800.BCS... Dudley simply removed the reference to NARRAT.CRE in that script file, which in turn caused the Tutufix to crap out when it couldn't find _NARRAT.CRE since it wasn't converted due to BG1Tutu no longer seeing the CreateCreature("NARRAT",x,y) in that script file.)

And one more question: being Dudleyville still working on the bugfixes, can we expect TuTu follow his work through updates ? (-Salk dreams of TuTu version being released every week!   -)

Yeah, I (or somebody else) will surely keep things up to date.  I'm not sure about weekly, but hopefully I'll be a bit better about updating things than before.

[SimDing0™]

Well, no I never wanted it as part of the BG1Tutu core.  If people really don't want to install the bugfixes (or whatever else), then they don't have to.

Well. If you're gonna be sticking around, then cool. But if I end up doing Tutufix again, I'm sure as hell not wasting time making sure it works for people who want to play with the bugs left in. Past experience tells me that more options = bad, in this case.
And yeh. Easier support was the whole reason for including them in Tutu in the first place. As it is, we might still need two versions of some stuff (the journals component?), which really sucks.

[Necaradan]

So do I still install Baldurdash or is that included now (it doesn't mention in the v5 readme)

[Ashara]

No, Baldurdash is not a part of the install as far as I have seen. Tutleyfix is an option on install prior to the program's converting. Most of TUTUfix is an option after conversion.

[Andyr]

Well, no I never wanted it as part of the BG1Tutu core.  If people really don't want to install the bugfixes (or whatever else), then they don't have to.

Well. If you're gonna be sticking around, then cool. But if I end up doing Tutufix again, I'm sure as hell not wasting time making sure it works for people who want to play with the bugs left in. Past experience tells me that more options = bad, in this case.
And yeh. Easier support was the whole reason for including them in Tutu in the first place. As it is, we might still need two versions of some stuff (the journals component?), which really sucks.

I will probably recode the Journal component soon so it should work either way. After finishing stuff for Domi.

[Ashara]

That Domi sounds like a horrible slave driver, Andyr...

[Andyr]

Yeh. But I'd better not say too much, I hear she posts here under a different name.