Author Topic: TUTU Credo and additions  (Read 24279 times)

Offline Ashara

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TUTU Credo and additions
« on: January 28, 2005, 10:21:08 AM »
In light of adding Dudley's package to TUTU, I would like to voice my concerns regarding any future additions to TUTU. It is my understanding that TUTU's credo was always to deliver *unchanged* game to the end user. In fact it was one of the selling points of TUTU over BGT.

While I understand the value of debugging the initial scripts, I would like to ask that no changes to game texsts and actors were introduced in the core TUTU install. TUTU works great as a base for further modding, and making it different from the core BG1, moreover different with every new version will damage its status of the 'BG1 with BG2 gameplay'.

All the dialogue alterations, creature deletions etc, imo should belong in separate addons.

Thank you for your attention.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2005, 10:30:38 AM »
Yes.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2005, 10:40:15 AM »
Well, wait. If you're saying "don't make any DLG changes at all", then no. We're not going to leave Kagain's dialogue crashing, for example. The changes Tutu makes will be limited to bugfixes, but we're not gonna limit the scope of the fixes we make. On the other hand, adding dialogue which renames Sarevok to BLADE and makes him Gorion's flatmate is not within the mandate of the conversion.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2005, 10:43:06 AM »
Agreed, and I understand the concern about Dudleyfix.  So far we've only discovered one instance where a .cre is removed entirely, when a better fix could've been done.  If we find more, we'll change those.  Does he have a comprehensive list of the fixes he's made and how he does them?
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2005, 10:45:16 AM »
When we've removed the questionable stuff from Dudleyfix and WeiDUed it, I'd move for making it a mandatory part of the installation, rather than optional. It's sucky enough having to make sure everything works with/without TotSC without having to bother about double the number of combinations, which is what'd happen if we had to account for installs with/without Dudleyfix too.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2005, 10:47:04 AM »
That sounds logical.  I still can't find the link to Dudley's site.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2005, 10:48:42 AM »

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2005, 10:49:12 AM »
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Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2005, 10:54:52 AM »
I mean alterations to dialogue texsts, changing rewards for the quests, deleting actors or moving them to a different locations, etc
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2005, 11:00:26 AM »
Also, those changes he makes to joinable NPC, I assume that they will not affcet TUTU, since you guys substitute CRE's anyway? Or will they? He had done stuff like raised Jaheira's dexterity and Viconia's wisdom, changed prophiciencies around and changed spells selections!!!
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2005, 11:05:04 AM »
OR things like that:

Tazok, AR1900 - can be killed in the challenge battle before he gives you the run of the camp. He then appears in the Undercity as part of the plot which would make no sense. Strictly speaking he should not be killable which could be resolved by scripting a cut scene once he has reached 50% HPs forcing dialogue with the PC before he leaves with his henchmen. Thanks to Frank Horrigan for spotting this one! Big thanks to Smoketest for coming up with a solution! Because many people kill Tazok for his gauntlets I have added these items instead to the trapped chest in the main tent of the bandit camp. Also Teven and Raiken "vanish" during the cutscene with Tazok. It would be better if they walked away.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2005, 11:06:56 AM »
Or like this:

Bellamy, AR0119 - approaches the group to say "Good day to ya" and then does nothing, which kind of seems a pointless action for a conscientious NPC. It would be better if he does not approach the group unless they fail his reputation test.
Create a file called BELLAM.BCS from INITDLG.BCS and add trigger ReputationLT([PC],15).
Change Class script in CRE from INITDLG.BCS to BELLAM.BCS.
Change alignment to Neutral Good.
Edit string 15255 to add "Well hello there travelers! It's a pleasure to see such upstanding folk in these difficult times. I'm afraid I can't dally about, business awaits!" before the exisitng sentence.
Add action in [State trigger 1] EscapeArea().
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2005, 11:17:40 AM »
And, in some cases he ADDED strings to DLGs!
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Salk

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2005, 11:20:04 AM »
I do believe that most of the modifications to NPCs abilities and behaviour are in the spirit of keeping the game logical and realistic. What he corrects about Bellamy is perfectly coherent. Same thing for the second example your brought up. I don't understand why changing the behaviour or characteristics of an NPC in the game can't be seen as an improvement over the final gaming experience. SimDing0 is perfectly right saying that Dudleyville's *unquestionable* fixes will have to become a mandatory part of the TuTu installation as most of Dudley's job won't cause any problems to other Mods and I personally can't see a reason why TuTu shouldn't take full advantage of them. I am actually now wondering if Andyr found out something about the incompatibility with the "Organized Journal Entries"... :pirate
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 11:24:46 AM by Salk »

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2005, 11:24:43 AM »
No, they are not. It is munchkinism to raise Jaheira's dexterity or Viconia's Wisdom. It makes them into 'preferable' NPCs which is unfair for the rest of the cast, which is unforgivable.

Screwing dialogues and majour key elements like not being able to kill Tazok is also unforgivable.

Please, try to see it from my POV: I have texsts for Kivan that reflect *killing* Tazok in the bandit camp!

I have interjections after specific states in dialogues throughout the game which reflect the content of those strings. EXACT content of those strings. Alora for example interjects after quoted Bellamy greeting.

So anything that alters the events, NPCs stats, dialogue strings ARE very questionable for me. VERY, VERY QUESTIONABLE.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 11:27:37 AM by Ashara »
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2005, 11:29:01 AM »
So it's fine for Tazok to come back to life?

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2005, 11:31:13 AM »
Ressurection is not unheard of and makes the story all more poignant. After all he comes back to life in BG2 as well. So perhaps designers wanted him to be unkillable.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2005, 11:33:19 AM »
Ah, yes, it was obviously a design decision for Tazok to have god mode throughout the series.

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2005, 11:34:37 AM »
Shit, people, all I am asking is not to change Dialogues, NPCs stats and Story when running TUTU. If you want a WeiDU'd Dudley DLG-and-I-think-it-improves-the-game fix, that's great. But make it a separate install, and I will happily call it 'logically incompatible' with BG1NPC.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Salk

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2005, 11:36:04 AM »
I try and understand your point, Ashara.

About Viconia and Jaherira, I don't think that most players choose to stick with them just because of their stats. Now that would be lame,wouldn't it ?  :) Shouldn't the reasons at the base of an NPC choice be a little "deeper" than their Wisdom score ? The modifications to the stats of Viconia and Jaheira shouldn't prejudice other joinable NPCs' situation at all. They won't become less attractive to the eyes of whom chooses them because of their past, character, look or interaction with other party members,don't you think ? Dudlyville has limited his changes to the Abilities in order to keep the game consistent. It's no revolution.

The dialogue modifications instead, you are right, could be a big problem and here I don't know what to say about it. Actually those modifications help making the game fluent and consistent but of course couldn't take in considerations possible interjections added by other Mods. When the dialogue modifications are applied to TotSC no harm is done. Of course things change when we have BG1NPC Mod on. A solution might be to make *some* fixes optional while other corefixes. But this is just my two cents... :pirate


Offline SimDing0™

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2005, 11:38:37 AM »
And all I'm saying is that it's damn hard for us to make a million allowances for every random mod that people might decide they want before Tutu. If we just WeiDU Dudleyfix and make done with it, Tutu has to allow for:

BG1
BG1 + Baldurdash
BG1 + TotSC
BG1 + TotSC + Baldurdash
BG1 + TotSC + Dudleyfix
BG1 + TotSC + Baldurdash + Dudleyfix

And we know how many people get install errors when they try to run Tutufix, simple because there are so many combinations of stuff to allow for.

If fixes are integrated into the installer, we have to cope with:

BG1
BG1 + TotSC

Again, I'm not advocating all the arbitrary fixes like changing Jaheira's stats, but a bug's a bug, and if it takes a dialogue change to fix it, then I say so be it.

My views do not necessarily represent those of Japh.

Salk

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2005, 11:41:20 AM »
Please, try to see it from my POV: I have texsts for Kivan that reflect *killing* Tazok in the bandit camp!

Er...I suppose you can't adapt again the Kivan dialogue to this new situation ?  :-X

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2005, 11:41:29 AM »
About Viconia and Jaherira, I don't think that most players choose to stick with them just because of their stats. Now that would be lame,wouldn't it ?

They are already heavily favored NPCs and putting more icing on them will preclude people from even *concidering* alternatives. Every NPC have to have some disadvantages, and 'correcting' them arbitrarily is horrible. What's next? Dual-classing Imoen forcefully? Changing Minsc's Racial enemy to Vampire in BG1? Plus, in BG1 you can find 3! Tomes of Wisdom, so with that 'wonderful' fix you can get Viconia's wisdom to 21...
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Salk

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2005, 11:46:39 AM »
SimDing0, I do understand that allowances bring hard job and problems to you coders. Best is try and walk a patch that takes into fair considaration and respect the work of the creators of beautiful Mods which have always been TuTu compatible. Of course, sometimes, you will have to sacrifice something to a more prevalent interest. Myself, I do agree with you when you say that a bug is to be eliminated...and if this means to change slightly the dialogue then the Mods will have to adapt to this (which is not so awful).  :pirate

Offline Ashara

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Re: TUTU Credo and additions
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2005, 11:47:20 AM »
Please, try to see it from my POV: I have texsts for Kivan that reflect *killing* Tazok in the bandit camp!

Er...I suppose you can't adapt again the Kivan dialogue to this new situation ?  :-X

Oh, I have a dialogue for Tazok excaping also... I am just going to lose this one if the fix is implemented. I am also up to poetntially recoding it along with reviewing  dialogues for 25 NPCs and a tide of bug reports. No big deal, I see. It only took us two and half years to put it all together thinking erroneously that we mod BG1TUTU, not Dudley's Gate...

And Sim, I am not saying - do not fix the bugs - I am saying fix them in such a manner that strings are not mixed up, NPCs do not suddenly aquire new sky-high stats and game events all change on us.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 11:49:10 AM by Ashara »
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

 

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