Author Topic: Evolving Virtue-affector list  (Read 12309 times)

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2005, 10:23:16 PM »
I'd vote for no penalty for cooperating with Simyaz (Sesame Street taught me that that was virtuous.  "Co-op-er-a-shun!  Makes it hap-pen!")

As for holding on to their relic, I'd say no virtue hit, because you might be holding on to it to teach them humility, because you know they're a bunch of evil dudes who're going to use it slay small kittens and steal candy from pixies, or because you're greedy and want to sell it to the highest bidder... or possibly slay kittens and pixies with it.
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2005, 10:25:49 PM »

Half your ideas are already there the other half make it impossible to finish the game with out losing virtue
Working for Teos; YOU HAVE to for the mage stronghold. Also he never tells you to do anything evil. The worst thing your told to do is get rid of a man who wants to kill all wizards. If your on that quest then your a wizard.

Imprisoning the guy is as far as I recall about the only dodgy thing you have to do to keep the mage stronghold (and yes, you have to do that to keep the stronghold, whether or not you should lose virtue for commiting the act is a good question).  Nothing else about Teos exactly reeks of evil, though--he is an insensitive jerk, but that doesn't mean you should get a penalty simply because you are agreeing to work for the Cowled Wizards a bit in exchange for the Sphere.  Most of your time is spent instructing apprentices, and you are just teaching them about magic and the creation of items, not how to bend the law to their advantage and/or how to run a slaver ring...

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2005, 10:28:20 PM »
I'd vote for no penalty for cooperating with Simyaz (Sesame Street taught me that that was virtuous.  "Co-op-er-a-shun!  Makes it hap-pen!")

As for holding on to their relic, I'd say no virtue hit, because you might be holding on to it to teach them humility, because you know they're a bunch of evil dudes who're going to use it slay small kittens and steal candy from pixies, or because you're greedy and want to sell it to the highest bidder... or possibly slay kittens and pixies with it.

*nods*  If the mod doesn't consider stealing to be evil, then you probably shouldn't get a virtue hit for keeping the sword.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2005, 10:33:04 PM »
Heh, the pick-pocketing from stores not being a virtue hit is both an engine limitation, as well as conscious decision, I'm pretty sure.  But now that I think about it, the motives behind the theft might be so the PC can donate the proceeds to a temple, or yeah, something along those lines.
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2005, 01:15:47 AM »
Quote
Working for Jarlaxle: -1
Jarlaxle didn't strike me as particularly evil. He was quite a nice guy, I thought. Anyway, helping him achieves two things:

- saving the souls of loyal men (albeit Drow) from eternal imprisonment (as far as you know)
- retaining your secrecy, thus allowing you to save the Silver Dragon eggs.

Jarlaxle, according to official sources, is indeed Neutral Evil (and remember, he *does* trick you into doing what he wants).  However, if you've gotten the rope and entered the tower, all Jarlaxle will make you do is kill the lich and take the gems.  IIRC, you have to do this or he threatens to expose you.  It's arguable that you have no right to go into the tower in the first place, but the argument here is that there shouldn't be a hit for working for Jarlaxle. 

He suggests that you take advantage of the situation and raid House Jal'let (sp??), but you don't have to do this.  Jarlaxle's evil (and he really isn't *that* evil) comes from his opportunism more than anything else, and he naturally assumes other adventurers are going to be just as greedy and opportunistic. 

PS: He leads you to *believe* you are saving the souls of his men, but that's not the case; he later says he would never send his men to do what he sent you to do.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 04:54:03 PM by Murdane »

Offline SimDing0™

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2005, 05:31:54 AM »
Heh, the pick-pocketing from stores not being a virtue hit is both an engine limitation, as well as conscious decision, I'm pretty sure. But now that I think about it, the motives behind the theft might be so the PC can donate the proceeds to a temple, or yeah, something along those lines.
While we're at it, you may notice from my current Virtue modifier listing that you're currently getting Virtue penalties for being caught stealing at shops. I didn't even realise this. But, if I can't implement them for when you don't get caught, maybe they should just go completely.

Offline NiGHTMARE

  • Idiot
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2005, 06:08:52 AM »
I'd have thought getting caught stealing should cause a hit to reputation, rather than virtue.
The Gibberlings Three - home to the BG1 NPC Project, BG2 Tweak Pack, Divine Remix, GemRB, Lands of Intrigue, Song & Silence, and many more!

Offline SimDing0™

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2005, 06:27:54 AM »
Yeh, it does as well.

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2005, 07:25:59 AM »
I do not think there should be a penalty for cooperating with Simyaz.

Or, for keeping the Silver Sword. Though they claim it's an important artefact, they can't prove it, and they can't prove to you that Saemon did steal it from them.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2005, 08:31:27 PM »
also why return a sacred item to the evil Githyanki?
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2005, 08:53:54 PM »
also why return a sacred item to the evil Githyanki?

The PC may not know they're evil.  Besides, just because they're evil doesn't mean they don't deserve justice. :)
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2005, 08:55:15 PM »
I asked the question because the game leaves one with the impression that the sword is somehow important to them, and with that in mind, is it right to keep the sword when you know (or at least, have the feeling) that it belongs to them?

It is true that there is no proof of that, and don't get me wrong--I can't stand the Githyanki, I never give them the sword and have no qualms about killing them.  But this is, after all, the Virtue mod, so I wondered if such actions deserve a virtue hit.  On the other hand, if stealing isn't considered to be wrong, than there is no reason why refusing to give back the sword should be wrong, and like many people said the PC may have intentions that aren't entirely selfish.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2005, 09:36:17 PM »
On the other hand, if stealing isn't considered to be wrong, than there is no reason why refusing to give back the sword should be wrong, and like many people said the PC may have intentions that aren't entirely selfish.

Heh, now you've gone and made me change my mind.  I suppose stealing is wrong.  It's either in the "the ends don't justify the means" category, or the "it's just plain wrong" category, depending on motives of the PC.  But IS it really evil to hold on to something that wasn't stolen by you (but was stolen)?  What if it was known that the person you're returning the item to would use it for evil?  Huh.  Damn morality.  So confusing.
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2005, 10:02:37 PM »
Obviously the PC wasn't the one who stole the sword, and he/she didn't even ask for it.  However, if you found out the sword rightfully belongs to someone else--and they ask you for it back--then is it right to out-and-out refuse to give it back? 

I mentioned "stealing" because this case involves keeping something that isn't yours by right when the rightful owners (there is no proof, yes, but the game strongly suggests that they are indeed the rightful owners) come to you in the flesh and ask for it back.  Again, I hate the githyanki, will keep the sword out of sheer spite and don't mind killing them at all.  However, since this is the Virtue mod, I am trying to consider what the truly "virtuous" thing to do is, not the way my PCs usually act when I play the game.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2005, 10:15:12 PM »
Virtue has a lot to do with intent and knowledge though.  The PC's evidence that the Githyanki are evil is based pretty much off of... them sinking his ship, being enslaved by the illithid and helping him get out, and anything else?  Seems kind of balanced to me.  If the PC knew they were evil, it might be a virtue gain for withholding the sword.  But I figure the PC might also be thinking about himself foremost, and keeping it for his own gain.  That's a virtue hit.  Since you can't really tell what the player's thinking, in this case I'm going to go with no virtue gain or loss at all.  Er... right?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2005, 11:45:17 PM »
I would agree with you on that. :)

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2005, 12:38:10 AM »
I think the fact of the matter is made pretty clear when the Githyanki Captain announces that *everyone* on Saemon's ship will be killed to avenge the insult of the Blade being stolen.

Then again, we can't assume that the PC takes the ship at all....if that's the case, either he knows the Githyanki are classically Evil or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he should hand over the Blade and get a Virtue bonus for it, since they're more forthright and upstanding than Saemon and Bohdi, and the Gith speak of the Blade as a 'sacred relic.' If he does, he should keep the Blade--either because he wants to keep it away from Evil creatures, or because he knows he's capable of doing greater Evils with it himself. Perhaps, if he keeps the Blade, his Virtue might be adjusted according to his current Alignment.

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2005, 10:20:27 AM »
They can't prove it is stolen. Perhaps they are lying in an attempt to make you give it to them.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2005, 10:56:38 AM »
Is it virtuous to imagine the worst in everyone, though?  Especially when it so conveniently nets you a handy +3 vorpal sword?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2005, 10:59:12 AM »
At that point in the game you might just have a blade. You might not know it is the blade for a +3 vorpal sword.

You've got nothing but their word that Saemon stole it from them. For all you know, he could've got it from its rightful owner and the Githyanki could just be thieves.
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2005, 11:06:50 AM »
Then I guess you have to take them on their word.  Sucks being good, doesn't it?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2005, 12:43:21 PM »
You've got nothing but their word that Saemon stole it from them. For all you know, he could've got it from its rightful owner and the Githyanki could just be thieves.
Considering what you know of Saemon and the person whom he says gave it to him (Bodhi), a party of nobodies would be paragons of truth in comparison. Unless, of course, you've taken the ship from Spellhold and you know what Githyanki do.

Question: Do you even get the Blade at all if you take the portal? It's been so long since I've gone that route that I forget.

Offline belboz

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 78
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2005, 04:08:16 PM »
It's been a long, long time since I looked at the Player's Handbook, but wasn't a Robin-Hood-type "steals from corrupt nobles and gives the proceeds to the poor" character the actual example they used of CG alignment? I definitely don't think you can class all stealing as evil in the game. For all the game knows, you cast Know Alignment on the Githyanki and plan to sell the sword and donate the proceeds to Lathander (I assume it's not possible to track that sort of thing), or give them all to Athkatlan beggars, which strikes me as a deeply chaotic action, but not en evil one.

Offline Murdane

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2005, 06:13:18 PM »
That wasn't what I was trying to say...

I used stealing as an example because the Githyanki situation involves the PC having something (not stolen, but you have it and can give it back), and the beings who are most likely the rightful owners asking for it back. 

The closest other example I can think of it the first quest for the Ranger stronghold.  The ranger PC digs up a small amount of mithral (or adamantine? don't remember which) and you can charge the rightful owner of the cache money for having found it for him.  However, the game seems to suggest subtly that giving it back to that Lord without charge--for the simply reason that it's his--is the right thing to do.  Maybe a greedier ranger just wants to give the money to the poor, but the game certainly doesn't assume that.  It's true that the Githyanki are evil, but what I've mentioned in many of my posts (and what Ghreyfain also mentioned in this very thread) is the idea that a virtuous person will, within reason, treat other creatures as justly as possible even though they are "evil" or "don't deserve it".
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 12:16:53 AM by Murdane »

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2005, 05:11:03 AM »
Looking back at BG2 (and after reading the many pnp books) both the Thieves' Guild and Bodhi don't make sense, unless you side with Bodhi first and then kill her at end.
Afterall, Thieves' Guild are Cyricists, and you're a child of Bhaal.
Of course, there is the little saying "Good doesn't mean stupid", and "Good doesn't mean well-mannered".

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: