Author Topic: Evolving Virtue-affector list  (Read 12717 times)

Offline SixOfSpades

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Evolving Virtue-affector list
« on: January 03, 2005, 09:35:08 PM »
This list starts out as mine, but it shouldn't stay that way. All viewers should feel free to suggest anything that might affect Virtue, and by what amount it should be affected. When submitting an action, try to fit it into a category--or if there's a new category that I haven't thought of, suggest that too.

Try not to debate the details of any of these too much--if you think something should be otherwise than is listed here, just mention it. I'd prefer this thread was devoted to getting everyone's opinions gathered together, not nitpicking details. One person's vote is enough to get an event / deed onto this list.

I'll be continually editing the list as new suggestions come in.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2005, 09:36:24 PM »
I DON'T WANT YOU PLAYING WITH THOSE KIDS
Keeping Keldorn in the party: +1 per week
Keeping Korgan in the party: -1 per week
Keeping Mazzy in the party: +1 per week
Keeping Viconia in the party: -1 per week

GIVING IN TO THE LURE OF EVIL
Wearing the Ring of Gaxx: -1 per week
Wearing the Robe of Vecna: -1 per week
Wearing the Human Flesh armor: -1 per week
Carrying Blackrazor: -1 per week

FRATERNIZING WITH THE ENEMY
Working for Renal Bloodscalp: -1
Working for Edwin: -1
Working for Solaufein / Imrae: -1
Working for Phaere: -1
Working for Matron Mother Ardulace: -1
Working for the Aboleth: -1
Working for Jarlaxle: -1
Working for Simyaz: -1
Working for Lord Khellon Menold: -1
Working for Teos: -1
Working for the Hidden: -1
Working for Aran Linvail: -1
Working for Bodhi: -2
Working for Firkraag (Dragon): -1
Working for Xzar: -1
Working for King Ixilthetocal: -1
Working for Priestess Tlyysixxous / Prince Villynaty: -1
Working for Lady Lurraxol: -1
Working for Lord Alibakkar: -1
Working for Khan Zahraa: -1
Working for Ka'rashur: -1
Working for Tahazzar: -1
Working for Lehtinan: -1

FRATERNIZING WITH DEFINITE INTENT TO KILL
Working for Mae'Var: -1
Working for Gaal: -1

ACTING AS HITMAN FOR EVIL BOSS
Killing Embarl: -1
Killing Garren Windspear: -1
Killing Rayic Gethras: -1
Killing the Svirfneblin Patrol: -2
Obtaining "Blood of a Noble race": -1
Killing Quile: -1
Killing Deirex: -1
Killing Lord Ketlaar Argrim: -1
Killing the Githyanki in the Five Flagons: -1
Killing Jaylos and Caehan: -1
Killing What's-his-name that Bodhi wants dead: -2
Killing the Spectral Harpists: -1
Killing Prince Villynaty: -1
Killing King Ixilthetocal: -1
Killing Ihtafeer: -1
Killing Tahazzar: -1
Killing Ka'rashur: -1
Killing Hendak: -1

NOT DISPLAYING HUMILITY / GOOD MANNERS
Killing Mencar Pebblecrusher: -1
Killing Saladrex: -1
Killing Captain Dennis: -1
Killing Madulf & Company: -1 (might also go under Bloodlust)

IT'S A PUBLIC SERVICE
Entering the Circus Tent: +1
Killing Firkraag: +1
Killing Darsidian Moor: +2
Killing Captain Haegan: +1
Killing Neb: +2
Killing any major Evil Celestial: +1
Killing the Lesser Demon Lord: +3
Killing any Ruffian Captain: +1
Killing Baron Metrich: +1
Killing Lady Galvena: +1
Killing Sion AFTER obtaining Isaea's Slavery Document: +1
Giving Littleman to Wellyn or his parents: +1
Freeing the Slave being taken through the Slums: +1
Freeing Hendak: +1
Freeing the Drow Slaves (equipped): +2
Freeing the Drow Slaves (unequipped): +1
Creating an alliance between Madulf & the village: +1

SHOWING MERCY
Freeing Malaaq: +1
Freeing Dola Fadoon: +1
Freeing the Enslaved Genie: +1
Killing the Enslaved Genie: -1
Taking Yoshimo's heart to a Temple of Ilmater: +1
Freeing Derg the Orc: +1
Freeing Flaylan the Orc: +1
Helping Ginia & Ason: +1
Freeing Glacias: +1
Freeing Conster: +1

NOW THAT'S JUST PLAIN MEAN
Killing Gont of Riatavin: -1
Killing Bedlen Daglefodd: -1
Killing Reyna: -2
Killing Drizzt: -3
Killing Drush after getting the Gong from him: -1
Taking the Imnesvale Three's money and not giving them jack: -1
Killing Glacias after freeing him: -2
Poisoning the Druid Grove: -2
Killing any Good-aligned party member: -2
Encouraging Keldorn to uphold the law against cuckoldry: -1
Threatening Erlin / Enna Hendrick: -1

SUPPORTING THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT
Buying anything from Arledrian: -1
Buying anything from Roger the Fence: -1
Buying anything from Jayes: -1
Buying anything from Cutpurse: -1
Buying anything from Fovem: -1

DISHONESTY / BETRAYAL / UNFAIR PLAY
Entering the 2nd floor of the Galvarey Estate: -1
Giving the illithium alloy to Sir Sarles: -1
Encouraging Keldorn to ignore the law against cuckoldry: -1
Attacking Aesgareth to obtain the Gem: -1
Agreeing to betray Matron Mother Ardulace: -1
Agreeing to betray King Ixilthetocal: -1

BLOODLUST
Helping Anomen raid the Fahrrad Estate: -1
Killing the Elemental Lich: -1
Killing the Shade Lich: -1
Killing Nevazaiah: -1
Killing Sion WITHOUT obtaining Isaea's Slavery Document: -1
Killing Fll'Yissetat: -1
Killing Conster: -1

BLASPHEMY
Stealing the Necklace of Talos: -1
Stealing the Statuette of Lathander: -2
Freeing Kangaxx the Lich: -1

CONDUCT LIABLE TO CAUSE A BREACH OF THE PEACE
Giving ale to the Imnesvale Three: -1
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 09:58:40 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline Murdane

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2005, 10:00:14 PM »
Well, I still don't agree that killing Drizzt is a much more egregious crime than killing Windspear or Reyna, or any other innocent person for that matter.  After all, the big deal about him is that he is a CG rogue drow who does good deeds in the North, is somewhat famous for them, and has some powerful friends.  And has 16 or 17 books written about him.  He has a big fanbase, but being popular, well-known, and loved among players and readers doesn't equal being thought of that way by most Faerunians...

As far as I know, SimDingo said that the Virtue mod applies to evil actions, and to get a Virtue hit there has to be a victim.  This is why simply working for certain people (Teos, Alibakkar, Xzar) shouldn't result in a virtue hit.  Yes I agree that paladins shouldn't be helping some of these people, but by Sim's standards merely agreeing to work for them won't hurt your virtue--it's what you actual do that will hurt your virtue (ie. killing someone unnecessarily).

I don't know if the mod considers stealing or supporting stealers to be evil, Sim will have to answer that. :)

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2005, 10:52:56 PM »
I know you intend for this to be a list, but I thought I'd post my general objection to all things timed in BG2.  How long the game takes to play depends a lot on skill and playing style.  For instance, I suck at playing, and my current party is a tankish cleric, Keldorn, Viconia, Haer'dalis, and Keto.  Definitely not a powerhouse.  I have to rest a lot.  The underdark is going to be tough.  Having a constant Virtue gain just for having Keldorn along with me as I rest for days upon end, replenishing my spells doesn't seem a good idea.  Or rather, not an easily balanceable idea.

* Ghreyfain refrains from commenting on the virtue hit for having Viconia in the party.  Taking in an outcast is an act of mercy, not matter how evil they've been in the past, and-- mmffph!
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2005, 12:26:43 AM »
you wipe out half the game with your list. Having evil characters in your party does not make you evil.
Ok first off you destory the underdark path.

Working for Solaufein / Imrae: -1
Working for Phaere: -1
Working for Matron Mother Ardulace: -1
and betraying Mother Ardulace.

All of these things are needed to get out of the Drow city in secret. DSolaufein whorships a chaotic good deity. Not loith!

You have to work for Aran or Bodhi you can't slap some one with a virtue hit no matter what the pick.
Carrying Blackrazor: (your already evil if you kept this sword so it doesn't matter)
Ring of Gaxx
Ring of Vecna
The items are not evil in themselves. If there were good characters couldn't wear them

Killing Kangaxx the Lich( he already attacks you its self-defense also its an evil lich!)

Obtaining "Blood of a Noble race": -1 also part of the underdark the blood is from an evil creature, Which you might already have from stumbling about.

You can lie but still be good. Its called Chaotic Good

"Killing Ihtafeer: -1" Ithafeer is evil. And it requried to finish trademeet.


Half your ideas are already there the other half make it impossible to finish the game with out losing virtue
Working for Teos; YOU HAVE to for the mage stronghold. Also he never tells you to do anything evil. The worst thing your told to do is get rid of a man who wants to kill all wizards. If your on that quest then your a wizard.

Also how is working for Xzar evil. He wants his friend back. I feel bad that he died. He didn't die because he was evil. He dies because he cared about his friend.

Your idea has promise but your list needs to be redone from the ground up. Its over zealous way way over zealous and makes it imposible to finish the game with out taking a virtue hit.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 12:36:56 AM by Lord Kain »
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2005, 10:47:10 AM »
I'd like to suggest again that wearing Human Flesh Armour give a penalty of -1 per day, not per week. :)

Maybe steeper penalties for some of the other items too, but I think that the armour is possibly the worst.
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Offline jester

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2005, 11:42:58 AM »
The major shortcoming of such a list is twofold. Virtue operates in between 1 and 20 which does not give you enough leeway to punish you for everytime you do not let Aerie go to the loo in between fights and not sharing your sandwich. Theref ore a continous gain/loss of virtue points due to quasi-permanent (read long term) states makes you easily use 100 points in a couple of chapters which would make the whole concept absurd. The second problem which has been talked about elseweher as well is that there should be a delaying effect for playing your alignment. A good person murdering someone should not get the same virtue punishment as an evil one. A CN thief would not become the most evil person in the Realms, if he pickpocketed every other commoner he meets, but a paladin (I know they cannot, but let's just say they could) should not be able to make a living by taking stuff from others (Insert: How virtuos is it to loot every place you come to and to accept money in return for good deeds you would be required to perform anyway? I digress). Furthermore virtue should tilt more towards the neutral aspect making it easier to fall from 20 and 1 than to get away from the well-not-so-good-but-not-so-bad area.

All this gives me the feeling that a simple static list of do this and you loose that does not cut it. As an example from above: How many hits do you already get for making the Human Flesh Armour? I bet you must be way on the bad side to begin with. So how could a per day virtue hit have any meaning for you from the RPing perspective? I am pretty sure it was a bug or imbalance back then, but I had Valen join and every second the chimes went off and my virtue was lowered by one. So a per second penalty punishes the player not the PC, really.

Most of the stuff is not as well thought out as your other proposals.

Another off the cuff example:
Working for the Hidden: -1 (How does that work?)

Well, Gsus, I am a jolly paladin slaying dragons and smiting evil and generally minding my own business of spreading good manners, when all of a sudden Jan urges me to help him to rescue his true love who is dying of a strange disease. I accept, but only to find out that her cure rests with a quest from an evil guy in the sewers who wants me to slay othe evil guys....what can I say:  After loosing another virtue point (Killing the Githyanki in the Five Flagons: -1) I became a travelling CN carpenter and lived happily after. :P
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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2005, 12:01:15 PM »
'Working for the Hidden: -1' - it's virtuous to let a child die? If there's an alternative way to assist Jan with this issue that doesn't involve the Hidden, would someone please inform me of it?

'Giving the illithium alloy to Sir Sarles: -1' - at the risk of appearing dense: Why? With the exception of working for the temple of Talos, you are tasked by a good church to provide for a religious, artistic commission. In the process of doing so, one has the opportunity to both kill the notorious and depraved criminal Neb, and free the tormented and enslaved spirits of his victims. Good acts both, I would have thought. I do not recall it being a necessity to lie or kill innocents in order to complete this quest. The only possible point of contention I can see is associating with a typically evil race, personified by the surly Mr. Hilldark. Is that why? Personally I can't see it, as there is no information to suggest Mr. Hilldark is doing anything but legitimate, non-evil business. Is Sir Sarles a polymorphed demon, perhaps?

I think freeing Viconia should be a virtuous act if it isn't. It is an act of mercy after all. Mercy should transcend that she is a Drow. Further, I feel freeing her should be entirely separate ethically from any decision to have her remain in your company or not. It isn't necessary to have to kill the fanatics. It's arguable that they aren't innocent by their own actions, alignment and religious beliefs.

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2005, 12:55:15 PM »
Quote
Wearing the Ring of Gaxx: -1 per week
Could someone fill me in on why wearing the Ring of Gaxx is evil.  From what I rememeber the item is rather neutral, though with some strange physical altering effects (making the wearer's skin harden).  Maybe I'm just remembering the AD&D version though, so it may be different in the game.


Quote
Wearing the Robe of Vecna: -1 per week

Similar question, what about the item description makes this item evil?  I know that Vecna wasn't the nicest guy, but how does using one of his old possessions make you evil?  You could make the same argument about using the Holy Avenger, since it used to be the possession of a CE Red Dragon, or any number of other items looted off of evil individuals who used/created them.

Quote
I DON'T WANT YOU PLAYING WITH THOSE KIDS
Keeping Keldorn in the party: +1 per week
Keeping Korgan in the party: -1 per week
Keeping Mazzy in the party: +1 per week
Keeping Viconia in the party: -1 per week

Lame in my opinion.  Virtue should be affected by one's actions, not by who one fraternizes with.  One could make the argument that keeping Korgan or Viconia in your party might be the more virtuous thing to do, as you have more control over what they do, and can prevent evil actions on their part.  Also, you can cause Viconia to change in alignment, but your penalty would make this impossible since the PC would not have the correct alignment to do so (or is it reputation that is checked?)

Quote
Working for Aran Linvail: -1
This is required to advance the plot.  Virute should be something that the player can control, and not offering a virtuous path to the player sucks.

Quote
Working for King Ixilthetocal: -1
Working for Priestess Tlyysixxous / Prince Villynaty: -1
Another plot required path that is penalized no matter which path you take.  And, if you argue that you can just avoid this path and take the underdark portal, then that would be relying on metagame knowledge.  Additionally, by working for these individuals you can severely weaken one of the nastier groups of coastal raiders, which will prevent numerous deaths further down the line.

Quote
NOT DISPLAYING HUMILITY / GOOD MANNERS
Killing Mencar Pebblecrusher: -1

Umm, but he attacked me first.  I think that good manners should not be equated to virtue.

Quote
Working for the Aboleth: -1
Killing Quile: -1
In this case, the player may believe that they are forced to do the Aboleth's bidding or be exposed which will prevent their from being able to rescue the eggs that are needed to let the player escape from the underdark.  Something that would be nice though, is a chance to reveal the aboleth's plot to Quile and do a nice double-cross.  As it is, Quile goes hostile as soon as you see her and the player doesn't have a chance to betray the Aboleth to her.

Quote
Killing Jaylos and Caehan: -1
Are these the two thieves attempting to defect to Bodhi?  Yet again, they attack the player, and there is no dialogue options to try to convince them of the error of their ways.  Also, it is a plot required event.

Quote
Working for Lady Lurraxol: -1
Working for Lord Alibakkar: -1
Why is it non-virtuous to work for these nobles?  Neither of them are evil, and you need to agree to work with one of them for Lord Logan to approach you with his proposal.

Quote
Freeing the Enslaved Genie: +1
Killing the Enslaved Genie: -1

Aren't these the same thing?  I thought that killing the enslaved Genie freed him.  That's what the Genie begs after all "Kill me and release me back to my home plane" or something along those lines.

Quote
Encouraging Keldorn to uphold the law against cuckoldry: -1
Encouraging Keldorn to ignore the law against cuckoldry: -1
So damned if you do, and damned if you don't.  The player can't seem to do anything right when it comes to Keldorn's quest.

Quote
Agreeing to betray Matron Mother Ardulace: -1
Agreeing to betray King Ixilthetocal: -1

So even though doing both of these things will cause more good, you are penalized for them?

Quote
Killing the Elemental Lich: -1
Killing the Shade Lich: -1
Killing Kangaxx the Lich: -1

All of these guys attack first, and generally don't give the player much of a chance to back down.  So, why is it so evil to defend yourself against these evil creatures?  Something that would be nice, is to be able to converse with the liches that are guarding Kangaxx's bones, and be warned off, or given an alternative way to resolve the quest.  Since these liches are supposed to be guardians, it may be nice to help them resolve their problem with Kangaxx in a way other than killing them just so you can rid Amn of Kangaxx.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2005, 01:04:02 PM »
I was talking about items with Sim this afternoon on IRC. Most of the descs. suggest the items to be Evil, and I'd argue they would corrupt a player.

Quote
Ring of Gaxx
This ring is relatively unadorned, but the vile magic within radiates intense evil.  Indeed, its creator, Kangaxx, was no less evil himself, even before millennia of undeath honed his power.  It is said that a cadre of Netheril mages fought and imprisoned the demilich once, but being unable to truly destroy him they became liches themselves to stand guard over his remains.  The construction of the ring may have led to their enmity, as each of the gem's nine facets was supposedly empowered by sacrifice and death.

Quote
Blackrazor, Long Sword +3
This sword radiates evil like a sour odor, and the owner never knows if he wields the weapon, or if it wields him.  In addition to its combat abilities, Blackrazor slowly regenerates its owner with the drained strength of opponents.

Quote
Human Flesh +5
Made from human skin and treated with the blood of a noble dragon, this armor emits the stench of bitter death. The malevolent armor can only be used by a truly evil person.

Emphasis my own.

Granted the Robe of Vecna description does not suggest Evil intent in the item; but the story of Vecna certainly does.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2005, 02:02:25 PM »
Quote
Working for Jarlaxle: -1
Jarlaxle didn't strike me as particularly evil. He was quite a nice guy, I thought. Anyway, helping him achieves two things:

- saving the souls of loyal men (albeit Drow) from eternal imprisonment (as far as you know)
- retaining your secrecy, thus allowing you to save the Silver Dragon eggs.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2005, 02:13:16 PM »
If an evil man asked you to save the life of his two year old child, would accepting the task be an unvirtuous act? Of course not.

Virtue should depend on your actions, not on whom those actions are on behalf of.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2005, 04:03:46 PM »
Here's a couple of others for the list, both from Umar:

Threatening Erlin Hendrick (the farmer with the chicken): -1
Killing Maduif & co.: -1
Creating an alliance between Maduif & the village: +1
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 04:05:54 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2005, 04:04:16 PM »
I can't help but notice one or two items on the list are mroe related to lawfulness/chaos than virtue, such as the cuckoldry thing.  That tends o create a sort of rock and a hard place situation, when combined wiht virtue.

Offline belboz

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2005, 04:14:50 PM »
If you're going to have a list anything like this severe, you've got to apply something like minima and maxima.

For example, assuming carting Keldorn around for you should give you some bonus (I'm not sure I agree, but for the sake of argument), carting him around, even for a very long time, shouldn't be able to get you up to 20. I really don't think that any amount of mere *association* with even the best person ever should get your virtue above, say, 13. So a revised account would be:

Keldorn: +1 per week if virtue is less than 13; no bonus otherwise.

Similarly, even if you agree that cheating should cause a virtue hit--once you've been murdering and pillaging your way through the Realms, killing all heroes and aiding all villains you meet, a simple lie to your own material advantage shouldn't lower your virtue any further. I really don't think cheating should be able to lower your virtue below, say, 7--once it's down there, cheating is just what you do before breakfast. A murderer who cheats isn't really much worse than a scrupulously honest murderer.

(In an ideal world, this should probably even work for reputation--once your reputation is up around 15 or so, it should be substantially harder to increase it further, since people will start *expecting* you to do good deeds, and impressing them should require an extra mile. This is already implemented for temple donations, but not for good deeds. But that's beyond the scope of this mod, I think.)

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2005, 11:37:56 PM »
Yep, it was the AD&D version of the Ring of Gaxx I was thinking about:

Quote
of Gaxx
XP Value: — GP Value: —
Book of Artifacts
The ring of gaxx is a nine-sided, blue gem mounted in a platinum base on a plain, 'A inch
platinum band. Inside is a string of letters—the only legible word is "Gaxx."

While wandering among the Mountains of Storms, a luckless fighter named Krednel discovered
some old buildings. Entering to take shelter, Krednel discovered the remains of a creature
unlike any he had ever seen before. Krednel noticed an odd ring on one of the creature's fingers, and took for his own.

Four days later, Krednel awoke to find that his skin had hardened into a natural armor. Panic
stricken, he raced for a pool of water, where he was horrified at his reflection. There in the
watery mirror was a creature with 8-inch horns and scaled skin. He frantically pulled off the ring
and ran to visit an old dwarf friend, Lorak Ironhand,an expert on gems. Lorak could not identify
the ring but offered to buy it from Krednel. Krednel snatched the money and disappeared.

The ring of Gaxx is a good item for creating some unusual mysteries to solve. One possible
adventure could unfold with a village seeking help in ridding itself of a fierce, hideous monster
that is terrorizing the place, and at the same time solve the disappearance of the town's rare merchandise dealer.

Constant Powers: The wearer is immune to all forms of disease, both normal and magical.

Invoked Powers: Each of the nine sides of the gem has its own power. The active side faces the finger tip and the entire ring is impossible to mark. The gem rotates clockwise one segment when one of the following occurs: it is put on, worn while sleeping, or the stone is turned. Once all nine powers have been discovered, the wearer can use the powers with 90% accuracy. Two of the powers are stoneskin (twice a day) and invisibility (once a day).

Random Powers: Two from Artifact Table 1-13: Healing, two from Artifact Table 1-17:
Movement, two from Artifact Table 1-18: Offensive Powers, and one from Artifact Table
1-23: Protection.

Curse: Once the ring is worn for more than 48 continuous hours, it begins to transform the wearer (over the next 96 hours) into a creature of unknown origin. A thick pair of horns grows 2 inches above the ears; the skin hardens into thick scales, providing a natural AC of 5. The eyes develop infravision (90 feet) and daylight becomes painful (-2 penalty to attack rolls). The lower canines extend an inch beyond the lips, Horn and bite attacks are possible, inflicting
1d4/ld4/ld6 points of damage.

To reverse an incomplete transformation, the ring must be removed for a number of hours
equal to the number worn. However, once the change is complete, it is permanent. The wearer
now needs the ring to survive—without it death occurs within 72 hours.

Suggested Means of Destruction:
• The ring must be taken by hand to the center of the sun.
• Return it to the alien culture who crafted it.
• The creatures that created the ring must be found and the ring returned to them.

Which is actually quite an interesting item.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2005, 12:26:33 AM »
Well, I still don't agree that killing Drizzt is a much more egregious crime than killing Windspear or Reyna, or any other innocent person for that matter.
Drizzt is -3 because if you killed him, you killed his friends as well (which is also why Reyna is -2). True, I've never read any Drizzt stuff, but if they're a force for Good and are as powerful and famous in the game as they appear to be, I'd say intentionally killing them means you're one evil bastard.


Having evil characters in your party does not make you evil.
As I said, I'm listing everything. Disagree with "alignment influence by peer pressure" if you wish, but a couple of people have liked the idea. Just because it's on the list doesn't mean it'll be implemented.

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you wipe out half the game with your list. Ok first off you destory the underdark path.

Working for Solaufein / Imrae: -1
Working for Phaere: -1
Working for Matron Mother Ardulace: -1
and betraying Mother Ardulace.

All of these things are needed to get out of the Drow city in secret.
I should point out that it's entirely possible (and, indeed, good roleplaying for a Paladin) to simply give his correct name to the guard at the Ust Natha Gate, and then simply stride in and kill everyone who tries to stop him, all the way to Adalon's eggs. In fact, combat-wise, this path is significantly easier than some of the optional "undercover" Ust Natha-related stuff, like the Mage duels in the tavern or the Illithid Tunnels.

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DSolaufein whorships a chaotic good deity. Not loith!
Unless you actually Detect Evil, the party fully believes that they're working for an Evil Drow. And even if they DO Detect Evil, they still ARE working for Evil Drow in the form of Imrae, Phaere, and Ardulace.

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You have to work for Aran or Bodhi you can't slap some one with a virtue hit no matter what the pick.
Thus emphasizing my belief that everyone, even Paladins, should be allowed at least a little bit of leeway without suffering any permanent crippling effects to their character. Enough leeway to work for someone Evil, and obey them when they call out a hit on somebody.

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Killing Kangaxx the Lich( he already attacks you its self-defense also its an evil lich!)
I've changed this to freeing Kangaxx the Lich. (Under the 'Blasphemy' section for now, until I think of something better.) From what the Shade Lich and Elemental Lich say, the PC should have at least enough doubt to explore Kangaxx's conversation tree and hear the "a thousand years of suffering" line, thus pretty soundly confirming that this is an Evil that should be left imprisoned.

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Obtaining "Blood of a Noble race": -1 also part of the underdark the blood is from an evil creature, Which you might already have from stumbling about.
Kish supports a Virtue hit for killing intelligent creatures at Ardulace's behest, and she has some good arguments to support it, so it goes on the list. The fact that it's included under "Acting as hitman for evil boss" means you aren't just 'stumbling about.'

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You can lie but still be good. Its called Chaotic Good
True, but it still is rather unvirtuous by its very nature. "Thou shalt not bear false witness," if I may be allowed to make a non-FR reference.

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"Killing Ihtafeer: -1" Ithafeer is evil. And it requried to finish trademeet.
Hitman. Evil boss. And how does the PC know that Khan Zahraa is really seeking Ihtafeer's head for a moral purpose? This is just like Edwin calling a hit on Rayic Gethras, except that Ihtafeer is assumed Evil because of her birth while Gethras is assumed Evil because of his career choice.

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Also how is working for Xzar evil. He wants his friend back. I feel bad that he died. He didn't die because he was evil. He dies because he cared about his friend.
He died because he was an Evil Necromancer in the service of the Zhentarim, and working in opposition to the Harpers. The Harpers may only be Neutral (opinions vary), but compared to the Zhentarim, they're saints.


The major shortcoming of such a list is twofold. Virtue operates in between 1 and 20 which does not give you enough leeway to punish you for everytime you do not let Aerie go to the loo in between fights and not sharing your sandwich.
Quite true. I'm deliberately listing everything, we'll weed it out later. It's hardly like that Sim will implement Virtue drops for working for Ixilthetocal, and betraying Ixilthetocal, and working for Villynaty, and killing Ixilthetocal. Unless he shifts from a 20-point scale to 200 or something.

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Another off the cuff example:
Working for the Hidden: -1 (How does that work?)
Yup. I threw this (and Ihtafeer) in as a counterpoint to the whole Edwin/Gethras thing. The similarities pretty much dictate that a Virtue hit from one means the others deserve a hit, too.


'Giving the illithium alloy to Sir Sarles: -1' - at the risk of appearing dense: Why?
Because you lied to / misled him by not supplying him with the real thing.

Of course, there are those who would argue that to invest such a priceless resource as illithium into some useless sculpture when the city is under attack by Undead is pretty damn stupid (and I'd be one of them), and the resulting risk to civilians is what deserves the Virtue loss, not lying to Sarles. But to me, that's less illogical than the "fact" that it takes 200 pounds of metal to coat an 8-pound Mace.

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I think freeing Viconia should be a virtuous act if it isn't. It is an act of mercy after all.
I believe the current arrangement slaps a -1 penalty to Reputation if you free her, and -1 to Virtue if you don't. Would you prefer a +1 to Virtue for freeing, and leaving the result of your inaction to be no change at all?

What *I* would prefer is for some more clarity on the whole situation. For instance, is the execution legal, or isn't it? True, the ringleader is clearly labeled "Fanatic" and worships a deity who sounds Evil, but then the Amnish Guards flanking the door of the Prison aren't doing anything to stop it. Also, did Viconia actually commit a crime or didn't she? Was she tried? You (the PC) have about six seconds to find that out, and that's only if you talk to the right person.


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Wearing the Robe of Vecna: -1 per week
Similar question, what about the item description makes this item evil?  I know that Vecna wasn't the nicest guy, but how does using one of his old possessions make you evil?  You could make the same argument about using the Holy Avenger, since it used to be the possession of a CE Red Dragon, or any number of other items looted off of evil individuals who used/created them.
Firkraag only has Carsomyr because he presumably looted it from a Paladin he killed. The Robe of Vecna, on the other hand, is magical simply from absorbing the aura of the incredibly evil Lich/god.

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Working for Aran Linvail: -1
This is required to advance the plot.  Virute should be something that the player can control, and not offering a virtuous path to the player sucks.
I agree on all counts.

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Additionally, by working for these individuals [the Sahuagin] you can severely weaken one of the nastier groups of coastal raiders, which will prevent numerous deaths further down the line.
Which is a thorny issue: Weaken them and the Kou-Toa and Illithids will take over and replace them....unless you kill them too, in which case the Sahuagin will come back stronger than ever, etc. And a Druid would not condone the virtual extermination of any of these species, anyway.

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Killing Mencar Pebblecrusher: -1
Umm, but he attacked me first.  I think that good manners should not be equated to virtue.
True. But a Paladin would realize that this guy has enough aggravation trying to control his own group, and swallow his pride long enough to let well enough alone.

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Working for the Aboleth: -1
Killing Quile: -1
In this case, the player may believe that they are forced to do the Aboleth's bidding or be exposed which will prevent their from being able to rescue the eggs that are needed to let the player escape from the underdark.  Something that would be nice though, is a chance to reveal the aboleth's plot to Quile and do a nice double-cross.  As it is, Quile goes hostile as soon as you see her and the player doesn't have a chance to betray the Aboleth to her.
Good call.

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Working for Lady Lurraxol: -1
Working for Lord Alibakkar: -1
Why is it non-virtuous to work for these nobles?  Neither of them are evil, and you need to agree to work with one of them for Lord Logan to approach you with his proposal.
Both are Evil (he's Chaotic, she's Lawful), and the player can't know about Logan's suggestion in advance.

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Freeing the Enslaved Genie: +1
Killing the Enslaved Genie: -1
Aren't these the same thing?  I thought that killing the enslaved Genie freed him.  That's what the Genie begs after all "Kill me and release me back to my home plane" or something along those lines.
This isn't Dola Fadoon, the torture victim in Ust Natha, but the one in the Selfish test in Hell.

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Encouraging Keldorn to uphold the law against cuckoldry: -1
Encouraging Keldorn to ignore the law against cuckoldry: -1
So damned if you do, and damned if you don't.  The player can't seem to do anything right when it comes to Keldorn's quest.
Exactly. I realize that the Virtue mod currently doesn't use the Law-Chaos axis, but we are talking about a Paladin here.


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Working for Jarlaxle: -1
Jarlaxle didn't strike me as particularly evil. He was quite a nice guy, I thought. Anyway, helping him achieves two things:
- saving the souls of loyal men (albeit Drow) from eternal imprisonment (as far as you know)
- retaining your secrecy, thus allowing you to save the Silver Dragon eggs.
Saving Drow from Imprisonment doesn't sound all that Good to me. And Adalon's eggs have nothing to do with the matter if you do this entire quest in Chapter 6 (which is quite possible). But I should make that more clear, you're right. And list a Virtue penalty for browbeating the Rope out of Visaj.


If you're going to have a list anything like this severe, you've got to apply something like minima and maxima.
....So a revised account would be:
Keldorn: +1 per week if virtue is less than 13; no bonus otherwise.

Similarly, once you've been murdering and pillaging your way through the Realms, killing all heroes and aiding all villains you meet, a simple lie to your own material advantage shouldn't lower your virtue any further.
Another good idea.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2005, 02:22:09 AM »
As I said Lord Alibakkar is only evil with Oversight installed, and this is one instance where Kish made a boo-boo.
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Offline jester

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2005, 03:00:25 AM »
Yes, belboz hints at the right way of doing this IMHO. Then we can squabble about how much virtue you should loose for mouthing of to Letinan or however he is spelled, but I now understand that you wanted to list every instance in the game that could possibly affect your virtue. ;)
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2005, 08:33:12 AM »
I think some people should remember that being Virtuous does not equate keeping to the Paladin's code of honour. Lying is against the code, but not neccesarily unviruous. Virtue has more effect on Paladins than on others, but it's not made solely for them.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2005, 10:41:24 AM »
I think some people should remember that being Virtuous does not equate keeping to the Paladin's code of honour. Lying is against the code, but not neccesarily unviruous. Virtue has more effect on Paladins than on others, but it's not made solely for them.

Aha!  There was something sort of bugging me about all the various arguments here and there, and I didn't even realize that this was it.

Even your average work-a-day lawful good fighter, mage, or perhaps even cleric might in the course of his life lie, cheat, steal, lash out in anger, or any number of things.  Some may even be intentional, with the character's full intent to do greater good afterwards to balance it out, but for a paladin to do any of them is unthinkable.

That sort of gets to an idea that I've been told about recently, concerning paladins.  Keeping a paladin from falling is *very* difficult, and to compromise here and there doesn't sit well with me.  If you're going to play the absolute image of all that is Good and Holy, you're going to have to make sacrifices, and yes, even meta-game sacrifices like losing out on XP, good-through-questionable-means quests, and phat lewt.  Maybe one of these days I shall play a hot-headed Cavalier that charges into the fray without thinking one too many times, and falls for his misdeeds.  That ought to be fun.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2005, 12:08:13 PM »
I've been thinking of playing a Fallen character (P or R) for a time now. Maybe have them redeemed by the stronghold quests, but then again, maybe not.

I've had a character be permanently "tainted" by his time in Hell, when he failed one or more Hell Trials and became Evil (originally a Lawful Good Monk). Led to some drastic party reformations and change in playing style in ToB. Good fun though...

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2005, 01:13:32 PM »
Heheh, nice.  My current PC is a LG half-orcish cleric of helm (Yeah, a bit of SKing), who so far has a virtue of 15, but a reputation of 8 (10, but Viconia joined the party).  Virtue really makes doing stuff like this way more fun.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2005, 10:01:24 PM »
Tiny edit: The connection between the Slave Lords and the Temple District is provided not by the register that Isaea keeps in his estate, but by the letter carried by what's-his-face in the Sea's Bounty, which can be pickpocketed or looted from him. Sion-related Virtue changes adjusted accordingly.

Offline Murdane

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Re: Evolving Virtue-affector list
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2005, 10:13:55 PM »
Well, I still don't agree that killing Drizzt is a much more egregious crime than killing Windspear or Reyna, or any other innocent person for that matter.
Drizzt is -3 because if you killed him, you killed his friends as well (which is also why Reyna is -2). True, I've never read any Drizzt stuff, but if they're a force for Good and are as powerful and famous in the game as they appear to be, I'd say intentionally killing them means you're one evil bastard.

I agree you should lose virtue for killing Drizzt, but not any more than you would for killing any other "innocent" person.  Drizzt is just one out of many, many do-gooders throughout the Realms (some well known, some never heard about), so I don't believe killing him should have such a steep penalty.  He is a CG drow ranger, not the Ultimate Incarnation of Pure Goodness, to be a bit emphatic.

And like I said in some other threads, no hero in the Realms is famous everywhere, and even if an NPC (or PC, for that matter) has *heard* of a certain hero, that doesn't mean they know everything about him, or on what scale said hero is a force for good.  While I'm at it, the Drizzt books tend to be rather insular, and most of the good deeds Drizzt does are centered around the North (which means someone from the Shining South or Aglarond, for example, may never have heard of or been affected by Drizzt in any way).

PS: To my knowledge the PC never "works" for Simyaz, you simply agree to work with him to get out of the Ilithid stronghold.  Once inside the ilithid lair, you have no choice but to work with him, as far as I know anyway.  That isn't quite the same thing as working *for* him.  I would be interested, however, in whether or not people think there should be a virtue hit for refusing to give back the Silver Sword.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 10:16:32 PM by Murdane »

 

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