Author Topic: A Question of "Virtue"  (Read 5307 times)

Offline Kai of CandleKeep

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A Question of "Virtue"
« on: December 31, 2004, 04:33:24 PM »
I'm presently struggling with the whole Rayic Gethras/Edwin scenario here.

I'm not playing a paladin in my current game, but I do have questions regarding how the choices you are given will affect your virtue, especially in the case of a paladin.

Even if you take the option to resort to less horrific means than "murder and torture" when speaking to Edwin, when you go to confront Gethras in his home, he basically asks you to deceive Edwin by returning the signet ring and pretending that he is dead.

This is where I find a problem. A paladin cannot -- or rather, SHOULD not -- lie, or agree to any form of deception, even if it is to circumvent an evil act such as murder.  Surely there can be additional diallogues such as "I will need your signet ring, but I cannot promise anything," or something to that effect?  As I see it currently, either option ends with a virtue hit, because both options (killing Gethras or lying to Edwin) are evil as far as a paladin's code of honor goes.  I could be wrong, of course, but...it was worth asking.

Perhaps the easier solution would be to prevent Edwin from going hostile if you outright decline to perform this task?  An alternative task, maybe? 
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Offline Murdane

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2004, 04:41:34 PM »
You're not wrong--lying goes against the Paladin's code of conduct.  It's an interesting question you ask, nonetheless, and I'm eager to see what some have to say about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2004, 11:29:02 PM by Murdane »

Offline Kai of CandleKeep

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2004, 04:52:41 PM »
Then again... as I continue to play through the Mae'var quest.... it occurred to me that a truly righteous man (read: paladin) would not even be doing errands for a den of thieves in the first place   ::)

Ahhhh, the flaws of the game.  Oh well.  Back to testing.
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I find you amusing... in a "What the hell is wrong with you?" kind of way...
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2004, 05:18:32 PM »
 lying is kinda like magic - it depends what you're doing with it.  if the paladin is "bending" the code (i.e. deceiving a red wizard, thereby saving lives, preventing undue suffering, etc.), then they should be able to atone for their 'misdeed' and recover lost honor.  if the lie directly feeds or leads to an evil outcome, they're fallen and they mustn't be let back up.
 and as you say - the involvement with a thieves' guild is a bit odd in the first place.  i was quite disappointed when i found out that neither renal nor mae'var react to the presence of a paladin PC (who admittedly could conceivably 'dress down', if not a cavalier anyway), or even keldorn, in their hiring/interview moments.
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Galactygon

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2004, 06:20:05 PM »
Remember that Paladin are not only the force of good, but also the force of law, truth, and order. It is part of their alignment and code of honour not to say a lie, no matter "the greater good" or how foolish it seems. Lying "for the greater good" is more fit for a non-lawful but good character (ie. neutral or chaotic good). See the alignment descriptions in the BG2 manual for proof (or even a reliable DnD source).

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Offline belboz

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2004, 07:59:44 PM »
Then again... as I continue to play through the Mae'var quest.... it occurred to me that a truly righteous man (read: paladin) would not even be doing errands for a den of thieves in the first place   ::)

Ahhhh, the flaws of the game.  Oh well.  Back to testing.

Well, as people have pointed out (in other threads), you really don't have to play through the Mae'var quest at all...especially if you aren't a thief. The only thing you *have* to do for the Shadow Thieves (well, there's an option even here, but it's far worse) is clear out a lair of evil vampires, something a Paladin should probably be happy to do regardless of the client. So in general, this isn't exactly a flaw in the game. Think of Mae'Var as a quest that's not open to LG characters, just as the planar sphere isn't really open to a (properly role-played) LE character--who should presumably bring Valygar's body back to the Cowled wizards.

Offline Kai of CandleKeep

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2004, 08:17:35 PM »
Well, as people have pointed out (in other threads), you really don't have to play through the Mae'var quest at all...especially if you aren't a thief. The only thing you *have* to do for the Shadow Thieves (well, there's an option even here, but it's far worse) is clear out a lair of evil vampires, something a Paladin should probably be happy to do regardless of the client. So in general, this isn't exactly a flaw in the game. Think of Mae'Var as a quest that's not open to LG characters, just as the planar sphere isn't really open to a (properly role-played) LE character--who should presumably bring Valygar's body back to the Cowled wizards.


And this, I think, it's the best answer I could have hoped to receive.  Nicely said.
Having a highly active imagination can be very taxing on the purity of one's soul at times...
- Sir Kalthorine ut Wistan

I find you amusing... in a "What the hell is wrong with you?" kind of way...
- Jaheira, BG1

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2005, 09:43:31 AM »
Yeh, also consider that while it may go against a paladin's code to lie, it isn't actually evil. As Galactygon said, it's more of a chaotic way of handling things. There's no Virtue hit necessary though, in my eyes.
However, you're right about the extra dialogue options. Will add something along the lines of your suggestion.

Offline jester

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2005, 12:19:07 PM »
Quests being exclusively geared at a certain alignment or class increase the replayability value of a game. Especially, if they really have different outcomes instead of cosmetic changes. QP will give you even more options, but good roleplaying is about making choices which means giving up options. If you feel bad about missing out on the evil-love-machine's quest, then think about what evil characters get shorttraded in experience points elsewhere. CE assassins don't free the slaves, LG paladins don't mingle with thieves.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: A Question of "Virtue"
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2005, 01:11:47 PM »
When it came down to writing the actual dialogue, I simply couldn't find a way in which Rayic could agree to you saying "fine, I might just run off and not bring you Edwin". It doesn't fit with his motivations. I have, however, made an amendment to the dialogue which might make a paladin think a little more about whether or not apprehending Edwin is the way to go.

 

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