Author Topic: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.  (Read 8795 times)

Offline neriana

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2004, 05:11:58 AM »
I don't think causing your friend to die because you have a tantrum is any less evil than causing him/her to die from premeditation. It's self-absorption that costs another his or her life either way.
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2004, 05:23:57 AM »
 
  i seem to recall cold-tempered/explosive-critical deaths to be permanent even on Normal.  (or was that Core?  i'm pretty sure it was Normal.)
  i agree from a realistic roleplaying standpoint.  but these exceptional [again, i call lazy design] circumstances, where even non-bhaalspawn still get to call on their gods for seventh level spells such as, oh let's say Resurrection, at least once every eight hours (of hypothetically uninterrupted sleep - did i mention you can all sleep in the Abyss?)  in that context, i see selfishness, but not much of a 'Price of Selfishness', in saying "yes, i will sacrifice you, and bring you right back a little later" - especially since you'll subsequently get the benefit of the tear anyway.  (although it'd at least mean something to have them pissed off/[having been]in agony when you bring them back, a la a certain post-bandit jaheira...
  but anyway indeed. :(

 
Quote from: neriana
I don't think causing your friend to die because you have a tantrum is any less evil than causing him/her to die from premeditation.
i for one wasn't thinking of it as a 'neutral alternative', or alignment-based at all.  just a bit more versatility in reacting to a test that is more keyed to personal relationships than any of the other tests [vague exception of Wrath].  and some form of protest against the whole set-up, even if it is ultimately self-centered, evil, or what-have-you.  more for want of the choice than a desire for a whole new outcome.  (although i think a tear that helps open the gate but gives no bonuses is worth considering for any/all trials.  is that how the neutral ones work?)
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Kish

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2004, 05:33:58 AM »

  i seem to recall cold-tempered/explosive-critical deaths to be permanent even on Normal.  (or was that Core?  i'm pretty sure it was Normal.)
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "cold-tempered/explosive-critical" here.  Freezing won't kill party members permanently on normal; chunky deaths for party members don't occur on normal.  If you mean something else, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure nothing can permanently kill a party member on Normal.  (Something which removes the character from the party followed by damage or disintegration can mean permanent destruction, but I think that's about it.)
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  i agree from a realistic roleplaying standpoint.  but these exceptional [again, i call lazy design] circumstances, where even non-bhaalspawn still get to call on their gods for seventh level spells such as, oh let's say Resurrection, at least once every eight hours (of hypothetically uninterrupted sleep - did i mention you can all sleep in the Abyss?)  in that context, i see selfishness, but not much of a 'Price of Selfishness', in saying "yes, i will sacrifice you, and bring you right back a little later" - especially since you'll subsequently get the benefit of the tear anyway.  (although it'd at least mean something to have them pissed off/[having been]in agony when you bring them back, a la a certain post-bandit jaheira...
Why should there be a price?  That's the point; you can avoid any consequences to you, if you choose to be selfish.  Korgan gets to be torn limb from limb, but you can put him back together in time to be of use to you, and he doesn't get to vote on whether this is a good idea.  Considering you're in a region shaped by the evil within CHARNAME, I'd say choosing to be evil should absolutely have no downside but that of becoming officially evil.

And as far as spellcasting and resting goes--your companions have the support of the master of the domain, after all, and you are the master of the domain.
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(although i think a tear that helps open the gate but gives no bonuses is worth considering for any/all trials.  is that how the neutral ones work?)
No, you get benefits from them, too--different benefits, but about as powerful as the good and evil ones.
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2004, 05:53:40 AM »
(Something which removes the character from the party followed by damage or disintegration can mean permanent destruction, but I think that's about it.)
ah yes.  i am probably confusing a Hard game with a few Normal instances of petrification + excess damage.
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I'd say choosing to be evil should absolutely have no downside but that of becoming officially evil.
*forhedsmakk* yeah, i'd kind of lost sight of the actual alignment-affecting effect.  but "losing your shit" isn't the same as "choosing to be evil".  (another point where bg could learn a lot from torment.  1-Truth: "Yes." / 2-Truth: "No." / 3-Lie: "Yes." / 4-Lie: "No." / 5-[blind rage] Die foul creature! (Attack it.)
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your companions have the support of the master of the domain, after all, and you are the master of the domain.
hm.  i thought this was fully understood in the expansion / pocket plane, but not so much before you've 'got your soul back'...
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline jester

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2004, 06:02:32 AM »
I have never tried this, but can you get that sacrificed group member back from the Fate spirit or do you get the Yoshimo answer? I should have roleplayed my CN people more thoroughly. :(

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another point where bg could learn a lot from torment.  1-Truth: "Yes." / 2-Truth: "No." / 3-Lie: "Yes." / 4-Lie: "No." / 5-[blind rage] Die foul creature! (Attack it.)

 ::) Hear! hear! These new options would need a whole rehaul of how dialogues work from the speaker's perspective in BG as intentions are only implied in answers, if indicated at all. :(
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2004, 06:06:45 AM »
::) Hear! hear! These new options would need a whole rehaul of how dialogues work from the speaker's perspective in BG as intentions are only implied in answers, if indicated at all. :(
ooh!  the prospects thicken.  as soon as my audio infrastructure stops impregnating all recordings with fuzzy static, i'm all over it.
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Kish

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2004, 06:07:58 AM »
I have never tried this, but can you get that sacrificed group member back from the Fate spirit or do you get the Yoshimo answer?
You can't summon anyone who died in SoA from the Fate Spirit.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2004, 08:11:12 AM »
Perhaps a Neutral character (or even a non-Neutral too) could simply refuse to take the tests, not get the Tears, and force open the doors to the final battle through strength of will?
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2004, 08:40:23 AM »
 if they are indeed the master of the realm  :pirate
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

 

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