Author Topic: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.  (Read 8797 times)

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« on: December 06, 2004, 07:26:51 PM »
I've been thinking about that test in hell. Where you have to decided on losing a point of dex and 2hp or losing a party member.

I think thats not a good test. It should always be some random commoner as if your alone.

If your playing an evil group. Viconia, Edwin, Korgan, you can't really afford to lose one of them and you might not want to lose the dex either. Also its cheesy to temporary kick them all out or set the difficulty down low so they can be raised after they've died.
None of these characters are pure evil. Evil can have friends and evil can love.
Edwin and Korgan look like their friends.
Sarevok loved Tomoko and Viconia even if she stays Netural evil can love the PC.

So there are many reason why an evil character won't sacrifice a party member in the test. But what reason is there not to sacrifice the commoner, other then saving him being the right thing to do.

My point is an evil character might save party member because their useful not because he's nice.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Neffra

  • Yaiye!
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 127
  • Gender: Female
  • Pirate Fish
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2004, 07:49:00 PM »
No, its not flawed at all, IMO.

The idea is they're asking whether you'd rather sacrifice a 'friend/comrade' than sacrifice a part of yourself. Its not really about good and evil, but about what you're willing to give up to get what you want. Selfishness, just like the test implies. The fact that they're forcing you to choose a party member makes an evil character think a lot harder about what's more important: Keeping all their comrades around, or give up that Dex. Has nothing to do with being nice or fair to evil characters. Its what's more important to the character between the choices given.

A life is a life, be it commoner or party member. That's the point. The test is supposed to be difficult, not a matter of sacrificing some no name commoner so you get to have your cake and eat it too. (Don't lose a valued party member and don't lose a part of yourself. For evil, there's not really a test there because of course evil would always choose the death of the commoner. That's a no-brainer.  Making you choose one of the party is so much more difficult, don't you agree? And a far better judge of selfishness.)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 07:51:10 PM by Neffra »

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2004, 08:12:40 PM »
if your already evil none of the other ones are tests either so why should this one be any different.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Zyraen

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2004, 08:29:34 PM »
Anyway, you can always ressurrect someone in your party who dies.
If I'm not mistaken, even letting your lover die won't break the romance (it will still be 2, I think).
(http://www.geocities.com/arkevaul/btlbn2.gif)
SoA Release - Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, & more

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2004, 08:30:38 PM »
Anyway, you can always ressurrect someone in your party who dies.
...if you play on Normal or Novice.
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Lord Kain

  • "I was the 500th member on the old forgottenwars forum and all I got was this lousy title"
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
  • Gender: Male
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2004, 10:43:16 PM »
bringing them back to life just makes the test stupider.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Reverendratbastard

  • Perfunctory Psychopomp
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Gender: Male
  • "to keep my metaphysics warm" -T.S.Eliot
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2004, 11:58:21 PM »
  being able to bring them back to life afterwards makes the test poorly coded.  inanely, even.  (is that marked for correction?)
  the only rationale i can think of [speaking as a pc who, at the most munchkin, would prefer the 'evil tear reward' to the 'good tear reward' and wasn't evil to begin with] is to get rid of someone you wouldn't want in your party anyway (and have dragged all the way to hell with something like this in mind?).
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Andyr

  • Dance Commander
  • Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gibberlings Three IE mod community
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2004, 05:37:09 AM »
My Evil PCs regularly sarcifice Korgan or Viconia. If they get in the way of my power, that's their problem, party member or not. :)
"We are the Gibberlings Three, as merry a band as you ever did see..." - Home of IE mods

<jcompton> Suggested plugs include "Click here so Compton doesn't ban me. http://www.pocketplane.net/ub"

I am unfortunately not often about these days so the best way to get hold of me is via email.

Offline Caedwyr

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2004, 05:43:24 AM »
I regularly use the Improved Hell Trials mod, and choose the neutral response (refuse to play the demon's game).
"Knowledge is Power.  Power Corrupts.  Study Hard.  Be Evil."  - Mikka

PnP Celestials
Geomantic Sorcerer Kit

Offline Zyraen

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2004, 06:48:32 AM »
Actually I was playing hard.. I practically play hard all the time with my evil party... o.O maybe I did that before I got ToB or something.
(http://www.geocities.com/arkevaul/btlbn2.gif)
SoA Release - Love between a Law Enforcer and a Fugitive - can such a thing even happen?

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods - Ust Natha Accelerator, item tweaks, & more

Offline Echon

  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • Gender: Male
    • The Fields of the Dead
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2004, 07:14:30 AM »
The powergamer inside me does not like losing that one point of dexterity. The roleplayer inside me who is romancing Viconia and who sees Edwin and Korgan as his comrades does not like having to sacrifice any of them. I think this is one of the best tests as it is a difficult decision to make.

-Echon

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2004, 04:30:09 PM »
I agree with Echon on this one.  It's actually a decision that takes some balls to make, one way or the other.  Were I to change how this was implemented, I would make the decision harsher for a solo player somehow, and make the NPC that an evil PC sacrifices die permanently.
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline SimDing0™

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2004, 04:31:51 PM »
Yeh, this is an area where I think Revised Hell Trials could do better. It's a cop out to fight the demon and not have to make a proper decision.

Ideas for improved neutral paths are encouraged.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2004, 04:38:59 PM »
Perhaps you choose to attack the demon, only it uses its mega hell powers to scar both you AND your NPC, only to a lesser extent than either of the other two extremes.  Like, they lose some stats, and you lose... well, less than what you already lose.
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline SimDing0™

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2004, 04:41:23 PM »
Yeh, maybe. And you lose less virtue if it's an innocent getting scarred.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2004, 07:28:47 PM »
Yeh, maybe. And you lose less virtue if it's an innocent getting scarred.
I hope you mean, "...than if it's an innocent getting killed."
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2004, 07:30:29 PM »
Yeh, maybe. And you lose less virtue if it's an innocent getting scarred.

How would your PC know that scarring is "all" that would happen, and not destruction?
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2004, 07:59:29 PM »
I'm not sure the PC should lose virtue at all for charging at the demon.  That is what we're talking about, right?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Mongoose87

  • Brain Specialist
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 426
  • Gender: Male
  • Not dead, yet
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2004, 09:54:06 PM »
Yeah, if it's neutral, how is a virtue loss necessary?  Can't really add neutral virtue, can we?

Offline Reverendratbastard

  • Perfunctory Psychopomp
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Gender: Male
  • "to keep my metaphysics warm" -T.S.Eliot
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2004, 10:43:50 PM »
I'm not sure the PC should lose virtue at all for charging at the demon.  That is what we're talking about, right?

  well, we're talking about it now, and you're absolutely right.  unless it is determined that charname is involved in an unconscious pact with their testors.
  in fact, i always thought it questionable that many Good PCs would/should 'play by the rules' in the first place.  of course, going down each path can be taken as tacit acceptance of the terms, but that a paladin or [even moreso] a CG individual would place their party in the hands of demon judges without any "assurances" (can't think of any realistic ones anyway, when we're already in the abyss) or protests, is a tad weak.

  then again, from here we could get into the rather pointless-at-this-stage argument that the Abyss is not where regulated trials are at all likely to occur (as opposed to the nine hells).  but... yeah. meh.
 
Quote
Can't really add neutral virtue, can we?
i don't think Virtue is made for Good PCs Only.  that wouldn't be the issue.  after all, with virtue, a non-good character can become good (and vice versa?) even without taking the hell trial possibilities into account.

the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2004, 11:22:38 PM »
I'm not sure the PC should lose virtue at all for charging at the demon.  That is what we're talking about, right?

  well, we're talking about it now, and you're absolutely right. 
Charging the demon after the demon has already taken someone (a party member or an innocent bystander) hostage is, at least, pretty profoundly stupid if not uncaring (a lot like a certain action you can take at one point in the Jaheira romance which brings the romance to an unceremonious end).
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Reverendratbastard

  • Perfunctory Psychopomp
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Gender: Male
  • "to keep my metaphysics warm" -T.S.Eliot
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2004, 12:41:21 AM »

 oh, i thought we were talking about charging the demon instead of agreeing to either original choice. ::)
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2004, 12:48:45 AM »
Clarify.  You mean somehow preventing the demon from grabbing someone?  Nice trick if you can do it.
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Reverendratbastard

  • Perfunctory Psychopomp
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Gender: Male
  • "to keep my metaphysics warm" -T.S.Eliot
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2004, 03:44:07 AM »

 that a paladin or [even moreso] a CG individual would place their party in the hands of demon judges without any "assurances" . . . or protests, is a tad weak.

  what i was envisioning: first, party goes down the stairs/tunnel.  second, demon says "choose: the life of your companion, or your continued optimum physical health/prowess".  third, charname is incensed, challenges the demon for its presumption and [or merely] attacks.  or has a "no fair!" tantrum and attacks.  or something.  even a rage borne of pure indecision.

  i'm not saying that attacking the demon should prevent it from separating/imprisoning/devouring/etc. the NPC.  but i certainly don't think a 'hotheaded' option is unwarranted (it seems particular to this test, as the others (i'm only remembering four others off the bat, are there six total?) already have one essentially hostile choice each.  one can surely be under a great deal of stress having been [presumably unwittingly] dragged to the abyss and expected to play ball with incarnations of evil, no matter what one's alignment is.
  plus which, one shouldn't be forced to accept [however absolutely true it might be] that higher powers are in control and one can't buck the system.  without at least this (or some other) 'opportunity' to defy the trial process.  not being able to open the gate is one thing.  going along with trials adjudicated by demons is rather another, methinx.

Quote from: Kish
Nice trick if you can do it.
perhaps a very very quick, clever and potent assault could save the companion (and charname's stats), but yield a tear that gave no bonuses.
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: do you think the Selfishness test in hell is flawed.
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2004, 05:02:43 AM »
  being able to bring them back to life afterwards makes the test poorly coded.  inanely, even. 
I'm not sure.  Being able to bring your companion back to life means that you don't lose anything in the long run, but you're still choosing to let them be torn to pieces to save yourself--quite a hideously selfish decision (the NPC's gradual death as you go through each door must be exquisitely painful).  With the ability to bring the NPC back, it's a true test of selfishness, whereas without the ability to bring the NPC back, it's rather a test of the PC's ability to consider his/her long-term gain--would you rather lose a point of Dexterity, or lose Korgan's services?

All of which is really beside the point, as the death is as permanent as any death is, depending on the setting you're playing on.  But anyway.
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: