Author Topic: Fair Play for Evil Characters  (Read 3824 times)

Offline Wounded_Lion

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Fair Play for Evil Characters
« on: December 02, 2004, 12:23:43 PM »
I think that D&D and the IE games are unfairly biased against evil characters, and I am working on a mini-mod that will disable or tone down many of the features designed to spite or outright kill evil characters.

Does anyone know how BGII creates the large party of Amnish soldiers and Cowled Wizards that sentence your party to death when your reputation dips low enough?  I think that this feature is unfair in the extreme.  There are countless evil citizens within the city, many much more evil than your party, yet the guard can somehow track down and execute the player party in particular?  What the !@#$?  What about Neb, the child killer?  What about all the freakin' Shadow Thieves?

I thought that the feature would most likely be implemented via script...  but after browsing the game scripts I failed to see any script with an obvious name.  Any help would be appreciated.  I'd like to either remove the feature entirely or perhaps match the summoned party to the level of your own party (a fair-fight scenario).

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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2004, 12:31:38 PM »
Rather than simply disabling guards, I'd rather see more sensible guard intervention. If you've ever played DLTC (at least, I think it made it into the demo), there's a system whereby guard patrols around the city react to disturbances or threats, giving you a chance to get away from the scene of the crime, etc. If caught, you get dialogue instead of instant attack, so you can deny involvement, or whatever. On top of that, people don't turn hostile forever if they see you doing something bad.
Additionally, guards/cowled wizards should also intervene on your behalf. How come other people can cast in the street?
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Anyway, amntrap1-3 are the scripts you need to look at.

Offline jester

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2004, 04:36:19 PM »
I must say that I like the intervention/patrolling idea. Just attacking is unusual vene for heavily armed guards. They should inquire first like the guy in the Bridge district.
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Offline BigRob

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2004, 09:01:20 PM »
I recckon that your standard commoner in the street shouldn't turn hostile at all if they see you hose down some bystander with fire. Consider:


Peasant: "Wow, that guy was just chopped into pieces by that heavily armed band of adventurers who radiate evil like a nest of demons. I know! I'll have at them with my trusty dirk! Have at thee, villains!

CHARNAME: (Casually decapitates peasant) "Great. Now I've got to depopulate another district."


At best, they could casually saunter away, hoping not to be noticed. At worst, they can flee and summon the guards.
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Offline Neffra

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2004, 09:55:39 PM »
I think that D&D and the IE games are unfairly biased against evil characters, and I am working on a mini-mod that will disable or tone down many of the features designed to spite or outright kill evil characters.

Does anyone know how BGII creates the large party of Amnish soldiers and Cowled Wizards that sentence your party to death when your reputation dips low enough? I think that this feature is unfair in the extreme. There are countless evil citizens within the city, many much more evil than your party, yet the guard can somehow track down and execute the player party in particular? What the !@#$? What about Neb, the child killer? What about all the freakin' Shadow Thieves?

I thought that the feature would most likely be implemented via script... but after browsing the game scripts I failed to see any script with an obvious name. Any help would be appreciated. I'd like to either remove the feature entirely or perhaps match the summoned party to the level of your own party (a fair-fight scenario).

a Wounded Lion


The Shadow Thieves get away with a lot due to the fact that they have a huge presence in the city and its rumored that at least one of the Council of Six is a current or former ST. Their activities are overlooked basically by those in power.

The way I always looked at it though was this... You can be evil all you want, but its your actions as an evil individual that determine your reputation. Those actions are open and visible to those around you or your rep would simply not ever grow.  Rep is how the people around you perceive you. Many evil people can have a good rep via using people to cover their asses and keep their names and noses clean and never let deeds stick to them. Pays to have those evil henchmen underlings, doesn't it? These types tend to be rich and affluent within the nobility and the ruling bodies, if they're not in the ruling bodies themselves, that is.

Now, think of it from this perspective rather than "Evil is treated unfair." When you start the game, even evil, you start with a neutral rep, do you not? Its your actions within the game that maintain or lower (or raise) your rep. You can be evil in that you're a selfish bastard and out for yourself, yet not do anything that would substantially drop your rep persay. Evil doesn't always = mindless slaughter cuz you feel like it.  Barring magic divination of your alignment, only open evil deeds will let anyone know you're evil.

BUT, when your rep starts dropping in the game, that means you've been a very naughty boy or girl within your time in the game. You've done things that give you a preceeding bad rap with everyone, including the Athkatlan guard and CW's. You've been actively very bad and very evil. So, they're not just coming after you just because you're evil, they're coming after you because you finally got such a negative rep within the city and the people, that tales of your bad deeds hit official ears and basically, you've got a bounty on your head. Sure there are tons of evil people in Athkatla, probably many of them are in the CW's, but the bulk of these evil dudes are not likely out in the streets killing random citizens out in the open, etc. They're likely doing petty stuff that wouldn't draw much notice, if anything at all.

The game can only show a microcosm of life in the streets. It can't show the sheer multitude of people walking the streets, or shopping at vendors, etc. A party of 6 high powered people carrying shiney trinkets consisting of highly magical weapons and armor will stand out and make the common peons take notice of them, thus, nothing you do will ever truly be very secret unless all six of them are really darn stealthy 24/10. If you kill that dude that smarts off to you on the street corner, you'll be seen and talk of 'that group' will spread among the underbelly of the city. The more you do, the more talk spreads like wildfire and  you're going to catch the notice of those people that come to catch and execute you.

Frankly, to be honest with you, I'm almost surprised that the ST's don't come after you as well at some point, because your activities within the streets are in a way drawing negative attention to them and drawing the eyes of the guard more closely to their territory.

Anyway, the law coming after you makes perfect sense to me if you take into consideration that its your own actions that dictate that you're now labled 'Athkatla's Most Wanted.'

*edited for error*
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 10:42:18 PM by Neffra »

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2004, 10:15:55 PM »
http://www.pocketplane.net/virtue Le cough.

Also, it's Council of Six, not Amnian Nine, and as far as I know, there are only seven days a week, not ten. ;)
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Offline Arkenor

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2004, 10:28:15 PM »
Not in the Realms. All months last 3 tendays or rides. The word "week" shouldn't even be used really.

Offline Neffra

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2004, 10:41:35 PM »
Right, Council of Six. Noted and edited. But there's still 10 days in a Faerunian 'week'. ;)

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2004, 11:54:01 PM »
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard, but I'll take your word for it.
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Offline jester

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2004, 01:42:10 AM »
I agree with BigRob with e peasant behaviour. Innocent bystander just try to get the hell out of there. Perhaps they should turn hostile or yellow i sight range, run away and then start to go backto their normal lifes. After all you cannot be the only one who kills people around here given all the folks which roam the streets. Like Neffra said the word of your group would spread quickly once you vanquished the slavers or the Unseein Eye. Every group worth their money in Amn would take note of the new kids on the block. :D
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Offline Zyraen

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2004, 08:31:13 AM »
Actually, I feel the evil party is not unfairly penalised by guards and such. I usually see such "offensive" experiences more as exercises in combat and to gain more XP. However, it is very unfair towards evil players, for the following reasons.

- Taking Evil Options in Quests rewards FAR LESS XP
- Taking Evil Options in Quests means Fewer Item Rewards, some of which are rather important Items
- Low Reputation makes store prices go up
- Little Quest Development for "Evil" Options (do evil action, and quest ends. do good action, continue, continue, continue...)
- Very few Evil NPCs (Korgan, Viconia, Edwin. That's ALL, for SOA - hardly close to being enough to make up a 6 man party)
- Low Reputation makes Quest-related Characters hostile on sight, forcing you to kill them, forcing you to forever be unable to partake of their Quests and Item Rewards!
- Civilian AI is so incredibly messed up... as already mentioned in this thread
- Reacting "Evilly" at times can't even allow you to get through the game! Like trying to kill Elhan, or just taking Simyaz's head off in the Illithid Dungeon etc...

I think these are the most glaring reasons ; if anything, the encounters in town should be tagged to the appropriate XP level of the evil party so they are not overwhelmed. And there should be more Knights, and more should come even after you murder all the knights in the Radiant Heart - I only encountered one party of 6 knights and that's it!

Takes the fun out of being evil by having to be nice first :P *sniffle* well at least you can always backstab them as they are Leaving after having dealt with you.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2004, 08:03:44 PM »
Ok if your reputation is low your a known criminal! thus you WILL AND SHOULD be attacked by guards. If your a known criminal shops should change you more. If your rep is high they charge you less.

The low-level villains who don't hide there evil get killed.

Finally D&D was meant to be a game of Heroes. Being a hero is a reaction response. You see someone in trouble you something about it. Being evil however is not. Evil requires allot more planing and thought. A computer game just can't have the complexity of being the mad guy very well. Its ten times as much work design a story where your evil then when your good.
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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2004, 07:20:57 PM »
I have many thoughts to share...  To clarify matters, I will post each thought seperately (some tonight, others soon).

First, and foremost:  Evil characters SHOULD NOT be charged a higher price in shops.  If I, Deleon, a Death Knight, Scourge of the Weak, Scion of Set, Knight of the Spider, walk into a shop and wish to purchase something for a fair price, what kind of idiot shop keeper would attempt to charge me twice what the item is worth???  Shopkeepers should FEAR evil characters and thus give them similiar discounts to those received by good characters for respect.  Neutral characters should pay the most for any given item.  One of the adjustments that I have made to my game is to change the shop behavior 2DA so that lower, evil reputation levels gain the same discounts as higher, good reputation levels.

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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2004, 07:34:42 PM »
The way I always looked at it though was this... You can be evil all you want, but its your actions as an evil individual that determine your reputation. Those actions are open and visible to those around you or your rep would simply not ever grow.  Rep is how the people around you perceive you...

...When you start the game, even evil, you start with a neutral rep, do you not? Its your actions within the game that maintain or lower (or raise) your rep. You can be evil in that you're a selfish bastard and out for yourself, yet not do anything that would substantially drop your rep persay. Evil doesn't always = mindless slaughter cuz you feel like it.  Barring magic divination of your alignment, only open evil deeds will let anyone know you're evil...

*To clarify, I speak below of the IE games, not pen-and-paper D&D*

Yes, I understand the gist of what you're saying.  But I question:  Why do deeds with no witnesses cause drops in reputation, then?  At night, after sneaking into someone's house, I can kill them silently, and my reputation will drop like a six ton weight thrown off the Empire State Building.  I can do very bad things in the middle of the wood, with only deer and bird for witness, and my reputation sinks faster than the Titanic.  What gives?

 I *don't* generally commit mindless evil, either.  I kill people who insult or threaten me.  I don't give up anything to anyone, which gets me into fights.  I steal what I need.  Not exactly Osama Bin Laden, here, yet the guard acts like I'm Hitler and Stalin rolled into one.

On top of that, even if I want to I can't hire people to do my dirty work, either, because its not an option in the game.

Get the point?

 ;)  No hard feelings, by the way.  Just spouting my opinion, with all due respect to yours.

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Offline Wounded_Lion

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2004, 07:46:05 PM »
I agree with your post, Zyraen.  Aside from my prior comments, one reason that I dislike the guard's death sentence so much is that its very difficult / sometimes impossible to survive an encounter during the early parts of the game, and becomes easy prey during the later parts of the game (because its not tailored to party experience).  Good points all around.

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Offline Zyraen

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Re: Fair Play for Evil Characters
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2004, 11:24:48 AM »
Thanks ;) Btw, Wounded Lion, there are Mods dealing with 2 of the issues you have just raised.
Higher Prices for Low Reputation is in the Ease of Use Mod, I believe, available from WeiDU site (btw it's a compilation of many Mods, so I'm not sure where it originally came from)
There is another Mod called Virtue that deals with the Reputation drop for things that pple do not witness. Or so I gather.
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