Author Topic: I'm a skeptic, so sue me  (Read 13026 times)

Guest-ish

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I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« on: November 19, 2004, 08:49:11 PM »
Making Saerk's daughter a bard doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.  Honestly, I really, REALLY can't image a strong-willed young woman stammering, "F-Father?  I-I heard a noise?" and then screaming when this loon rushes at her and runs her through.  Wouldn't a disciplined, headstrong bard--or follower of Sune, for that matter--who, if she had a dexterity of 17, at least try to jump out of the way, instead of just standing there like some poor helpless victim? :-\

Not to say there's anything wrong with the mod--but I think this character's bio would be a lot better--and make a lot more sense--if she was NOT Saerk's daughter.

Offline Bookwyrme

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2004, 08:51:57 PM »
It's called taking lemons and making lemonade.

I'm looking forward to this mod :)
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Offline jester

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2004, 09:31:55 PM »
I can smell an all bard party in the distance, because I forgot her class (/me dimwit) earlier. my senses are keener in that respect now. Mind you Blades and Skalds are fighters, the rest is a walking jukebox that can carry loot. (no, Korgan made me type this.) ;)
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Offline Bons

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2004, 09:44:14 PM »
Not to say there's anything wrong with the mod--but I think this character's bio would be a lot better--and make a lot more sense--if she was NOT Saerk's daughter.

The reason why I started developing Surayah was because she IS Saerk's daughter, and because I found her chirped, "F-Father?  I-I heard a noise?" completely unsatisfying. I wanted to know more about her as a victim, and, make no mistake, Surayah is a victim. My goal is to give her more substance in the game situation in which she IS a victim. As Bookwyrme said, I am making lemonade.

In other words, if Surayah wasn't Saerk's daughter, I'd have no interest in making this mod.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2004, 05:54:10 AM »
Does the stammering line get changed, then?

Offline jester

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2004, 08:44:21 AM »
This time she says something along the line of' try aiming at me for a change you wimp'.
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Offline Bons

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2004, 09:14:53 AM »
Does the stammering line get changed, then?

My initial run at this, I forced Surayah to leave the party just after AnomenDecides, leaving her entrance and line (but revoiced with different delivery) and adding some acknowledgment that she's been in the party to the existing cutscene. If Surayah hadn't been in the party at this point, the scene would play the same as before except the line is revoiced.

Since my initial run, though, I've started to wonder about the issue of party management. Is it going to work smoothly basing Surayah's absence from the party of certain variables in Anomen's quest? Will she be gone for days? After AnomenIsKnight=1, is it still possible to go to Papa Saerk's house, bash some heads and cause other problems? In the light of these questions, I've begun to contemplate having Surayah leave the party upon entering the Farrahd Estate instead, which would call for her original entrance script to be skipped, and a party-leaving exchange to be added in its place.
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Guest-ish

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2004, 01:05:38 AM »
The reason why I started developing Surayah was because she IS Saerk's daughter, and because I found her chirped, "F-Father?  I-I heard a noise?" completely unsatisfying. I wanted to know more about her as a victim, and, make no mistake, Surayah is a victim. My goal is to give her more substance in the game situation in which she IS a victim. As Bookwyrme said, I am making lemonade.

You're not taking lemons, you're taking oranges, pulling lemons out of your pocket, and THEN making lemonade.  I'm just saying that, even though you have a really interesting mod, you're not sticking to Surayah's character.  Maybe I'm just too canon-loving for my own good, but better a fan-character turned original than a fan-character who never really was.

...

(Does that make sense to anyone, or am I just babbling?)

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2004, 02:23:49 AM »

 you begin with

, you're taking oranges, pulling lemons out of your pocket, and THEN making lemonade. 

 and end with
 
Quote
or am I just babbling?)

   :)

Quote
, you're not sticking to Surayah's character.

  from where i'm standing, she is actually sticking character to Surayah.  there are plot-irrelevant beggars with more character than Surayah's 'base'.

Quote
better a fan-character turned original than a fan-character who never really was.

  to say nothing of a [.cre with significant repercussions to a joined-npc's career/mental health/usefulness to the party] turned [joinable with depth on multiple levels] ??
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Eral

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2004, 04:06:24 AM »
Maybe Saerk makes Surayah nervous. Umm, it's a mod. The point is to do something interesting and unexpected. You appear to be telling us we can't have Surayah.
Yes we can. Go away.

Don't you listen to him(?) Bons. Off you go and record some more songs for Surayah to sing. Lots of them, please.

I would like to take this opportunity to say that I am a bit tired of "Guests" popping in and mouthing off. Is this the same Guest who didn't care for music with lyrics? (Classicist!) Whilst I rejoice in the democracy that allows them freedom of speech, I am beginning to yearn for the days when we would meet at dawn, your choice of weapons. Failing that, I would settle for the days of Sr Francis and her stick. They'd be watching their mouths then.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 04:32:51 AM by Eral »
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2004, 09:03:33 AM »
I think he's being a bit more civil than the music dude.  But actually, I too would ask the same thing as Sim.  With so little to go on as to what her character really is like, it'd be a shame if that got changed.  That basically would mean that Surayah's an entirely new character, and a lot like the Darth Vader/Anakin thing, the old Surayah would have ceased to exist.




Except I don't expect New Surayah would want to rule the galaxy with her children.
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Offline Bons

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2004, 10:13:17 AM »
Guest posters can ask their questions and have their opinions, too.  :)  It's not a bad thing.

I think I did point out already how I felt about this issue of Surayah being Saerk's daughter, but to repeat, it is really non-negotiable for me. I have no intention of purging my plans of that angle, because it would also end my interest in working on the project.

But actually, I too would ask the same thing as Sim.  With so little to go on as to what her character really is like, it'd be a shame if that got changed.

I already answered that one, as well. I have to wonder, though, am I allowed to revoice Surayah's sound so it matches the NPC soundset?
Newt had always suspected that people who regularly used the word "community" were using it in a very specific sense that excluded him and everyone he knew.

             --Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, "Good Omens"

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2004, 10:51:18 AM »
But actually, I too would ask the same thing as Sim. With so little to go on as to what her character really is like, it'd be a shame if that got changed.

I already answered that one, as well. I have to wonder, though, am I allowed to revoice Surayah's sound so it matches the NPC soundset?

Heh, that's sort of the thing.  Of course I'd want the voice to match the rest of the sounds, but you mention new delivery, so I really wasn't sure what that meant.  I'm thinking "we'll wait and see" is the best answer I could possibly get, so that's what I'll do. :)
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Offline Bons

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2004, 01:31:02 PM »
When I mentioned delivery, I'm hedging that the Surayah voicing is going to be accented. That could affect the "OMG! You didn't say it the same!" factor.  :)
Newt had always suspected that people who regularly used the word "community" were using it in a very specific sense that excluded him and everyone he knew.

             --Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, "Good Omens"

Offline neriana

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2004, 03:58:41 PM »
I've never killed Saerk, so never seen Surayah in-game. What exactly does she say, just that one line?
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Offline Bookwyrme

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2004, 04:02:28 PM »
I've never killed Saerk, so never seen Surayah in-game. What exactly does she say, just that one line?

Just that one line.

She's also never mentioned before that, and only once afterwards (as dead), so it's hard to see how an "established character" is being changed beyond recognition.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 04:04:37 PM by Bookwyrme »
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Offline Bons

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2004, 05:17:01 PM »
To be fair, it's more than the one voiced line. Surayah has two more unvoiced ones if you count her scream, plus the entire cutscene where she dies should be taken into consideration since it's the sum of her existing background. That being the case, I've reproduced it here, so...


SPOILERS FOLLOW IF YOU'VE NEVER LET ANOMEN TAKE JUSTICE INTO HIS OWN HANDS.


//The party has to fight guards to reach the point where Saerk and Yusef Farrahd wait on the second floor of the estate.

SAERK: ~What is the meaning of all this commotion?!  What is going on, here?!~

//Surayah enters.

SURAYAH: ~F-father?  I heard some noise...?~

ANOMEN: ~I see at last the serpent slithers out of hiding to reveal himself!  Come, then, fiend and prepare to dealt righteous vengeance!~

SAERK: ~What is this?  Ah...I see that old lizard Cor has finally sent his whelp to deal with me, eh?~

ANOMEN: ~You will not speak my father's name!~

YUSEF: ~This is Anomen?  Oh, can I kill him, father?  Please?~

SAERK: ~Of course you can, Yusef.  I will take whatever opportunity I can to strike at Cor's heart, and this one has all but fallen into our laps.~

ANOMEN: ~So you admit it!  You admit to your part in Moira's murder!~

SAERK: ~I admit to nothing!  I have already cut out your father's heart and soul by stealing every last piece of business he has!  I have ruined him and beat him down like the mukrah dog that he is!~
=
~And here you give me the opportunity to strike at him again!  His son...thundering into my home... it would only be right to defend ourselves, no?~

ANOMEN: ~Calimshite demon!  I know that you murdered my poor, innocent sister!  I will see you dead and rotting for that deed, I swear!~

SAERK: ~Ah, yes, we all know the worth of the vow of a Delryn.  I hope the girl rots in her grave, boy.   It is all you and your family deserve!~

ANOMEN: ~You spit upon her memory?!  Very well, demon...I shall teach you the pain of losing one so dear!~

SURAYAH: ~Father!  Help me!~

YUSEF: ~Surayah!~

SAERK: ~No!  Stop!  V-very well, Delryn...you have made your point!  I...I beg you not to harm this innocent flower of my house!~

ANOMEN: ~And did Moira beg for her life before it was taken?  Was she any less innocent than this girl?  Was she, too, part of your quarrel with my father?  I think not!~
=
~You shall pay for that crime with equal measure!~

SURAYAH: ~Aiiyeee!!~

*Anomen kills Surayah*

YUSEF: ~Nooo!!  You vile dog!  I shall cut out your black heart for this!~

//The following is said if Aerie, Jaheira, Minsc, or Keldorn is in the party, otherwise we skip ahead to the next Saerk line.
AERIE: ~Anomen!  What have you done?!  That girl... she is not responsible for what her father does!  She is an innocent!!~
MINSC: ~No!  Minsc did not come here to kill young girls!  You cannot tell us that the young girl was anything but innocent!  This is not right!~
JAHEIRA: ~By... by the gods!  You foolish man!  Can you say that this young woman was a murderer, as well?!  You have murdered an innocent!~
KELDORN: ~Anomen, no!  What have you done?!  You... you have slaughtered an innocent!  By Torm, you cannot see the justice in *this*!~
ANOMEN: ~She is no innocent, I tell you.  None of this family is.  Say what you will, not even the Order will tell me differently!  All of these dogs will die!~

SAERK: ~My daughter!  You wish war between us, whelp?  Very well!  GUARDS!!~
// Fighting ensues. Saerk can be killed.
// But, just before Yusef is killed...

YUSEF: ~I... (gasp!)  I shall get you for this!  One day, I swear I shall!~

// Yusef escapes via dryad teleport.

// Then, after the battle is done...

ANOMEN: ~There.  It is done.  I want to hear no reprisements, either.  It was my decision and mine alone.  Let us return to my father and tell him what has occurred.~

Newt had always suspected that people who regularly used the word "community" were using it in a very specific sense that excluded him and everyone he knew.

             --Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, "Good Omens"

Offline neriana

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2004, 06:20:04 PM »
Oh looky, more reason for me to hate Anomen. Joy  ;D

I don't see the problem. It's not like Bons is making Surayah a fierce barbarian warrior or something.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2004, 07:17:20 PM »
Right, but the misconception that Guestish had was that Surayah was being remade as a confident, headstrong bard (or whatever the exact words).  I imagine one can be a bard without being headstrong and confident.  Or... well, I don't know.  That's sort of what is supposed to be cleared up here.  So confused.
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Offline Bons

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2004, 07:39:06 PM »
I'm not sure where the notion of headstrong and confident came from. They aren't words I ever used in the bio, etc. I did describe Surayah as passionate and spoiled; maybe those words are being interpreted in a different manner than I intended when using them as character traits.
Newt had always suspected that people who regularly used the word "community" were using it in a very specific sense that excluded him and everyone he knew.

             --Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, "Good Omens"

Offline cliffette

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2004, 10:20:02 PM »
Not entirely sure where 'headstrong' comes in, but from the wordplay and jokes in her banters, I'd say she's confident.

But Surayah's dialogue gives us so little to go on that almost anything will do for her character. Except warlike (or else she would have gone for Anomen's throat straight-up.).

Offline neriana

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2004, 11:00:58 PM »
She's good with words, but does that mean she's confident in herself and her actions? Not necessarily. Of course, right now Bons is the only one who really knows.
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Guest-ish

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2004, 12:41:26 AM »
I'm not sure where the notion of headstrong and confident came from. They aren't words I ever used in the bio, etc. I did describe Surayah as passionate and spoiled; maybe those words are being interpreted in a different manner than I intended when using them as character traits.

All right, saying she's "headstrong and disciplined" (I never said confident; though, admittedly, I probably would've) as well as "strong-willed" was a poor choice of words... but even so, by what was said in her bio, she is disciplined in that she taught herself to have a lot of self-control.  As for headstrong and strong-willed, I suppose I misinterpreted her bio: it sounds like she has unique beliefs for someone of her class and upbringing, and usually (note the word usage) people like that have to be headstrong to hold onto their ideals in the face of adversity.  So I guess "headstrong" was an assumption, sorry about that. :P

As for the rest, (1) no, I'm not this guest who has a problem with music--frankly, I'm in a choir myself, and love music with lyrics, (2) I am no "he", I am female, thank you very much, (3) now, that you mention it, Eral, I suppose Surayah's father or her brother OR the pack of blood-covered adventurers could make anyone stammer, :P  and (4) on reflection, you really can do just about with Surayah, since she really is only than a victim in the game.  Still, what she does say seems rather pathetic for the Surayah I read about in the bio.  Then again, I suppose I haven't really seen enough of Surayah to say whether or not she would or would not stammer out "F-Father?  I heard some noise?" in those... unique circumstances.

Offline neriana

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2004, 01:00:13 AM »
First, how would you react to a bunch of people armed to the teeth breaking into your house, and one of them accusing your father with murder then threatening your life? I'd run away as fast as possible, if I had the time, but Surayah does not. She's surprised her father is being accused of killing someone, then -- she's dead, pretty much. She looks neither weak nor cowardly to me there. As much as I can tell anything from those two lines, it looks like her father hasn't kept her up to date on what's happening in his business, she looks up to her father, and she's not a warrior. She could be the most confident person in Athkatla, but this is a circumstance she wasn't prepared for, unsurprisingly. Second, Surayah is far from the only victim in the game. Really far.
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Offline Murdane

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Re: I'm a skeptic, so sue me
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2004, 01:07:21 PM »
I really have to agree with Neriana and Bookwyrme and the others that say there is no inconsistancy here.  Being confident or even being powerful doesn't mean you can never be afraid; I think it's a mistake to make so many assumptions about what Surayah can or cannot be by means of her stammering lines.

 

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