Author Topic: Saladrex  (Read 16087 times)

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2004, 03:54:03 AM »
I should really just make a text file and save this passage in it so I don't have to constantly look it up:

The following quote is from the 2nd edition Dragon source book, the Draconomicron. (TSR 1501)
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Rogues

As with humans, demihumans, and humanoids, the alignment of dragons reflects not instinctive behavior but an intelligent choice about how the creatures respond to the world. Certainly, dragons raised in a society with a strong alignment are probably going to share that alignment, but there's no law of nature that prevents a dragon from changing its alignment. (In fact, the consequences of changing alignment are considerably less for a dragon than they are for a human or demihuman. Dragons progress in power depending on their age, so they suffer no direct ill effects from a voluntary alignment change.)

Dragons that voluntarily change their alignments are referred to as "rogues," and they're very rare indeed. Rogues have decided for reasons of their own that they don't go along with the world-view common to dragons of their species.

These reasons can vary widely. A gold dragon might become disillusioned after seeing evil continuing to flourish no matter what efforts are made to crush it. The gold grows tired of what it sees as "beating its head against a mountain," and decides to leave the futile efforts to younger dragons. It has its own life to live, and wants to do it on its terms. This rogue would probably have shifted its alignment to Neutral Good or even Chaotic Good.

In contrast, a copper dragon might become steadily more obsessed with collecting wealth, while growing less and less concerned with the means by which it is attained. The normally Chaotic Good dragon might shift to Chaotic Neutral or even Chaotic Evil. Rogue chromatic dragons are even rarer than rogue metallic dragons, but they do occur. A young red dragon might be sickened by the suffering that its older relatives are inflicting on innocent victims. After much soul-searching, it might flee to an isolated area where it can live on its own terms (Chaotic Neutral alignment), or it might try to work to prevent or reverse damage caused by others of its kind (Chaotic, Neutral or even Lawful Good, depending on how it went about this task).

The response to a dragon that turns rogue varies depending on the species involved. Bronzes and golds almost certainly sentence the rogue to official proscription. Silvers might tolerate the rogue as long as it didnít slip over the line into evil behavior. Coppers and brasses generally shun a rogue. If the behavior of a rogue metallic dragon becomes actively evil, other members of his species might be forced to consider more serious measures.

Myths record only one such incident, when a flight of gold dragons hunted down and slew one of their own kind who was engaging in a wild orgy of destruction across the Dalelands. (Most naturalists are convinced that the rogue in this case was actually incurably insane, since most sane rogues would never consider such a wild swing in alignment.)

In the case of Chaotic Evil dragons becoming neutral or good, their kin respond to them in exactly the same way they would to any other dragon of that alignment: hatred and attack if the rogue intrudes on their territory, general indifference otherwise.  Lawful Evil dragons might consider retribution against the rogue, but only if the rogue posed some kind of danger to them or if they saw some potential gain in it.


So actually, if Saladrax is indeed a rogue red Dragon, then the safest and most secure way he could continue living with minor disruptions is in Watcher's Keep.  If he is not bored there, and happy to live there, then the defences of the place would definately reduce the disturbances and encounters with other dragons who may take exception to his changed alignment and demenor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2004, 03:57:32 AM by Caedwyr »
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2004, 05:58:20 AM »
 
  i just wonder how he stays fed there.  if he could come and go at will, you'd think the keep would become known as a dragon's lair.  and the watchers would either be heavily dug-in or ridiculously powerful, or frequently decimated.
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2004, 08:03:38 AM »
I'd tend to agree with RRB. :) Assuming Saladrex is not trapped in WK, I would say that him being there (as opposed to a mountain lair from which he can raid the countryside) is a piece of evidence increasing the odds he is not, in fact, necessarily an Evil creature.

I don't think he is mentioned by others in the region, suggesting he keeps to himself.

Plus, in the dialogue he does not outright try and kill you - outright hostility is the way most other Red Dragons behave (if you read various FR novels), and he certainly doesn't match Firkraag's behaviour from what we know of him. :)

So I would support a Virtue hit for killing Saladrex. Unless, perhaps, the player is a Cavalier who has sworn to kill chromatic Dragons. However if he/she is meant to swear to kill Evil dragons (not quite synonyms) then there should be a Virtue hit unless the Cavalier can show the dragon to be Evil.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2004, 03:51:21 PM »
but Saladrax IS NOT A ROUGE DRAGON. he is evil. Its a simple bit of magic to find that out.

Evil doesn't mean runing though the streets seting kids and small animals on fire. Quite a few mass murderers were nice guys aside from the fact they killed people.

I'd guess Saladrax eats the mind flayers and Githyanki the mad mage summons.

The rare and almost unique good chromatic dragon would not behave in the manor that Saladrax does. If he was good I'd expect him to behave more like Adalon the silver dragon from the underdark.



« Last Edit: December 31, 2004, 04:23:13 PM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2004, 05:06:11 PM »
but Saladrax IS NOT A ROUGE DRAGON. he is evil. Its a simple bit of magic to find that out.
yup.  better kill de'Arnise Keep's major domo while you're at it.

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Evil doesn't mean runing though the streets seting kids and small animals on fire. Quite a few mass murderers were nice guys aside from the fact they killed people.
  and?  a dragon[/b] being condescending and haughty to a small group of humanoids (about whom he admittedly doesn't know much, if he thinks they're absolutely no match for him) is not by definition evil, certainly not actively so.  saladrex is not a nice guy, despite the fact that he may eat a lot of githyanki and/or illithids that might otherwise give Our Party a lot more trouble.  but since this is basically about paladins taking a hit for making a morally unprovoked attacked on a nonhostile, not-clearly-or-obviously-actively-evil red dragon:  if saladrex has renounced evil (or just doesn't care about it at all), he's not obligated to tell you just because you're a paladin.  i don't think it's supposed to be obvious one way or the other.  but he's apparently not a threat to anything except githyanki and mind flayers (or captured mind flayers, i suppose, considering his location).  (and anybody else who's made it past that many levels of a dungeon as wiggy as WK, i seriously doubt qualifies as "innocents led to the slaughter".)
  i agree that virtue should consider allowing for the 'Cavalier Calling', but only if Oversight is not in use.
  personal extra tuppence = detect evil is a flimsy device that should at least have a more detailed description/effect.  "you know that this is or isn't their alignment group", in other words "this is how they can be expected to behave in a purely instinctive scenario" (if they test positive).  someone who registers as good or neutral with know alignment could still commit an evil act, but that would be a surprise, right?  the only real difference with detecting evil intent/tendency is that you can expect/wait for it to happen.  but with saladrex, it doesn't happen.  he's not even arrogant enough to be successfully taunted.  (this is where the spells taunt or blood/animal rage would have fun application.)

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I'd guess Saladrax eats the mind flayers and Githyanki the mad mage summons.
that's a lot of githyanki and mind flayers.
 i haven't read up on their ecology, but i have doubts that astral-heavy critters like gith are particularly substantial eatin'.
 someone should write a book on Who[m] Eats Who[m]?  what limited diets certain omnivores will settle for in lean times, and so on.
 actually, there's probably some kind of hibernation deal i'm forgetting about - gold dragons eat gems that tide them over for some time (if not exclusively - is it the older they get, caedwyr, or from birth?), i can't remember if reds can snack on their hoard or something...

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The rare and almost unique good chromatic dragon would not behave in the manor that Saladrax does. If he was good I'd expect him to behave more like Adalon the silver dragon from the underdark.
   
  would not.  okay, thank you, Arbiter.
  there has not been a single suggestion that saladrex is or even might be good.  Oversight makes him CN if i'm not mistaken.  which would be a completely reasonable decision, considering that saladrex doesn't behave like a typical red, apart from being arrogant/proud (which is pretty much #1 on the Things All Core Chromatics And Metallics Have In Common, or tied with Some Kind of Breath Weapon).  especially considering the extreme likelihood that the party is carrying a hefty load of valuable treasure.
  and adalon has become cynical - not at all typical for metallics, that i can recall - yet another candidate for roguehood.
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2004, 06:26:06 PM »
I think Saladrex behaves exactly like a red dragon. Just because he doesn't kill thing that walks in his door doesn't mean he's not a typical red dragon. You people are taking a slight diviation in behavior and turning a murderus wyrm into just a jerk.

Saladrex spells out his reasons for staying
"I have only been here a few years - an insignificant time for a dragon.  But I choose to remain for a number of reasons.  For one, I find the antics of Carston and the other lesser creatures on this level amusing."
Lets think about what he finds funny, he finds humor in these poor souls being summoned to the the room fighting, killing and being butchered.

Saladrex does NOTHING to show he is any different from another red dragon. In fact his little quote shows he's just like other evil dragons. He enjoys watching others suffer just like Firkaag.

What about Firkaag? when you walk into his lair he isn't out right hostile. He's willing to let take the child and leave.

At any rate. I'm tired of this fruitless argument. Nothing we can say will change each others minds. I'm of mind its ok in the world of D&D to hunt and kill evil dragons.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2004, 07:47:10 PM »
I think Saladrex behaves exactly like a red dragon. Just because he doesn't kill thing that walks in his door doesn't mean he's not a typical red dragon. You people are taking a slight diviation in behavior and turning a murderus wyrm into just a jerk.
  and your documentation of his murderousness is... where?
  CN creatures can have murderous streaks/periods.  even a true neutral, hypothetically.
  i'm not telling anybody he can't be evil.  i'm just not ruling out some possibilities, and i'm acknowledging the validity of reasonable considerations like Oversight.
 
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Saladrex spells out his reasons for staying
  easy for him to say, the designers don't have to worry about how he gets his food.  :P
  it's a frequent ecological oversight by most users-of-dragons-as-plot-devices.

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Saladrex does NOTHING to show he is any different from another red dragon. In fact his little quote shows he's just like other evil dragons. He enjoys watching others suffer just like Firkaag.
  sure, a metallic dragon able to assume human form might make the effort to acquire the hammer and put a stop to 'carston's antics'.  but why would they have set up shop in WK?  i think it's a smokescreen anyway.  everybody in that place is trapped, from where i'm sitting.

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What about Firkaag? when you walk into his lair he isn't out right hostile. He's willing to let take the child and leave.
  what he's done to the windspear hills/family is plenty of justification to go after him.  letting garren's child be 'rescued' is an act of boredom, not consideration.  (at least that's what he claims.  maybe he's starting to go soft!  ::))

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At any rate. I'm tired of this fruitless argument.
  yeah, i could use a nap too.  lots of drinkers arriving here shortly.
  anyway, there are easier ways to get the last word.  ;)

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Nothing we can say will change each others minds.
  well, if you fully backed up one of your handful of absolute exceptionless statements, i'd be glad to entertain the idea.
  you may even notice that i sometimes riff little offshoots from the ideas of my "opponents", to observe the spirit of discussion and contemplation, as opposed to pure argumentation.  or, you may not.
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2004, 08:34:18 PM »
A Dragon can eat just about any thing to fuel its body. Stone, Metal, Gems. Also a dragon’s digestive system is so efficient what ever goes in ain’t coming out the other end.
According to Draconomicon.


Why do I need documentation for saladrex's murderousness? he is chaotic evil red dragon. IF he had lived as long as he has with out behaving like a chaotic evil red dragon he wouldn't be chaotic evil anymore. Considering his power he must be a at least few hundred years old.
He's chaotic evil when you meet him. So how could he have spent his life being chaotic evil and not have done evil things?

Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2004, 09:31:56 PM »
Assuming Saladrex is not trapped in WK, I would say that him being there (as opposed to a mountain lair from which he can raid the countryside) is a piece of evidence increasing the odds he is not, in fact, necessarily an Evil creature.

But he is trapped. At least, since the PC can't enter or leave the Keep without the Vigil Wardstone, and Aesgareth is able to gate other creatures in but not himself out, I find to difficult to believe that a creature as large as a Dragon can pass with ease in & out of a magically warded dungeon that can hold even planewalkers like Aesgareth. True, says that "I choose to remain," but mentions no details to support the idea of his being able to leave, or even that he's attempted to.

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Plus, in the dialogue he does not outright try and kill you - outright hostility is the way most other Red Dragons behave.
True. Interestingly enough, he does not even show any interest in acquiring the amazing loot the party carries--a very un-Dragon-like attitude indeed. I believe Oversight changes his alignment from ?E to CN, and that seems to mesh well with his character, his red scales notwithstanding.
But I still want an option to have him speak to the party as an equal.

Like Firkraag, Saladrex views the antics and suffering of smaller beings amusing. Unlike Firkraag, however, Saladrex does not actually cause that suffering, unless you count his killing them for food.

Idle thought: There are Trolls on that level of the dungeon as well. Theoretically, Saladrex could bite off a limb or two without actually killing the Troll. Kinda sad for the Trolls, though, I think I'd prefer to be eaten all at once than have something amputated every day.

Offline Kish

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2004, 10:31:45 PM »
Saladrex can also shapeshift, as adult red dragons can.  He could turn himself into a mouse and need very little food each day.
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2005, 01:07:30 AM »
  i understand that he tested positive for you under a detect evil, maybe a know alignment as well (i'm assuming that's how you confirmed the chaotic part, not that the designers weren't lazy or anything), and that he
  i was only taking issue with the proclamation of the murderous wyrm, despite having nothing to go by other than the above and ordinary prejudice.  oh, and the stories of [predominantly CN, very trustworthy sources for paladins] githyanki, if you wanted to listen to them...

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 IF he had lived as long as he has with out behaving like a chaotic evil red dragon he wouldn't be chaotic evil anymore.
 absolutely.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2005, 08:11:44 AM »
What bothers me about the notion of adding a dialogue path to Saladrex that allows the party to convince him that they're on a par with him is that... well, is he going to be convinced? It doesn't seem to me, looking at the dialogue, that Saladrex is terribly likely to make such a concession any time soon.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2005, 05:21:40 PM »
 a supra-genius could be allowed to outriddle him or something.
 or someone who can cast dragon's breath...
 
 
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2005, 05:50:59 PM »
Being a Red Dragon, he'd probably be unaffected by that spell. ;)
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2005, 05:59:26 PM »
 oh come on!  to compete or impress or 'match', not to damage.   :P  or prot-firing yrself and having him breathe on you...
 
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Offline Murdane

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2005, 11:25:03 PM »
What bothers me about the notion of adding a dialogue path to Saladrex that allows the party to convince him that they're on a par with him is that... well, is he going to be convinced? It doesn't seem to me, looking at the dialogue, that Saladrex is terribly likely to make such a concession any time soon.

I agree.  Just about every type of dragon is arrogant to begin with, and red dragons are among the most arrogant of all.  I'm sure Saladrex would find the very idea of the PC convincing him of anything--or changing his mind about something--to be laughable in and of itself.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2005, 12:51:44 AM »
What bothers me about the notion of adding a dialogue path to Saladrex that allows the party to convince him that they're on a par with him is that... well, is he going to be convinced? It doesn't seem to me, looking at the dialogue, that Saladrex is terribly likely to make such a concession any time soon.
If it's about power, the party can tell of mighty deeds performed and foes vanquished (after checking certain Global variables and the presence of certain items, like Carsomyr), and perhaps an assesment of the party's overall EXP level.
If it's about bloodline, the PC can mention Bhaal. Even a Dragon would have to give that one pause.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2005, 03:32:09 AM »
ToB already establishes that dragons consider draconic heritage to be superior to divine heritage.
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Offline jester

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2005, 04:43:38 AM »
Given the fact that pesky mortal humans have ascended to godhood who can blame them? Also given the wide array of backgrounds for the various gods they would probably not considered a race. Therefore it boils down to individual power rather than heritage for the PC.

BTW the amount of dragon slaying in SoA alwas bothered me given the fact that they are supposedly epic creatures. Oh well.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2005, 03:57:04 AM »
ToB already establishes that dragons consider draconic heritage to be superior to divine heritage.
Okay, that's it. If Saladrex actually thinks that dragons outrank gods, he needs to be served his ass on a platter (Required: One very very large platter) just for being so colossally stupid. No matter how you look at it, it's honorable: Call it a mercy killing of the mentally retarded if you wish, or a lesson to the remaining draconic populace to hold their collective tongue and maybe cultivate some manners.

Seriously, if Saladrex sees a band of six adventurers decked out in Red, Shadow, Blue, & White Dragon Scale, Dragonslayer, Dragon's Bane, Dragon Helm, Firetooth, Boneblade, Dragon Scale Shield, Belt of Inertial Barrier, and Carsomyr, you'd think he would get the friggin' message.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2005, 04:59:45 AM »
All dragons apparently think that way, so it would appear you're advocating genocide.  Not exactly the proper attitude for a paladin...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2005, 05:28:19 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2005, 05:26:20 AM »
Quote
Call it a mercy killing of the mentally retarded if you wish, or a lesson to the remaining draconic populace to hold their collective tongue and maybe cultivate some manners.


If this is the type of ethics and moral your paladins follow, I'm kinda worried about what you'd consider evil.  :P


What I've noticed in the recent set of posts, is that people aren't really arguing that killing Saladrex shouldn't have a virtue hit, they just want to beat him at a pissing contest.....
« Last Edit: January 03, 2005, 05:28:23 AM by Caedwyr »
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Offline jester

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2005, 06:19:03 AM »
I think Six that what you would describe is the behaviour of any common thug with a bloated ego. The fact that he is not intimidated by your fancy gear or your half-breed status doesn't entitle you to do anything. If you want to kill him out of spite that is ok, but a paladin is meant to be a humble person and would not answer to mere words by resorting to violence. I think the term 'mercy killing' is totally unknown for a paladin at least in your use of the word. 'Mercy killing of the mentally retarded'? Wow!
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2005, 06:37:15 AM »
Call it a mercy killing of the mentally retarded if you wish, or a lesson to the remaining draconic populace to hold their collective tongue and maybe cultivate some manners.
This is what is called 'tongue in cheek.' Not to be taken literally, but going a bit over the top to attain humor by exaggeration. Hence my beginning the next paragraph with the word 'Seriously.'

Offline Murdane

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2005, 04:46:26 PM »
Remember, though, that the PC still had to work for his power, just like any other non-godly character.  In some respects, being a Bhaalspawn doesn't make you much different from any other mortal (you still are mortal), and when all else is equal, dragons still think of the core races as "little people".  Even good dragons are going to look down on humanoids as beings who need their protection and wisdom (in other words, they are condescending).

 

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