Author Topic: Saladrex  (Read 16085 times)

Offline JW

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Saladrex
« on: October 10, 2004, 03:06:31 PM »
When I'm on the fourth level of Watcher's Keep, one of the inhabitants is a Red Dragon called Saladrex. After some banter with him, I let the wyrm know that he's going to fall there and now. But to my surprise when I defeat the beast, I get a standard -2 virtue loss.

I have a question here.

I thought red dragons were inherently evil beings, if that is the case why I lose virtue by killing Saladrex?
Perhaps he's not coded as Red Dragon by the game? (his skin colour is red tho)
Maybe I am wrong and Red Dragons are not evil?
Last but not the least, might this be a... bug?

I'd appreciatte some input on the subject. 

Offline Kish

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2004, 03:11:07 PM »
Only extraplanar creatures have truly fixed alignment, and as anyone who's played Planescape: Torment knows, not all of them even.  As far as attacking Saladrex for being a red dragon goes--you're a child of Bhaal, the last person who should try to justify killing other intelligent beings with "their kind are inherently evil."  You attacked a friendly, intelligent creature for its skin color--of course you lost Virtue.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 04:01:56 PM by Kish »
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Offline JW

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2004, 04:25:03 PM »
Saying that I only attacked him for his skin colour is a bit presumptuous, really.
I talked with him, evaluated the situation, and advised him about my intentions towards him. Hardly just "for his skin colour", since I don't have an eternity to spend in that dungeon, I'd say that I gave him plenty of time to prove any trait of goodness.

I will not discuss with you about Toril's lore, instead I will try to learn as much as possible since my knowledge is rather limited. However I am in position to discuss my party's true intentions. I judged the dragon based on my knowledge about their race and interaction with this vain creature; I considered him a menace to all what is right, and defeated the beast in the most honourable way possible, along with the creatures that dwelled the dungeon, Gith's and Anti-Paladins.

If I gave you the impression that I judged the Dragon purely based on racist arguments, I must have explained myself wrong somewhere. Besides, I did not come here to be judged, but to be informed... altho it is fair that you considered appropiate a reflexion about my purposes, even a wrong one, since this is a Virtue mod after all.

Explained this, I reiterate my question: do you consider then the Red Dragon race not evil? My limited knowledge says that these creatures are evil since the moment of their creation, but I might be wrong.

On a side note, do you consider Bhaal children Evil per nature, therefore being the PC an anomaly in realms?

EDIT: In fact, by the game this creature is considered Chaotic Neutral. Whether it is possible or not, I still consider this topic worth of a Virtue discussion, at the very least to shed light upon the matter and to extend my lore about dragons for possible future encounters. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 04:35:01 PM by JW »

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2004, 04:43:07 PM »
On a side note, do you consider Bhaal children Evil per nature, therefore being the PC an anomaly in realms?
Balthazar and Viekang are both non-evil, as presumably are a fair bulk of those herded into Saradush. The Chinchilla is also coded as good (*ducks*). So yes, we have fair evidence that children of Bhaal aren't entirely evil. There are also the non-evil Bhaalpowers you can pick up in BG1, although I'd be loathe to take them as distinct story evidence. However, I think it's fair to envisage that the tendency of Bhaalspawn is towards evil, given that you, like, turn into the slayer randomly and stuff as the essence starts to get the better of you.

Offline JW

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2004, 05:08:29 PM »
Indeed, in the game Balthazar is Lawful Good and Viekang Chaotic Neutral, so in some way this excludes the possibility of all Bhaalspawns being evil by born, yet what you say about the Taint and turning into the slayer leaves a mist over the main character true nature.

I am roleplaying certainly a good character, and from this point of view I have to assume many things regarding others along the journey to the Throne, however as Kish suggested my motives are as questionable perhaps as the Red Dragon ones. In my path I have met numerous parties that assumed my evil nature as a fact after knowing about my heritage... fact that I always considered erroneous.

Maybe it's a bit arrogant to presume of knowing anyone's interior motives and therefore aligment just based on the heritage, thing that my main char, hence myself, have done with this dragon. Thing that I considered right because *I* did it towards other. That's an interesting way of roleplaying without knowing it, but I guess it is inevitable to give shape of our own personality over our characters. It's also interesting how Virtue, as mod, makes us realize of our actions more deeply, being aware of our behaviour beyond the obvious.

I tried to get more insight about Dragons and their classes, but the best sources are, as always, for sale and not free for download. I'd appreciate it if someone could write more about Dragons at this respect.   

EDIT: by the way, I realize this is a game, just incase... I still like and have interest in the subject.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 05:13:21 PM by JW »

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2004, 05:53:02 PM »
I can dig up the exact quote if you wish, but in one 2nd edition manual, the Draconomicon, it states that rogue dragons (dragons not following their normal racial alignments) are actually somewhat more common than other alignment restricted species.  This is apparently due to their extremely long life spans and extremely high levels of intelligence, which lead them to question their own beliefs and to critically examine traditions and how they want to live.
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Offline jester

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2004, 06:42:36 PM »
I never had to kill Saladrex. What brought you to the conclusion you had to? Just curious.
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Offline JW

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2004, 07:17:54 PM »
Quote
I can dig up the exact quote if you wish, but in one 2nd edition manual, the Draconomicon, it states that rogue dragons (dragons not following their normal racial alignments) are actually somewhat more common than other alignment restricted species.  This is apparently due to their extremely long life spans and extremely high levels of intelligence, which lead them to question their own beliefs and to critically examine traditions and how they want to live.

There is no need, I trust your word. Actually it would fit with the Chaotic Neutral Dragon there. Perhaps that defines an evil side on my character, or maybe not... It's interesting to know more about Dragons anyway.

Quote
I never had to kill Saladrex. What brought you to the conclusion you had to? Just curious.

Good question. After all this self-reasoning I was starting to ask myself the same.

If I had to re-evaluate my actions, I think it was his lack of morality. This creature seemed more concerned about his ego rather than the place in which he was and the creatures whom he was dealing, Githyanki. Two rooms beyond his lair a madman was summoning creatures of all kinds to entertain himself; a little further an old apprentice of the madman was being tortured by the Illithids for information that the Dragon knew, how to break the glass.. yet he did nothing but to look at himself in vanity. I considered that maybe this dragon was not creating a danger by itself, but with his lack of interest or actions was endangering others and would continue to do so. Much unlike Adalon.

This combined with my belief that Red Dragons were necessarily evil placed me in the decision of fighting him, with honour, but showing no mercy.

Now I have learnt that Red Dragons can digress of their own race beliefs and traditions, perhaps knowing this beforehand would have led to a different result, yet this alone was not the reason. Although it might have been enought if truely the norm is the evilness of their Race.

Offline neriana

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2004, 07:43:40 PM »
Not dealing with other peoples' problems is not evil, it's just not-good. Not interfering with anyone outside your direct purview is Neutral. Vanity and egotism, even assuming Saladrex to have those traits, are not evil either. You're also assuming Saladrex has great control over the entire dungeon, which is not the case.
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Offline JW

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2004, 08:27:34 PM »
Yes, I understand the possibility of Saladrex not being evil for his actions, or lack of. However I determined him a threat for being in position of doing something about it, and not moving a finguer... in fact this while not being evil necessarily, is punished in many standards. I punished him.

Was killing him the best thing to do?
Perhaps not, but it fits in my sense of morality. I accept the virtue loss now.
Now had Saladrex control over the entire dungeon?
Of course not, but he knew more than enought about the current situation and how to fix it. Much more than any of the inhabitants of the dungeon with the exception of the madman's apprentice, yet he did nothing.

I'm not trying to justify my actions anymore, I accept that he fits inside the neutral alignment, but I still believe that I have followed a reasonable line of arguments to punish him. If my main character was a Paladin, I would despise this creature greatly for his lack of morality. I'm still unsure about the punishment someone like Keldorn would consider appropiate.

I rationalize that my character is good enought to notice the reprehensible component of Saladrex's behaviour, but seems that he (my character) is also evil enought to punish him severely for it.

I assumed that he was evil. His behaviour inside this dungeon played a great part on my judgement, and I was then sure of my reasons. However with the virtue loss I asked myself if there was a possibility for this Red Dragon to not be evil, that led me to question the punishment, since it could have been overexaggerated for a good being.

After knowiing that he can perfeclty be neutral, I still consider him deserving of a punishment for his BAD behaviour, moraly speaking. What could be the right punishment is still undetermined... to me it was killing him, ironically sharing the same fate of those that he did not care for.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2004, 08:33:55 PM by JW »

Offline jester

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2004, 09:18:00 PM »
It is perfectly ok to kill him, if you are so inclined in your game. When I play CN people I do kill everybody just because I can like the proverbial dog . :)

I always considered him to be more like Orrick the Grey in his tower in IWD2. Strong enough to fend everybody off, but certainly not strong enough to clean out WK. So if you are killing him for failure to render assistance I think that won't hold in court, but you are not a paladin anyway you said. I would even wager that a CG creature could be tempted not to do much in that situation.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2004, 07:11:09 AM »
Question: Wouldn't a Cavalier, who specializes in killing Demons and Dragons, attack and kill Saladrex?

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2004, 10:58:50 AM »
Question: Wouldn't an Assassin, who specializes in killing People, attack and kill everyone they meet?
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2004, 12:28:04 PM »

 i can't remember if my undead-hunter used detect evil on saladrex, but i also can't confirm that she attacked him.  does he register?

  good point with the cavalier, except they're not going to go after adalon, are they?  so back to the original question.
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Offline GetCool

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2004, 09:42:49 PM »
This is an interesting problem that requires a lot of thought.  I love these questions that deal with alignment and morality in the D&D universe(s), since they prompt complex considerations of seemingly simple problems.

I think the problem boils down to classification.  In BG2 (and other D&D) it is necessary for us to classify things; i.e. this person is chaotic neutral, this person is lawful good, this person has a Virtue of 18, etc.  This is necessary because of the game's nature; playing a game would be impossible if we didn't have quantitative references on which to base gameplay.  If we left everything wide open for free interpretation while playing D&D, there would be literally no gameplay model, as there would be no standard on which to base the progression of the game, and what we would have would be arguments and lengthy discussions on the true nature of a character's alignment.

Now, take that idea, and transport it from PnP into BG2, a PC game.  If PnP is an extremely simplified abstraction of real life, BG2 is an even further abstraction of PnP.  Take dialogue for example: you can't type in anything you want your character to say, you have to choose from a selection of possible responses.  This makes the importance of classification for the structure of the gameplay even more significant, and the lines between A and B even more defined.  When you encounter Saladrex and deal with him, you have two possible options: kill him or don't kill him.  You can't talk to him at length about his nature, and try to persuade him towards a given course of action.  And even if you actually can do this (I don't remember this dialogue exactly), you can't attempt a multitude of approaches, or drink an Intelligence potion and try to reason with him more on his level, or give him an allegory to ponder over, etc.  And if you want to punish him, you can't punish him in another way, you can't think of a creative way to teach him a lesson or to trick him, etc.  And even if he is entirely stubborn and would not give in to even the most intelligent, creative persuasion you attempt, you can't even try this in the first place and gather his obstinate attitude as further reason for punishing him.

The bottom line is you have an extremely limited number of options in dealing with him, and so if one is to create a Virtue mod, a one-dimensional scale on which to place the morality of your character, one needs to use best judgment in determining if option A is good, bad, or neutral with respect to option B.  Of course, sharp disagreement may arise from such judgments, but we all need to keep in mind the fact that we can only work with what we are given.  In such an abstract, categorical world, our judgments need to be equally abstract and categorical, and we need to adhere to the rules in a way that we may not in real life.

So, if you're tired of reading my rantings, I'll say what I'm getting at: the author of this mod needs to make a decision based on the given scenario, and while I can see truth in both sides of the argument, I can't criticise the author for making a judgment call when it falls into one of those gray areas, because in-game, there is no room for gray.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2004, 05:24:59 PM »
So, if you're tired of reading my rantings, I'll say what I'm getting at:

  and what if we're NOT tired of reading your rantings?
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Offline Joe

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2004, 03:23:04 AM »
Saying that I only attacked him for his skin colour is a bit presumptuous, really.
I talked with him, evaluated the situation, and advised him about my intentions towards him. Hardly just "for his skin colour", since I don't have an eternity to spend in that dungeon, I'd say that I gave him plenty of time to prove any trait of goodness.


He has not shown any hostility, why should he have to prove anything at all?

Offline Golden Lion 86

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2004, 10:56:14 PM »
Well, I am a dragon hater, and in reply to the first few post I will tell you outrigt that killing Saladrex is wrong. He is there guarding a hoard of his possessions, much like Humans and banks. Saladrex does register as evil, and he is evil, and unless you have the alignment fix, don't EVER go by game alignments, because your major Domo, and your Play supervisor, and High priestess Demin are all evil, and that Otyugh in Irenicus' Dungeon is NG.

Now, there is a clear line between evil and threat. Now good believes in either self defense, or preemptive strike against a threat. Killing something because it is evil is prejudice. Though one can assume that Saladrex might do evil stuff if he gets out, he is no immediate threat to you, unless he attacks, and no dragons in BG2, except the one in Suldanesselar, attack first.

SInce Saladrex does all he can to keep from fighting you, whether this be good intention, fear, or lack of concern for human affairs, the point is that YOU provoke the fight, so it is reasonable that YOU be held responsible.

Now, if you want to kill Saladrex, I approve, but it is not the GOOD thing to do, nor even the MORAL thing. Generally, you either kill him for his loot, which is theft (Murder 1 in Human terms, Armed Robbery and Homicide), or because he's a dragon, which is prejudice (A Hate Crime). The notes in parentheses are to illustrate why you lose the VIrtue, and what the equivalent is in modern Earth.

Another thing is the Shadow Dragon. This guy is also evil and he killed Mazzy's party (though I am sure Saladrex's hands are not clean either). But he serves a greater evil. If you notice, all but the most evil of dragons just leave people alone in exchange for privacy and gems. Some dragons eat gems. (I am feeling my hatred wearing off and I see some dragons just kill for food, like Lions. Tears form :'( ). Now, if he works for an active evil, but is a passive evil, there is no real reason to kill him. Killing him is more justified than Saladrex because this guy actually CAN hurt people from his location, but he has no interest in doing that. I know, at my office, a very nice young lady who works as the slave-assistant of my evil manager (Not really slave-assistant, but she does all but floss the harpy's teeth). I don't run off punching her in the face because she serves evil (Though she also serves my good manager. What a nice lady that one is :D)

Anywho, my reason for killing Dragons and Drow and Mariliths is prejudice. This prejudice stems from their arrogance clashing with my own. Dragons just think they are better than everyone else, and Drow are worse with their female supremascist views (It is my business to dine on the brains of amazon-idiots who think men do not deserve to live.)

BUt the point of this long discussion is that killig Saladrex is an evil act. This message brought to you by a hardcore Dragon-Hater. BioWare will confirm this.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2004, 12:59:30 AM »
Only extraplanar creatures have truly fixed alignment

Kish Dragons do have a fixed alignment. Red Dragons are born chaotic evil. Maybe its do to the fact dragons are born smarter then the average human. Ture dragons are born into there alignment.
All Chromatic Dragons are evil (with the exception of some cosmic event or alignment altering magic)
Red
Black
Greed
White
Blue

On the otherside we have metallic dragons
Gold
Bronze
Silver
Brass
Copper

The forgotten realms has other types of dragons
Deep (evil)
Shadow (very evil)
Fang (evil)
Brown (evil)
Song (good)
Chaos (always chaotic)


Now some cosmic event could cause a red dragon to be born or become good. So can alignment altering magic.

Now creatures like Drow are raised to be evil. If you take a drow infant and give him to kind loving parents the baby has the same chance to be good as one of his surface cousins. And an evil Drow has the chance to change (like Viconia) How ever to take an evil red dragon and make him good would require magic.

But Dragons are born intelligent. From the moment they hatch they can say "hello" and with some kinds of dragons, in more the one language.




Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline Murdane

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2004, 06:19:09 PM »
It comes down to whether or not it is OK to kill a being just because it's evil.  It is something that is certainly debatable--some believe that killing any creature that is born evil is perfectly fine (if not a good act in itself) but not everyone would agree with that logic.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2004, 08:44:13 PM »
well he has the Serpent Shaft the item used to upgrade the ravager.

Saladrex is an adult red dragon or older. There is no doubt he has done evil in his life, there is no doubt he will do evil in the future.

Killing a red dragon because it is evil is no different then killing a demon because it is evil.

Now I usually get around  the virtue loss by attacking the red dragon the moment he comes into view. To me there are two very reasonable responses when you walk into a room and see big fat dragon. The first is to run very fast. The second is to attack and get the opening move.

It would be nice if you could provoke him into a fight but you can't.


Saladrex does not have the capacity to be anything but evil. Drow, Orcs, Goblins, Duragar and the like can be raised good or can turn from evil to good.


The real moral question is this. You know this dragon if it lives will one day murder innocent people. Do you kill him now or wait until he has actually gone and pillaged a village.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline Kish

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2004, 10:38:58 PM »
well he has the Serpent Shaft the item used to upgrade the ravager.

Saladrex is an adult red dragon or older. There is no doubt he has done evil in his life, there is no doubt he will do evil in the future.

Killing a red dragon because it is evil is no different then killing a demon because it is evil.
Even if that were true--and you've offered nothing but assertion to support it, certainly no refutations to Caedwyr's reference to the Draconomicon--how on Toril could the PC know it?  Oh, the PC might know the first part, that Saladrex can be counted on to have good treasure, but if that's a key part of the reason for killing him, someone is acting evil there, all right, and it's not Saladrex.

Btw, do you know what green dragons breathe?
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Offline Murdane

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2004, 11:40:44 PM »
I'm not sure that dragons embody their alignment the same way fiends and celestials do.  If they don't, then killing a red dragon is *not* the same thing as killing a demon.  Besides, unlike just about any demon you meet, Saladrex seems to have no interest whatsoever in attacking you or harming you in any way.

PS: Green dragons breath chlorine gas, I believe (either that or acid, I forget which). :)

Offline Kish

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2004, 11:56:42 PM »
Green dragons breathing chlorine gas is what I read, but I was thinking perhaps the book which told Lord Kain that red dragons are all evil and don't have the capacity to be good said they breathed something else.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Saladrex
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2004, 01:36:28 AM »
Kish the book that told be that all red dragons are evil was every D&D monster manuel i've read from AD&D to 3.5. Along with books such as Draconomicon.
Also its perfectly reasonable that the PC would know that an evil red dragon has done evil and will do evil again.

Chromatic dragons are evil and are under there goddess Tiamat
Metallic Dragons are good and are under there god Bahamant.
Except for the occasional cosmic event that creates an exception.


Besides all this Saladrax is an evil red dragon, the PC can easly know that a full grown red dragon has murdered people to aquire its hord.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

 

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