Author Topic: Archived Posts - Ranger Kits  (Read 38896 times)

Offline icelus

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Archived Posts - Ranger Kits
« on: May 08, 2004, 11:16:56 AM »
So far, two ranger kits (Feralan and Justifier) have been mentioned as planned but not implemented (though it looks as if the Feralan kit made it far enough as to be included in kit.ids in place of the Archer kit...).

Anyone know of any other kits that were intended for inclusion, but never made it into the game?
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Offline icelus

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Justifier Kit
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2004, 11:20:52 AM »
First off, would anyone actually like to see this restored? I've never looked into creating kits, so I'd have to do a bit of homework. I, personally, would not mind having an extra ranger kit available, as it is personally one of my favorite classes overall.

If you would like to see it restored, do you have any ideas about what it would contain?

Here is the information (albeit abridged) from the 2nd Edition Ranger Handbook regarding the Justifier:

Description
Some expeditions are so demanding and some foes so dangerous that they require the attention of a highly trained specialist whose combat skills far exceed those of the typical ranger. Enter the Justifier, a master tactician whose military instincts, fighting versatility, and steely nerves places him in the first rank of elite warriors.

Though the Justifier specializes in neutralizing monsters, his skills qualify him for a wide range of adventures. he may organize guerilla forces and reconnaissance operations to gather information concerning enemy strength and logistics. He may execute strikes against monster lairs, rescue hostages, or eliminate tribal leaders or spell casters. For a determined Justifier, no job is too difficult, no enemy too formidable.

Requirements
Justifiers must have minimum scores of 14 in Strength and Dexterity. They must be human and of lawful good alignment.

Weapon Proficiencies
Bow (any), crossbow (any), dagger, sling, spear, sword (any)

Armor/Equipment
A Justifier has no special armor or equipment requirements. Though most Justifiers prefer light armor, such as leather, they can wear any type of armor and still hide in shadows and move silently.

Special Benefits
Weapon Specialization: Because of his extensive combat training, the Justifier must use some of his initial proficiency slots to take one weapon specialization. The weapon of specialization is taken from the list of recommended weapons.
Stealth: The Justifier receives a +5% bonus to his chance of hiding in natural surroundings and to his chance of moving silently.
Tactical Advantage: This ability allows the Justifier and his companions to gain a combat advantage by studying the enemy and exploiting their weaknesses. The Justifier must spend at least a full, uninterrupted turn secretly observing an enemy or group of enemies prior to making an attack. At the end of this period, the Justifier makes a Wisdom check. If successful, the Justifier has correctly assessed the enemy's weaknesses and is able to maximize the timing of an attack. The Justifier and his party automatically surprise the enemy and gain the initiative for the first round. A Justifier can attempt to gain a tactical advantage only once in a particular encounter.
Unarmed Combat Expertise: When fighting with his bare hands, the Justifier inflicts 1-4 points of damage on a successful attack roll. If the Justifier throws an unmodified 20 on his attack roll, the victim suffers 1-4 points of damage and must also make a saving throw vs. paralyzation. If the throw fails, the victim is stunned for 1-6 rounds.
Coordinated Attack: The Justifier can use this ability, in conjunction with a trained animal follower, to inflict maximum damage on an opponent. The animal follower must have been trained to attack on command. To attempt the coordinated attack, the Justifier and the animal both make a single attack on the same enemy in the same round (even if one or both are normally allowed multiple attacks; the animal will use its most damaging attack). If either roll misses, then that attacker automatically loses initiative in the next round. If both rolls hit, each attack causes twice the normal amount of damage. A coordinated attack involves only one follower. A coordinated attack may be attempted at any time during a combat, but only once against any particular opponent during an encounter.

Special Hindrances
Limited Proficiencies: The Justifier's mastery of weapons and combat comes at the expense of learning other skills. For this reason, he receives only one nonweapon proficiency slot at 1st level (in addition to his Survival bonus). He acquires additional proficiency slots at the normal rate.
Limited Spell Use: Because the Justifier devotes less time to the study of magic than to the military arts, he has less access to spells than other rangers. The Justifier doesn't acquire spells until he reaches 10th level.



Now, I realize that much of this doesn't carry over well to a CPRG environment, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
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Justifier Kit
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2004, 11:23:32 AM »
I'm just gonna throw a few ideas around here.

Advantages:
*Bonus to Stealth
*Tactical (Innate ability: based after on in description.)

Disadvantages:
*Can't wear greater than Studded Leather armour.
*Slowed Spell Progression.

Restrictions:
*Must be Human
*Must be of a Lawful Good Alignment.

Stat Min:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 3
Wis: 10
Chr: 3

Grey Acumen

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Re: Kits that never made it...
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2004, 11:24:49 AM »
I really like the idea of being able to stealth in full plate, and could be done I believe by scripting to re-enabling the stealth button. His disadvantages would be large drop in stealth and possibly having THAC0 dropped slightly.

I believe that the tactical advantage should basically be done by using a script to check when the justifier is stealthed, it then checks for an enemy to be in sight, if an enemy is in sight, it waits one round and then sets all allies to something like -25 THAC0 and 0 attack speed factor for 1 round. the likelyhood of success could go up with level, rather than wisdom.

Unarmed combat would work the same way the monk does.

Spell progression is a simple matter of adding a negative spell bonus to start out with. Then positive bonuses are added when needed.

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Justifier Kit
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2004, 11:25:32 AM »
I don't think Sneak Attack uses a Multiplier sort of thing, that's more like backstab? ^_^

So maybe there could actually be a sneaky attack :D They used it in Heart of Winter, I think ^_^

So... maybe... :D

Sneak Attack +1d6 starting at level 1, +1d6 every such and such levels? :D 8 maybe? :D Something ^_^ Uhh... added whenever makes a Critical (But not multiplied with it, rrr?)? :D And added whenever hits from hidings?

Slightly Improved Critical Chancey? :D Not sure how it's calculated in 2nd... and I don't really knows much about how it's like in 3rd either ;_; But uhhh, nothing too dwastic? ^_^

Can gets Mastery in Weapons, woof? :D

Can Sneaky in Medium Armor at Penalty? :) Uhh... if they can Sneak in Medium Armor as it is, umm... :) Umm :) Cats! ^_^

Defensive Harmony 1/Day, for 4 Rounds? :D Special Ability, but likey the spell, with lowered duration ^_^ No stacking with the spell please! :) Paws :D

+5% to Stealth

But Cons ;_;

Uhhh... d8 HP? :D

Terrible at Spellcasting? :D

No Dually-Classing? :D

No extra Dual Wield slotsies? :D

Charm Puppies set to Once Per Day FOREVAR? :'(

No Tracking HLA? :(

No Heavy Armor? ;_;

So... a not-quite-fighter not-quite-thief with Charm Puppies :)

Still, uhhh... feels hard to make a SUPREME COMBAT!!! version of a Ranger, or anything, because it would like, sacrifice utility stuff for combat... but in a CRPG, utility stuff probably isn't so great anyways? :(

Edit: Zow! And the whole Lawful Good thing, the Minimum Stats, that stuff ^_^ Under Restrictions :) Minimum stats is more like a bonus though, yikes? In Baldurey Gate 2

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Justifier Kit
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2004, 11:26:24 AM »
The Complete Ranger's Handbook gives a -95% penalty to both Hide in Shadows and Move Silently when wearing Full Plate, -75%/80% for Plate Mail, -30%/-40% for Splint Mail, -10%/-10% for Elven Chain, -30%/-40% for Chain Mail, and -50%/60% for Scale Mail (I think that these are the only armor types in BG1/2/ToB that are implemented other than Leather, Studded Leather, and Hide). The Justifier just gets a +5% increase to those skills, which hardly offsets the penalties. Further, the Justifier must be Human and Lawful Good, and has higher prereqs than most other Ranger kits. Given that the such choices are not exactly popular with most people, and severely (or, at least, should) limits the choices available to a particular player, then I see no real problem. I don't know whether or not it is possible to reduce the spellcasting progression, but if so it would help balance the Justifier further.

As to how to convert the abilities of the Justifier for the game, here are some ideas that I had a while back (BTW, sorry that it took me so long to find this thread; I had previously offered to help with the non-technical side of converting the Justifier, but dropped off the map due to life) along with some new ones:

1. Reinstituting the Brawler skill, and rather than gaining two pips in Two-Weapon Fighting, gain a pip or two in Brawler.
2. Stealth bonus of +5%, plus ability to sneak in all armors with appropriate penalties applied.
3. Weapon Mastery in only ONE weapon type and Brawler.
4. Gospel's idea of limited usages of Defensive Harmony (renamed to Coordinated Attack).
5. Human, LG only, with prime reqs instituted.
6. Reduced spell-casting capability.
7. (Possibly) No ranged weapon proficiency at all or greater than one pip (representing the Justifier's up-close-and-personal style of combat).
8. No TWF (too unbalancing if dual-wielding a weapon with which one has GM in, as it treads on the Fighter's toes too much), nor ability to learn TWF.

I think that this is very balanced, as it allows the Justifier to be different from the other types of Ranger kits available (the sneaky one, the animal one, and the ranged one) and limits the kit in several significant ways so as to keep it from being too powerful. Further, it creates a character type which is not possible to achieve from multi-/dual-classing, which is always a plus.

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Justifier Kit
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2004, 11:27:21 AM »
A hardcoded problem with stealth abilities is that by allowing Justifiers to use stealth in armor allows all other classes (thieves and rangers) to do it as well. Currently, all armor heavier than studded leather has a "disable stealth button" effect. AFAIK you can not make that effect subject to the kit of the person wearing it. The other alternative is to remove this effect and replace it with the stealth penalties listed above, but then it applies to every character with stealth and the capacity to wear heavier armor. You could probably script a workaround, though.

Offline jester

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Re: Kits that never made it...
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2004, 11:38:02 AM »
I think I already rained on the Justifier's parade during our last discussion over at FWS. I think it does not warrant the hassle to code it.

Sneaking in full plate, roflmao. It just does not sound edgy enough to me. No USP which is the no pubes of the marketing people. :D
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Offline Barren

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Re: Kits that never made it...
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2004, 01:42:43 PM »
As I once said, I think the Feralan kit would be fitting enough to be assigned to Minsc. I'd like to see it restored.
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Re: Kits that never made it...
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2004, 05:55:38 AM »
Isn't the Feralan supposed to be brought up by animals? That doesn't seem entirely appropriate for Minsc, although I suppose a case could be made for Boo. I must admit that "a man brought up by hamsters" doesn't quite have that mythical ring to it, though...
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Offline Andyr

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Justifier Kit
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2004, 06:00:17 PM »
Kit creation is not too hard, I could probably give it a go if you'd like. :)

How about this:

Justifiers must have minimum scores of 14 in Strength and Dexterity. They must be human and of lawful good alignment.

Quote
JUSTIFIER: Some expeditions are so demanding and some foes so dangerous that they require the attention of a highly trained specialist whose combat skills far exceed those of the typical ranger. Enter the Justifier, a master tactician whose military instincts, fighting versatility, and steely nerves places him in the first rank of elite warriors.

Though the Justifier specializes in neutralizing monsters, his skills qualify him for a wide range of adventures. he may organize guerilla forces and reconnaissance operations to gather information concerning enemy strength and logistics. He may execute strikes against monster lairs, rescue hostages, or eliminate tribal leaders or spell casters. For a determined Justifier, no job is too difficult, no enemy too formidable.

Advantages:
- The Justifier receives a +5% bonus to his hide in shadows and move silently skills.
- Due to their proficiency with weapons and assessment of their foes, Justifiers gain +1 speed factor and +1 thac0 per 10 levels.

Disadvantages:
- Because the Justifier devotes less time to the study of magic than to the military arts, he has less access to spells than other rangers. The Justifier doesn't acquire spells until he reaches 10th level.
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Offline Rathwellin the Bard

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Re: Kits that never made it...
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2004, 02:21:12 PM »
Justifier was probably *the* most fan requested Ranger kit during BGII development.  As I recall Dave told us that he brought it up internally a number of times but that one of the head guys was dead set against even thinking about it.  IMO this kit is not a good fit for UB.

Feralan on the other hand almost made it in ... only to be replaced by the Archer kit at the last second.

Putting the Feralan kit back in would be fine by me ... as would assigning it to Minsc.
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Offline icelus

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Re: Kits that never made it...
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 04:06:19 PM »
This is the information on the Feralan Ranger kit:

Quote
Description :     What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered ?  Or worse, children who are abandonned by their families in the wood ?  Sadly, most of the time, they succumb to the dangers of the wild.  But some fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter.  Cut of from the civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with their spirit, and the spirit of the wild.  In the process, they become a feralans, beings who combine the savagery of the beast, the intellect of a man, and the instinct and the sharp senses and reflexes of the predators.    

Requirement :   Cannot be of lawful aligment since they represent the wild.  Only good animals will take and raise children, so they must also be of good aligment.  The feralan must also choose what will be his familial species.

Weapons :   Club, knife, Spear (all), Quarterstaff, dart, Sling, javelin, handaxe, lance (light), Sap, Whip, blowgun, dagger, short bow, and any kind of primitive weapons of that sort.  They make themselves those weapon with rock, wood, and on rare occasion, metal.  If they loose one, or break one, in a few hours, they can make a new.  He must start with the weapon in the list.  But he can also use any weapon a standart ranger use, still, he prefer not to.  When using any non favored weapons, he suffer 2 to all attack roll.

Armors :   Feralan wear no armor at all, but leather sometimes.  They wear only what is usefull to them, to keep them warm, and confortable.

Special Benefits :

1- +2 bonus on animal empathy, +4 with familial species. 
2- +2 bonus on craft (leather working, weapon smitting)
3- +2 bonus on Handle animal, +4 with familial species.
4- +4 bonus in hide, +4 bonus in move silently.
5- +4 bonus in wilderness Lore.
6- A feralan begin with the climb skill at rank 5.
7- A feralan gain specials abilities depending on his familial species, like a Sorceror would gain special ability depending on his familiar.  See Page 50-51 in the players handbook.
See page 51 table 3-18 for examples.  The exception are that the Feralan does not have to be under a certain distance.  Regardles of the distance with any of his familial species, he retain that special gift.
8- Speak with animals :  The feralan can use this special ability any time he wishes, but it only work with his familial species.
9- Familial rapport :  Even an untrained animal, will do what the ferelan ask, provided he is physically capable of doing so, on command of the feralan.  This work only with his familial species.  Any bad treatment from the feralan will cause ressentment, and abandonment.
10- Animal training :  The ferelan can train any animals.  It is instinctive, so even if a nordic ferelan find himself in a southern area, he will be able to train elephants with no trouble.
11- Call of the wild :  The feralan may try to summon familial species when he is on their territory.  (He cannot summon camels in the polar circle).  To do so, the Feralan must howl at the top of his lung for 1d6 round.  The Dm then roll 1d%.  The feralan have 1% per level + 1 % per point in wisdom, +1 % per charisma modifier to get an answer to his call.  If the roll is a success, then 1d4 animal from the familial species will show up.  One of them will be a pack leader with 1 more hit dice and full hit points.  They will act like followers for the next 1d4 hours + 1 hours per charisma modifier, or until the needs for them is no more.  This power work only once per day.
12- Feral Rage :  During melee combat, the innitial wounding of an opponent when blood is draw, may impel the feralan into a special Frenzy of blood loss, increasing his fighting abilities.  A feralan may attemp to become enraged at any particular opponent.  After the first round, in wich the feralan inflict damages on an ennemy, the feralan can make a Willpower check DC 15.  If it his a success, than the feralan can tap into his feral instinct for survival.  He awaken the beast inside himself.  This work for the following 2d6 round, regardless of the level of the feralan.  During that time, the feralan cannot use magic, or communicate with anyone.  The feralan gain +4 in Str, +4 in Dex (+2 to AC regardless of the armor).  However, all attacks must be made against the designated opponent and the feralan must attack him in every round he is able; he can`t break an attack, or choose to attack someone else.  He must continue to attack the same ennemy until he die, the rage fade away, or the ennemy escape.  If the ennemy escape, he must pursue.  If the ennemy dies, then the rage fades away.  A feralan cannot try to become enraged two time in a single battle against the same ennemy.  The feralan can use this rage a number of time per day equal to his level + his wisdom modifier.

Special Hindrances :

1- Limited money.  A feralan has no interest in money.  He keeps only what he needs.  He start with 1d3 x10 Gp.
2- Reaction penalty.  When a feralan encounter someone, anyone, even the crudest barbarain half-orc, he will have a penalty of 3 modifier on his charisma roll.
3- Limited armors and weapons.
4- Limited magic.  Because of his animal tendencies and mental predisposition, the feralan may not have the same number of Spells as the other ranger.  He start to cast spells only at level 6.  His spells are : Animal friendship, Detects animals (not plants), Magic fang, Speak with animals, Pass without trace, Resist elements, Summon nature`s Ally 1.  Animal messenger, Cure light wounds, Hold animal, Summon nature`s ally 2, Greater magic fang, Remove disease, Summon nature`s ally 3, Polymorph self, summon nature`s ally 4.  He cast his spells like a caster of half his level 2.
5- Like barbarian, a Feralan need to spend 2 skill point to learn to read/write any language he is able to speak.







Feralan Spells progression.

Table for The Feralan :
Feralan level      Caster level      Ranger spells   Lvl 1   Lvl 2   Lvl 3   Lvl 4
6         1               0   -   -   -
7         1               0   -   -   -
8         2               1   -   -   -
9         2               1   -   -   -   
10         3               1   0   -   -
11         3               1   0   -   -   
12         4               1   1   -   -
13         4               1   1   0   -
14         5               1   1   1   -
15         5               1   1   1   -
16         6               2   1   1   0
17         6               2   1   1   1
18         7               2   2   1   1
18         7               2   2   2   1
20         8 (max)               3   2   2   1
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Justifier Kit
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2004, 04:11:07 PM »
I'm going to see if the speed factor thing will be done, then can probably make it this weekend. :) Since I probably won't do Iron M0ddar.

Will use the default HLA table.

Could probably make the Feralan too, will have a look at the thread in the main room.
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Offline icelus

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Re: Justifier Kit
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2004, 04:14:04 PM »
Thanks, Andyr.  If you're online tomorrow, I'll try to work with you on the kits if I don't get wrapped up in real-life madness (oxymoron?).  :)
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Justifier Kit
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2004, 08:44:45 AM »
I have coded this, with one small problem.

I was doing spells as being delayed by 3 levels, and worked out the combination of spell slots I need to add and remove, and when. It seemed to work ok, but then I remembered - bonus spells. Playing with a character with a high enough WIS for bonus spells (ie 12 or over, or something) messes up the progression.

So, I was thinking... Perhaps the Justifier should have spells disabled entirely? Or some other casting disadvantage?

The other thing about spells being 3 levels behind is they'll catch up to a kitless Ranger in spell power, just 3 levels later, so by ToB you've effectively got no disadvantages while you have all the Justifier advantages. So perhaps removing spells is a good thing?

Finally, I've left Charm Animal in. You want it in/out? :)
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Offline Andyr

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Feralan Kit
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2004, 08:49:12 AM »
Since the Justifier was quick to code, I started work on the Feralan. The thing is, it needs to be sufficiently different from the Beast Master.

From the Feralan description posted I tentatively came up with this:

Alignments: NG, CG.
HLAs: Standard.

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Advantages:

- 10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently skills.
- May go into a Barbarian Rage once per day per 10 levels.
- Some animal summon thing?

Disadvantages:

- May only place proficiency points in weapons a Druid can use.
- May not wear armour heavier than Studded Leather.
- Charisma cap is -2 compared to a standard member of the race.

Not sure what to do about the spell restrictions mentioned for this. The CHR cap is not nice :(, but I'm not sure how else to implement a reaction penalty?

The main thing I was worried about though, as I said, is similarity to Beast Master:

Quote
BEAST MASTER: This ranger is a wanderer, and is not comfortable in civilized lands. He maintains a natural affinity for animals; they are his friends and comrades-in-arms, and the Beast Master has a limited form of telepathic communication with them.

Advantages:
- +15% to stealth ability
- Enhanced spell ability with regard to the following spells:
May cast the 4th level druid spell Animal Summoning 1 at 8th level.
May cast Animal Summoning 2 at 10th level.
May cast Animal Summoning 3 at 12th level.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot not use metal weapons (such as swords, halberds, hammers or morning stars).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2004, 09:16:10 PM by Icelus »
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Feralan
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2004, 09:35:25 AM »
I suggest setting the Feralan's restrictions to those of a Shapeshifter (no armour, can only wield clubs, darts, spears, daggers, slings, and staffs).  To make up for this, perhaps bonuses to STR and CON, and/or the ability to place more stars than usual in the weapons he can use?
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Feralan
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2004, 10:07:15 AM »
So, replace the weapon/armour restrictions with the Shapeshifter ones, and allow Mastery with those weapons?

Then +1 STR, +1 CON but -2 CHR?

Keeping the skill and Rage abilities.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Feralan
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2004, 10:15:45 AM »
Sounds good to me :).
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Offline icelus

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Re: Feralan
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2004, 10:44:45 AM »
What about a speed increase, la Barbarian?

I'm not sure if he should be able to cast Animal Summoning spells as an innate ability, as then the line between the Beast Master and the Feralan would defintely become too blurry.  Would permanent Charm Animal be possible/too cheesy?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 10:47:49 AM by Icelus »
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Offline icelus

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Re: Justifier Kit
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2004, 10:55:49 AM »
So, I was thinking... Perhaps the Justifier should have spells disabled entirely? Or some other casting disadvantage?

The other thing about spells being 3 levels behind is they'll catch up to a kitless Ranger in spell power, just 3 levels later, so by ToB you've effectively got no disadvantages while you have all the Justifier advantages. So perhaps removing spells is a good thing?

Finally, I've left Charm Animal in. You want it in/out? :)
Well, if not removed completely, perhaps delayed even more than three levels behind the normal ranger. I also think that Charm Animal should probably be left out, and perhaps raise the bonus to stealth a bit more.

If you do remove spellcasting, perhaps leave Armor of Faith, Remove Fear, Luck, and/or Draw Upon Holy Might as innates? :-\
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 11:08:53 AM by Icelus »
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Justifier Kit
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2004, 12:14:09 PM »
How about a casting time penalty? Maybe 2/10 or 3/10 of a round or something...

BTW Andyr - completely OT, but: how DO you create a kit? It's not mentioned in any WeiDU tutorial I can find... :-\

Offline icelus

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Re: Justifier Kit
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2004, 12:18:18 PM »
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Feralan
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2004, 12:19:34 PM »
What about the original (D&D) Feralan summon animal ability? Isn't that one possible to code? It would certainly add originality to the class...

 

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