Author Topic: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.  (Read 10587 times)

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2004, 12:32:10 AM »
Just because someone's greedy is no reason to butcher them.  As for the others, I'd say they're all worthy of a quick axe to the face, except possibly Viconia.  As proven in ToB, she's capable of being redeemed, so it seems to me that killing her is going a bit overboard.

Even if you complete it without violence, you're depriving the good aligned government (and more importantly, the people) of Baldur's Gate of something which would prove to be a exceptional means of defense, an enormous source of income, etc; in other words, you're affecting the entire balance of power in the region.

Just imagine stealing the plans for the first aeroplane from the Wright brothers, and then giving the plans to Germany. If they were the only country in WWI with aeroplanes, the outcome of the war might have been very different...

If you allow them to make the sale, you're also affecting the balance of power in the region.  How do you know what'll happen if Baldur's Gate gets their hands on the skyships?  When I played through BG1 the first time, I thought I was doing the world a favour by denying them access to this technology, since I figured Halruaa was a nation that kept to itself and didn't interfere with other folks.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2004, 04:13:03 AM »
Most of the evil BG1 characters are so very subtle about being evil, too. Who are you thinking of, now? The crazy necromancer? The Red Wizard who talks to himself and insults you constantly? The psychopathic halfling? The drow priestess of Shar? The misogynistic con man? Name one evil BG1 NPC who a PC who wasn't stone deaf and stone blind could possibly avoid knowing was evil.
But what about a PC with an int and/or wis of 3? He'd barely be able to remember his companions names, let alone able to understand and remember their personalities.

Regardless, talking to yourself, being insane, eager for a fight, prejudiced, rude, arrogant, sexist, selfish, greedy, or just generally obnoxious are not traits that automatically makes someone evil. In fact, at least five of those traits can be prescibed to Anomen! A large number of good and neutral NPCs in both BG1 & 2 have at least one or two of those traits as well.

To me, Eldoth does not come across as evil at all. Sure, he may only be interested in making money, treat women as second class citizens, etc but how is that evil? Even a lawful neutral character could be like that. IIRC he doesn't once express an interest in murder, rape, torture or any other kind of genuinely evil activity.

Regarding Viconia, if you'd never even heard of Shar/were too stupid to understand what she was about/forgot what you'd been told/knew that some of her priests are neutral, and/or weren't prejudiced against Drow, Viconia wouldn't come across as particularly evil either.

Faldorn comes across as far more evil than either of these two characters, yet she's true neutral.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 04:25:31 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2004, 04:19:11 AM »
If you allow them to make the sale, you're also affecting the balance of power in the region. How do you know what'll happen if Baldur's Gate gets their hands on the skyships? When I played through BG1 the first time, I thought I was doing the world a favour by denying them access to this technology, since I figured Halruaa was a nation that kept to itself and didn't interfere with other folks.
The people who ask you to complete the task are standing in the middle of a thieves' guild. It doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out that their goals are not exactly intended to further the cause of good.  Also, Shandolar is well-respected sage who the PC would doubtlessly have been told about (in a positive light) by the monks of Candlekeep.

BTW (and obviously only a highish int/wis PC will know this), after reading up on Halruaa it seems my likening of Halruaa and Germany was more accurate than I realized; their attitude towards elves and half-elves is extremely similar to how Germany felt about Jews in the mid-to-late 1930's (just before the first concentration camps were set up)...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 04:21:03 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2004, 07:48:04 AM »
ahem.... shouldn't the second paragraph be containing an argument of sorts?
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Offline Caswallon

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2004, 08:53:04 AM »
Why exactly does self-defense from an unprovoked attack make you less virtuous?
The paladin (Phandalyn in FW1109) just attacks anyone with an evil alignment. Last time I checked, it was not forbidden to be of evil alignment, and I fail to see how the action of the paladin could be justified.
The only difference between the unlawful attack of the paladin and the unlawful attack of Joe-the-bandit is that the paladin spouts a line before.
So I'd say - neither virtue nor reputation drop. You're not killing an innocent.

The guy Andyr named in FW4600 (Laurel) is different in that he goes for low reputation (below 8 ). Laurel just clears the area from criminals when he attacks you; I'm in doubt how I would handle that situation. Which effects has fighting off a Flaming Fist band at really low reputation? Maybe something similar would be adequate here.

For the record: The difference between Laurel and Phandalyn is that when the former attacks, the party must have already committed evil actions in one way or another; when Phandalyn attacks, he just goes for alignment, which needn't have anything to do with your actions (though it should).
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2004, 10:27:27 AM »
Well, paladins do have an innate ability to detect evil...
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Offline Caswallon

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2004, 11:49:47 AM »
What are you referring to?
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2004, 01:31:14 PM »
From the Player's Handbook:

Quote
A paladin can detect the presence of evil intent up to 60 feet away by concentrating on locating evil in a particular direction. He can do this as often as desired, but each attempt takes one round. This ability detects evil monsters and characters.
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Offline mcruz

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2004, 03:28:53 PM »
Although i guess at times during the game 'defending yourself' shouldn't necessarily end in the death of the attackers (i.e you could knock them out, charm them etc) and maybe here is where virtue might make a difference.

It's too bad some NPCs in BG don't recognize when they're about to die and simply back off...
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2004, 06:13:02 PM »
he just goes for alignment, which needn't have anything to do with your actions (though it should).
Heheh. Try and spot what's wrong here. :)

Offline Caswallon

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2004, 06:38:58 PM »
So when I play a paladin, I will be allowed to randomly kill evil-aligned citizens?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 06:43:49 PM by Caswallon »
Man's Mystery
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This lies beyond our comprehension - why do you not despair?
--Spirit of the Daedra--

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2004, 06:50:43 PM »
That's not what I meant. I was indicating that Virtue does in fact alter it so that alignment DOES have something to do with your actions.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2004, 07:26:08 PM »
And, as far as that goes, every evil party-joinable in BG1 has committed multiple evil acts in the past.
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Offline Caswallon

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2004, 08:05:15 PM »
Sim: Ah. :)

Kish: Which doesn't alter my point - according to this, every evil non-joinable will have committed multiple evil acts in the past as well.
Should I be allowed to kill them without retribution from Virtue?

An evil-aligned person enters the tavern. It is right for a paladin to attack him? (As a general rule - not taking PC vs NPC etc. into account.)
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This lies beyond our comprehension - why do you not despair?
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Offline Drugar

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2004, 04:50:50 AM »
Of course not, one can be an evil person but not have committed any crimes. If I don't help out friends unless they pay me, don't stop a mugging because it's not my problem or smack a kid in the face because it's annoying (with a club), it makes me evil, though nothing to make me deserve death.
Any paladin who kills people simply because they're evil would get cast out of the Order asap. If they haven't commited an actual crime, there is no basis for execution.

Chaotic Good characters though, are prolly a different story.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2004, 08:42:51 AM »
If I don't help out friends unless they pay me, don't stop a mugging because it's not my problem or smack a kid in the face because it's annoying (with a club), it makes me evil, though nothing to make me deserve death.
I've long maintained that not taking an active part in proceedings tends towards neutral, even in cases where you can stop a crime or whatever. However, I think D&D disagrees because of all this balance rubbish, and I'm also fairly sure Kish doesn't support my view.

Quote
Any paladin who kills people simply because they're evil would get cast out of the Order asap. If they haven't commited an actual crime, there is no basis for execution.
You have to be careful here, though, because committing a crime or violating the paladin's code does not necessarily equate to performing an evil act.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2004, 10:37:57 AM »
I'd say that killing Phandalyn should not result in a Virtue drop (you're defending yourself from attack), but it may result in a Reputation drop, since you did kill a paladin...

Offline Drugar

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2004, 05:53:34 AM »
But no-one was around to hear it, so did she really fall?

Other example, if a 8 year old is teasing another kid to the point of crying, and Detect Evil reveals the kid to be evil (blame bad parenting by daddy Kangaxx), does a paladin have to kill the kid?
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2004, 06:01:31 AM »
Well, since all children younger than 8-10 years old are Chaotic Evil, It'd be impractical to kill them all...

Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2004, 06:45:20 PM »
What about a neutral character who deosn't commit evil acts himself, but keeps the company of both evi land good charatcers?  Should he/she be penalised for having diverse friends and protecting them?

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2004, 07:19:37 PM »
How evil are we talking about here?

NPC: Yes, I killed everyone in the village.  And ate the children with a nice white wine sauce.  I'm doing it in another village next Tuesday.
GUARD: You're coming with me.
PC: No, he's not, he's my friend.

I'd hit the PC's alignment hard at that point.
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Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2004, 09:19:59 PM »
Well that depends on what else was in the wine sauce.

Seriously, I didn't mean pure evil.

Offline Janneia

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2004, 04:08:36 AM »
In BG1, Charm Person works more like it does in P&P. You can question people you've charmed...and ask them for things.

My Algernon's cloak was on overdrive. Seriously. I had it on my thief who went around charming people then robbing them  ;) I took everything from the entire twon of Beregost once, when I was extremely bored. I couldn't get through one of the taverns though. Red Sheaf? The one where there's a locked crate with 9GP in it. That was the only thing I couldn't get....Anyway,

Quote
Heh.  I had forgotten about that - my characters were loaded up with Magic Missile and Sleep instead.

I liked Chromatic Orb too, later on in the game when they started to affect people.

Sorry for butting in. I couldn't help myself. honestly.  :P
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2004, 02:50:05 PM »
And, as far as that goes, every evil party-joinable in BG1 has committed multiple evil acts in the past.

  ummmm ???... if you say so.
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Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue for Tutu. It even rhymes. Almost.
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2004, 04:08:42 PM »
And, as far as that goes, every evil party-joinable in BG1 has committed multiple evil acts in the past.

ummmm ???... if you say so.

If you don't commit evil acts, you're not Evil. If you don't do good things, you're not Good. So sayeth my alignment philosophy. Which is why most people are Neutral.
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