Author Topic: Stopping Paladins from falling.  (Read 9626 times)

Offline Andyr

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Stopping Paladins from falling.
« on: September 01, 2004, 03:00:29 PM »
Anyone know if it is possible to stop Paladins falling when they do bad stuff?

I know you can use RemovePaladinHood and RegainPaladinHood, but I guess that could cause problems when you're an Evil character.

I'm thinking about this for a Blackguard kit - if I can base it on a Paladin, it will make things easier for me. :)
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2004, 03:59:46 PM »
There's no way of doing it at all, sorry. Virtue doesn't actually stop it either, but shh.

There's some SPL file that gets applied when a paladin falls which might help you out. I forget what it's called though. Anyone?

Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2004, 08:26:05 PM »
Any other ideas, anyone? Know what the SPL is?

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Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2004, 09:44:13 PM »
If its a matter of a spell being applied, I suppose the obvious answer would be to grant the Blackguard kit immunity to that particular spell.  However, since this is such an obvious answer, I guess this has already been tried and found not to work. :(
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Offline seanas

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2004, 04:59:12 AM »
i'm guessing you want a solution more elegant than the anti-paladin, yeah? it has a spell PALREP.spl which is assigned in the CLAB at lvl1; PALREP is an SetAIScript for ANTIPAL.BCS, which does:
Code: [Select]
IF
FallenPaladin(Myself)
ReputationLT(Myself,14)
Global("GOODIE_TWO_SHOES","LOCALS",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
RegainPaladinHood()
END

IF
!FallenPaladin(Myself)
ReputationGT(Myself,13)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("GOODIE_TWO_SHOES","LOCALS",1)
RemovePaladinHood()
END
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2004, 06:52:54 AM »
RegainPaladinHood and RemovePaladinHood aren't acceptable in a solution, because they change reputation. If a paladin falls to 1 rep, RegainPaladinHood will boost the rep straight back up to 10 or whatever the minimum is.

The spell I'm thinking of may well be SPCL234 or SPCL235, but I don't recall for certain. Immunity to the spell(s) won't work, because they don't contain ALL the effects of falling (like losing the paladin CLAB progression), but rather just some afterthoughts like disabling spellcasting.

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2004, 07:38:08 AM »
SPCL235 removes Turn Undead from an Inquisitor via CLAB so I doubt it's the generalized 'paladin falling' spell. I'm willing to bet it's a hardcoded engine feature.
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Offline Idobek

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2004, 07:44:12 AM »
SPCL351, SPCL234 & SPCL235 are the 3 spells applied by the fallen paladin CLAB file (CLABPA05). I haven't tried removing them to see whether the affect they have is actually hard-coded, but most of the results of falling are hard-coded.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2004, 07:49:44 AM »
Ah, yeh, the CLAB. I thought I tested it once (by stopping the buttons being disabled on falling), but then I think many things.

Anyway, the theory is that if it works, you re-add all the paladin's abilities via the CLAB, complete with title-change effect.

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2004, 08:05:23 AM »
One avenue of exploration Andyr and I were discussing was the IESDP listing for spell opcode 108--it seems to imply that party rep can be overridden with individual rep. So if we could somehow script individual rep (by re-applying a spell to keep it at, say, 12) regardless of party rep, everything would get along fine. We'll try it out and see if it works.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2004, 08:06:31 AM »
Party rep IS Player1's rep, though. ReputationGT(Player1,12) and all.

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2004, 08:08:02 AM »
Heh, I didn't even think about that before replying, good thing there's this "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." message. This theory would've made sense for trying to give Player2-6 an individual reputation.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2004, 10:39:31 AM »
I did not know there was a Fallen Paladin CLAB.

I might try granting the kit immunity to those 3 spells, then, and the Change Title effect and see what that leaves me with.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2004, 08:02:26 PM »
Well. What I tried in the end was appending this to BALDUR.BCS:

Code: [Select]
IF
FallenPaladin(Player1)
OR(3)
Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_EVIL)
Alignment(Player1,NEUTRAL_EVIL)
Alignment(Player1,CHAOTIC_EVIL)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ActionOverride(Player1,RegainPaladinHood())
END

I know to allow for multiplayer mode eventually I'd have to make blocks for players 2 - 6 too but this was for a test. This method works, except:

1. It resets Reputation to 10 every time.
2. Kit abilities are regained on the RegainPaladinHood, so even if you've used your allocations of Poison Weapon or whatever for the day, you'll get it back again.
3. Evil Paladins will Turn Undead rather than Command Undead. Can't seem to do much about that.

I had also tried doing AddKit instead of RegainPaladinHood but this just caused a stutter.

I will next see if giving the kit immunity to the Change Reputation opcode (#108?) stops Falling or not, and if so what affect it has on the rest of the party.

Any other ideas, let me know, else I'll see how it goes...

Cheers for the help thus far. :)
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2004, 01:07:28 PM »
Ok, immunity to opcode #108 doesn't stop Falling either.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2004, 11:50:27 PM »
if you can't be good don't play a paladin!
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Offline CamDawg

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2004, 07:18:32 AM »
I'm thinking about this for a Blackguard kit - if I can base it on a Paladin, it will make things easier for me. :)
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2004, 05:43:53 PM »
All the evil paladin kits in the past used the fighter as the base class.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2004, 05:46:55 PM by Lord Kain »
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2004, 05:50:36 PM »
I know. I'd rather use the Paladin, though, for spell access and Undead turning ability.
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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2004, 01:08:35 AM »
if you can't be good don't play a paladin!

Seconded! How's that supposed to be roleplaying if you play a paladin, but with an advance decision to be evil? I doubt one would be able to even become one, as their masters would surely be able to do detect evil at their discretion. If the choice would be based only on how powerful a paladin is/can be, then what kind of roleplaying is it???
Besides, alignment is not the choice of a player, it's rather a result of a player's choice in the manner that how the player behaves, wishes to behave, and will behave, determines their alignment. If you want to act lawful good, and put that on your sheet, a good (in technical sense, not alignment) GM/DM would chastise you if you start off at wrong foot, and your actions are evil right from the start.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2004, 02:04:49 AM »

  i'd consider (once i've glutted myself on mods for a while, at the latest) playing a paladin (prob. cavalier) through soa who fails at least one of the abyss tests (prob. pride) and spends tob in a bitter state until he - redeems himself?  damn, might have to learn how to edit his epilogue before i follow through on that one...  unless bioware actually left an easter-egg in there for Fallen?  doesn't strike me as likely, anyone out there done this before?

  and i still support an atonement package for potential future virtue-extension-paks.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2004, 04:06:15 AM »
Seconded! How's that supposed to be roleplaying if you play a paladin, but with an advance decision to be evil? I doubt one would be able to even become one, as their masters would surely be able to do detect evil at their discretion. If the choice would be based only on how powerful a paladin is/can be, then what kind of roleplaying is it???
Besides, alignment is not the choice of a player, it's rather a result of a player's choice in the manner that how the player behaves, wishes to behave, and will behave, determines their alignment. If you want to act lawful good, and put that on your sheet, a good (in technical sense, not alignment) GM/DM would chastise you if you start off at wrong foot, and your actions are evil right from the start.
You're confusing the game engine with D&D rules. They're not trying to create a paladin who happens to be evil, rather a completely seperate class which is basically the evil equivalent of a paladin. He worships an evil god, was trained in an evil temple, etc; he's not just a paladin who's "lost his way" or someone hiding out in the middle of a bunch of goody two-shoes, but someone who's always been evil and was granted his evil knighthood alongside other equally evil people.

The problem is that the BG2 engine doesn't allow the creation of new classes, so it has to be created as a kit for one of the classes that already exists in the game. If it were a fighter kit, it wouldn't be able to cast spells or turn/command undead; if it were a cleric kit, there would have to be a lot of fiddling around with spell removal via scripting. The paladin class is the closest thing available.

So it's only a paladin kit in the game engine sense, not the D&D sense.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 04:08:10 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2004, 11:13:38 AM »
Exactly what NiGHTMARE said; I want to create a Blackguard, which is an evil counterpart of the Paladin. But I want to use the Paladin's interface as it has the correct hp, save progression, thac0 progression, spell progression... You get the idea. ;)
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Offline neriana

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2004, 02:52:49 PM »
Have you had any luck with it, by the way, Andyr?
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Stopping Paladins from falling.
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2004, 03:07:57 PM »
No... I am still stuck to making them fall and then un-fall (but this gives them daily uses of abilites back and resets rep to 10).

Also I don't think it's possible to make them Rebuke Undead, only Turn Undead.
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