Author Topic: speaking of stating the obvious.  (Read 30315 times)

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2004, 12:09:14 AM »
<snip> they (and their smallprint allies) </snip>

There are actually more members in "the coalition" this time around.  Please remember, that sending troops is not the one and only requirement to be considered part of "the coalition".  There are several countries that are sending / have sent civil engineers (to help build infrastructure), medical teams, etc.  Just because they haven't sent military troops doesn't mean they aren't "helping"

Offline Regullus

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2004, 05:44:37 PM »
 

  I found this interesting site:

  www.spinsanity.org


  The site investigates political rhetoric. While Bush is clearly not their favorite person, the site attempts to be non-partison.  I have only glanced at the site but it looks interesting and worthwhile. The front page is current debates. At the moment the John Kerry record.  :P The other general myth debunking site is of course Snopes.

PS: The Scheer article that I quoted in my August 11 post is inaccurate.

 

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #152 on: August 30, 2004, 08:41:07 PM »
"A generation shaped by Vietnam must remember the lessons of Vietnam: When America uses force in the world, the cause must be just, the goal must be clear, and the victory must be overwhelming."
—George W. Bush, accepting the Republican nomination for president, August 3, 2000


On April 29, 2004, the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Foreign Operations asked Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defense, how many U.S. soldiers had been killed since the invasion of Iraq.

Wolfowitz responded: "It's approximately 500, of which—I can get the exact numbers—approximately 350 are combat deaths."

According to the Pentagon and news reports, the number of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq on the day Wolfowitz appeared before the committee was 722 (521 of them killed in combat). Wolfowitz is a chief architect of the U.S. war in Iraq.

(Sources: Les Payne, "Wolfowitz Is Numerically Challenged," Long Island (N.Y.) Newsday, May 2, 2004. "At Hearing, Wolfowitz Falls Short," The Associated Press, April 30, 2004.)
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #153 on: August 30, 2004, 08:42:22 PM »
(if war issues aren't enough:)

Bush has fought to repeal America's Better Classroom Act, which provides funds for repairing qualified public schools. His budget plans have consistently omitted any dedicated resources to help states and local governments address the estimated $127 billion needed for school maintenance.

The average American school is 43 years old. Almost one-third of all public-school buildings require major repair of roofs, exterior walls, windows, plumbing, lighting, and other features. Also, many schools do not have the wiring needed to support today's Internet and computer technology. When the American Society of Civil Engineers released its 2001 report card on the nation's infrastructure, school buildings received a D-, the worst grade given that year.

(Sources: Committee on Education and the Workforce, edworkforce.house.gov. American Society of Civil Engineers, "Full Report Card for 2001," asce.org. National Center for Education Statistics, "How Old Are America's Public Schools?," nces.ed.gov. National Education Association, "School Modernization Bill Just Common Sense," nea.org.)
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #154 on: February 09, 2005, 08:15:19 AM »
 i know regullus is getting busier with naming and painting and just Being In A Family Way, and mr. squirt seems to somehow be even busier than that, but nevertheless, in their honor, and for the sake of anyone who really enjoys reading about 'our' stellar political lies:
 
 http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n03/wein01_.html
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Offline jester

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #155 on: February 09, 2005, 08:58:03 AM »
What a nice medley. I also enjoy the minority sidekick theme on which this administration now even expanded beyond the known Miami Vice layout introducing a 'strong' women.

When it comes to truth and politics retreat is never an option: Retreat? Hell, we just got here!

My fav quote from the link above: 'I heard an American soldier say: 'There's a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think: "They hit us at home and now it's our turn." '

« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 09:19:10 AM by jester »
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #156 on: February 09, 2005, 02:21:34 PM »
 our turn.
 
 j.
 f.
 C....
  >:(
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 {ehr - what's teh compton's middle initial?}
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Offline discharger12

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #157 on: February 09, 2005, 08:45:43 PM »
Because I'm too lazy to look through the 5 other pages of this thread, I would just like to mention that much of George Bush battery is bull-shit, just trying to discredit him. Much like what you can find from any other president. There's always going to be a disapprover.

The other general myth debunking site is of course Snopes.

Bush Lore: (Snopes)

According to a study by the Lovenstein Institute, President Bush has the lowest IQ of all presidents of past 50 years.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm

Collection of memorable misstatements attributed to John Kerry or George W. Bush. (much of this are similar to Cybersquirts first post)
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/candidate.asp

During a photo opportunity at a 1988 grocers' convention, President George Bush was "amazed" at encountering supermarket scanners for the first time.
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/bushscan.htm

"Make the Pie Higher!" poem is composed of actual quotes from George W. Bush.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/piehigher.asp
* Echani shrugs. He's not a great public speaker.

President George W. Bush or Senator John Kerry cited the wrong verse as his favorite Biblical passage.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/bibleverse.asp

Photo shows Yale undergraduate George W. Bush delivering a punch to the face of a rugby opponent.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/rugby.asp
So what? He was in College, and playing some rugby.

Meh, there's so much crap, that I can't bear to look further. From what I can tell it is but mere slander.

Offline St. Josephine

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #158 on: February 09, 2005, 09:01:57 PM »
There's always going to be a disapprover.

Oh, I think there's more than just one.  Try 57 million.  ;)

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Offline discharger12

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #159 on: February 09, 2005, 09:03:23 PM »
I was speaking of in general.

But then, it is hard to tell of sarcasm by mere words.

And the whole "Google/miserable failure" thing is just horrid. I don't care who the president is, that's just not right.

Offline Neffra

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2005, 02:29:07 PM »
Ah the wonders of Democracy. Oh, to be able to speak out and say you dislike the current president and hope to not be called 'unpatriotic' for doing so... ::)

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2005, 03:46:31 PM »
 dis - if the material *supporting* bush wasn't even *more* rhetorically loaded, saturated with buzzwords like 'freedom' and 'values', i think you might have a point.  but seriously - he doesn't need your pity, and the whole 'miserable failure' thing isn't going to hurt his feelings.  he hasn't truly been discredited, though he deserves to be (or at the ABSOLUTE least his ~entire cabinet deserves to be).  he might be "a human", but so far he's way beyond these petty sling[bullet]s and arrows.  and he's still Getting Away With It.
 
Quote
Because I'm too lazy to look through the 5 other pages of this thread, I would just like to mention that much of George Bush battery is bull-shit . . .
  do you notice how you're invalidating your input right there?
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Offline discharger12

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #162 on: February 10, 2005, 06:52:38 PM »
I didn't say that it would hurt his feelings, I was saying it was disrespectful.

And how would that discredit my input? If anything repeating it would validate it further.

What we all think of Bush is an opinion. And opinions aren't right or wrong, no matter what anyone says. Saying "my opinion is right" is but another opinion, among millions of others.

But then who am I to say? I'm young. I have no insight into politics, other then what I read and hear from my parents.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2005, 06:55:11 PM by Echani »

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2005, 02:44:55 PM »
So you're saying that the position of President should be respected regardless of what sort of idiot or fuckup or megolomaniac is holding it? nononono. A person can earn respect. A position does not. *sigh* Nationalism.

An Bush has failed to do anything respectworthy.
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2005, 05:31:46 PM »
Quote from: discharger
Because I'm too lazy to look through the 5 other pages of this thread, I would just like to mention that much of George Bush battery is bull-shit . . .
Quote from: discharger
And how would that discredit my input? If anything repeating it would validate it further.
'too lazy' for details + 'just like to mention' = not very creditable.
 and - calling it bull-shit is rather separate from calling it disrespectful.  (or perhaps that depends on your definition of either.)
 and - since you'd had ample time to read any portion of the earlier posts before my 'update', which was, i believe, technically why you were even replying in the first place - try hitting the link i posted.  it is almost entirely quoting, with the occasional fill-in of research.  no insults.
Quote
But then who am I to say? I'm young. I have no insight into politics, other then what I read and hear from my parents.
it's fairly safe to say that at least 99.99% of people who have an opinion on any of this don't actually *know* everything (and in most cases, anything) firsthand.  it inevitably has more to do with what sources you trust and what you want to or are inclined to believe, than it does with being "informed" in any absolute sense.
 so please, go read more, talk more, hear more.  your references were basically to active bush-bashing.  look for the factors *behind* their desire to bash.  some of them are democratic-party hacks.  some of them are fanatical pacifists.  some of them still tout pure representative democracy, which, just so you know, has never occurred in the u.s. [see Colleges, Electoral].  some of them are just intellectual snobs who don't really care about larger issues (or are catering to such people).  check their sources, not just snopes {which, imo, is getting too much recognition as some kind of 'paragon of skepticism', and getting sloppier in its delivery}.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 05:35:35 PM by Reverendratbastard »
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2005, 05:22:04 AM »
i know regullus is getting busier with naming and painting and just Being In A Family Way, and mr. squirt seems to somehow be even busier than that, but nevertheless, in their honor, and for the sake of anyone who really enjoys reading about 'our' stellar political lies:

Ms. Squirt got disqusted.  (ahem, those are breasts on my avatar, not pecs  ;D)

(After the election, well, lets just say that I decided the majority of folks want to remain ignorant.)

Besides, and ultimately, this is a gaming forum.  (And I just felt like this was dragging it down)  But I will say that I was happy to see that this thread wasn't buried 200 pages deep.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 05:24:34 AM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline Silk

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #166 on: March 24, 2005, 05:33:08 AM »
<stays right out of this one because she isn't American>
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #167 on: March 24, 2005, 05:44:43 AM »
(chuckles) Aw.  c'mon!
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #168 on: March 24, 2005, 05:48:23 AM »
My fav quote from the link above: 'I heard an American soldier say: 'There's a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think: "They hit us at home and now it's our turn." '

(fuck it, and here goes the neighborhood)

This is the thing that pisses me off the most.  People STILL believe Iraq is responsible for 9-11.  And you know the most disgusting thing about that quote?  The Iraqis, themselves, had NO say in what Sadam did - but we sure in hell are supposed to have a say in what OUR government does.  But there's too many discharger's out there.  (No offense dude, but you called it yourself - it is sad that you don't care about the president)

(See?  That's why I quit this thread.  And will now do so again  :-\)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 06:05:07 AM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline Silk

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #169 on: March 24, 2005, 06:07:09 AM »
All right, at the risk of alienating half the forum.  I don't think Bush is good for America.  I don't believe a country should commit illegal acts as judged by the United Nations.  I don't think the ordinary people of Iraq are responsible for half the hate they're recieving.  Note: New Zealand stayed right out of this war.  We are now supplying peace keeping troops but considered the war itself illegal.
"Some say that our destinies may be read in the stars, that the plans of the gods are revealed to those who but know where to look.  They speak it true but their location is false, for I have seen my destiny shining in your eyes" (Anomen, PPG NPC Flirt Pack)

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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #170 on: March 24, 2005, 06:27:02 AM »
My fav quote from the link above: 'I heard an American soldier say: 'There's a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think: "They hit us at home and now it's our turn." '

(fuck it, and here goes the neighborhood)

This is the thing that pisses me off the most.  People STILL believe Iraq is responsible for 9-11.  And you know the most disgusting thing about that quote?  The Iraqis, themselves, had NO say in what Sadam did - but we sure in hell are supposed to have a say in what OUR government does.  But there's too many discharger's out there.  (No offense dude, but you called it yourself - it is sad that you don't care about the president)

(See?  That's why I quit this thread.  And will now do so again  :-\)
That's tragic. Especially since Iraq was IN NO WAY INVOLVED in 9-11. ;_;

I'd say I can't believe people voted Bush back in. but people also voted Howard back in. ;_;
Whats it all mean? People suck. And should be TERMINATED.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #171 on: March 24, 2005, 06:42:12 AM »
All right, at the risk of alienating half the forum. I don't think Bush is good for America. I don't believe a country should commit illegal acts as judged by the United Nations. I don't think the ordinary people of Iraq are responsible for half the hate they're recieving. Note: New Zealand stayed right out of this war. We are now supplying peace keeping troops but considered the war itself illegal.
I think half the forum avoids/avoided this thread.   ;)

Seems to me that only the (willfully) ignorant and the very rich think Bush is "good" for America.  Illegal and expensive.  But don't worry.  We're going to dismantle the UN soon enough so they won't bother us when we invade Syria.  (I say this with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek to avoid choking on it.)  The Bush Administration is dangerous - they're bad for a lot of things; America was only the beginning.

from www.nationalpriorities.org:
Quote
... a total cost of $207.5 billion estimated by the National Priorities Project by analyzing the legislation for the three allocations made by Congress plus the recent supplemental request submitted by the Bush Administration. The first appropriated about $54 billion for the Iraq War (passed in April 2003), the second $71 billion (November 2003), and the third $21.55 billion (June 2004). The fourth request was just submitted to Congress and has around $61 billion in Iraq War-related spending.

Where did all this money come from?  Not all of it came from the (now depleted) surplus.  This leads to: what are we giving up to pay for it?
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #172 on: March 29, 2005, 01:30:33 PM »
Where did all this money come from?  Not all of it came from the (now depleted) surplus.  This leads to: what are we giving up to pay for it?

  even more[/i] education?
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Offline Regullus

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #173 on: April 07, 2005, 02:07:56 PM »
 I often wonder about these random quotes of idiocy involving the "average individual." 

  The American man on the street interview:

Interviewer: "Sir, could you tell me what we are celebrating on July 4th?"

Man on the Street: "No. Oh wait maybe it has something to do with WWII?" ::)

 Headlines across the US. Average American has no idea why we celebrate July 4th.

 Last presidential electon (circa late 2004):

Interviewer: "Excuse me Miss, could you tell me who is the vp of the US?"

Woman on the Street: "Al Gore."

 A friend of mine in her 30s: "Is it Christ's resurrection we are celebrating at Christmas?"
                                  Me: "Uh no. Its the birth.
                                 Her:  "Oh right."  (Another example of rabid Christian fundamentalism that is sweeping the US) ;D

 In defense of my friend, I believe she had what is known as a "brain fart."

 In all seriousness, in my experience, I have met few people who are genuinely stupid or as misinformed as the above examples might indicate.  Generally, whether it is the clerk at the convenience store, or the plumber fixing, well, the plumbing, people are quite well informed and thoughtful.

 A final note, the last time I went to the Democratic Underground site was after the Berg beheading and basically what they were saying is that it was not terrorists, Baathists, insurgents who committed the act but instead  it was American Secret Agents and their reasoning was fivefold:

 1) The executioner was fat and there are no fat Iraqis.

One of things I noticed was in the crowds that celebrated SH before the beginning of the war was that much of the crowd was comprised of fat men. Jokingly I said to someone that it would be easy to pick out a Baathist because they were fat. The weight, imo, indicated their privileged status under SH.

 2) Some of participtants in the beheading wore sneakers. No Iraqis ever wore sneakers.

 Again, I could not help notice the varieties of goods, from Coors beer to Vanity Fair magazines, available to members of SH's regime.

 3) American mannerisms of the execution party. This was said but never truly defined.

 I have no idea what was meant.

 4) Beheading is a type of execution foreign to Iraqis.

 Hmm. Well, to me, there did seem to be some examples of beheading within the culture.

 5) The Americans did it because they wanted to cause shock/horror against the freedom fighters of Iraq.

 Best reason to attribute the beheading to American Secret Agents.

 A personal peeve of mine, I hate it when people use false argument (unless I do it). I will give you two examples.

 A editorial against dirt bike riders: Amongst the several valid points the writer espoused, he also included the fact that dirt bike riders were fat and out of shape.  The long and short of that argument is no. Professional dirt bike riders are among the fittest athlete in the world. An out of shape dirt bike rider could not ride 50' down a trail.

 A young man, a proponent for veganism, centered his argument on the fact that humans have herbivorous teeth. There are many sound and moral arguments to be made in favor of veganism but that humans have herbivorious teeth is not one of them.


End of rambling rant. :)
 

 


Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #174 on: April 08, 2005, 06:44:02 AM »
(Regullus!  :-*)

All in context, eh?  ;)

Our world is only as big as we make it.  These days, I would love to see truth - fact, as opposed to (outright) lies or opinions - but opinions often become truths, so how does one recognize it?

(Bush never directly stated that Iraq was responsible for 9-11, but he implied it quite a bit via WMD's and all that [supposed] proof - the little vial comes to mind.)  As to the soldier/s, specifically, I know (only from alternative media) that there is also quite a bit of dissention, but I doubt the soldier quoted is such an isolated incident/view/belief - I'd imagine you've got to be able to justify being there (and doing what they do) somehow..

A poll conducted w/in the last few months showed that over 50% of the people polled believed not only that Iraq was responsible for 9-11 but that inspectors actually found WMD's there.  (I seriously don't know whether to laugh or cry over that one).

Folks will grasp at anything to explain something away that they have no explaination/sound reasoning for.  Those of us who are not content to ascribe it to god's will, need reason.  Seems to me, there was always a loud crowd that called to science, for proof, not emotion or ethics.  So for one to make a case for veganism, one needed scientific proof.  At least, that's the way it was.. or maybe that was my perception.  ...?  In any case, I've heard about the teeth thing.  <chuckles>  Funny how many silly things ingrain themselves into our brain only to be remembered years later - and then forgetting the name of someone I've known for months.  Brain fart indeed.  :-[

Speaking of lack of science, and as an aside because I don't want to start a religious/abortion debate, I had the 'luxury' of passing a pro-life billboard today, which stated that a 12-week old fetus can smile. <coughs>  This billboard, of course, had a picture of a 10-month old baby on it.  I wouldn't call it 'rabid' Christian fundamentalism, but it is there and it has real political power.  Why do you think George is/was making such a big deal about praying?  Why did Kerry talk about his ..higher power or god, or whatever term the twit used?  In fact, why is abortion such a heated issue?  (Why did Clinton get impeached over a blow-job?  :-X)

In any case, I made a comment to a friend of mine the other day.  It's painfully obvious that we, as a society, are undergoing dramatic changes.  Perhaps we are continually evolving, I don't know, but a lot of shit has certainly happened in the last 5-6 years.  I, for one, am not exactly encouraged by the direction we're heading.  Am I crazy or have we headed back to the 50's?  A theory I read a while ago, so I forget a lot of it, basically states that things/ideas will continually cycle in societies.  Is everything truly destined to cycle?  If so, I can only hope the sixties are close.  8)

Politics has always had a certain level of corruption, but this Administration ... I refuse to talk about them any more.  But one thing that has certainly changed, over the years, is that people are not voting like they were.  Even in this last election there was only a... 65% turnout?  I don't have the exact number and don't fel like searching for it.  It was the highest turnout since X but it certainly wasn't the highest turnout ever.  Are they tired?  Disgusted?  Apathetic? 

The average American is probably very much like me.  ..too tired from working to fight; knowing that something's definitely wrong with the way things are but powerless to change the monster machine that is politics.  Some of us have little time to do anything but work. What free time we have.. well.. some of us don't want to bother "wasting" it on doing things that won't make a diff. anyway.  And then we are obviously divided in our opinions about this administration (he got re-elected somehow).

But that's not enough of a reason for me.  (dammit)

I don't think people are stupid either.  I use the term willful ignorange for a reason.  The thought that has cycled through my brain for the last ... while, was that the average American (hell, the average person) wants to live and love and they want to be able to Trust their f*cking elected officials to do the right thing - just as we do the job we're paid to do.  When we don't do our job, we're fired.  They aren't fired because... why?  People are people?  What is stupid to one is not stupid to another?  ;)

Bah.  :-yin
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