Abstract Assessment of Ascension -- SimDing0

[icelus]

So I noticed that the "favourite mod" thread has a remarkably high incidence of votes for Ascension as the best mod ever. This got me thinking...why?

With some help from Compton, I was able to break Ascension down into its key components:

1. Makes Balthazar not-necessarily-must-kill, and allows him to join you for the final fight. A good thing, given that killing him tended to be unsatisfactory for many characters.

2. Brings back Irenicus and Bodhi. An unsatisfying cliche for me given that this makes a total of four times you fight Irenicus. Arguably interesting dialog, and siding with Bodhi is positive.

3. Imoen Slayer Change. Yes please.

4. Replacement of wave of semi-random enemies with the Five and different semi-random enemies. Another cliche: all your dead enemies return for the boss fight. Coupled with Irenicus, Bodhi, and even Sarevok, you've really got everything you need for a fairly unsatisfactory ending (sadly, the Chinchilla doesn't make an appearence). The original was bad, but this is hardly a major improvement really.

5. Significantly tougher endgame. Lots of people like tougher combat. I don't, and if this is the general consensus on what makes a mod good, why isn't Tactics up there?

6. Expanded epilogues. However, let's have a quick third-party interlude: "Unfortunately most of them are either only modestly more detailed, don't go nearly far enough in addressing the critical character branches, or make problems with the existing epilogues even worse (Jaheira.) The epilogues were mostly wasted effort, in my view, since the biggest problems (satisfying handling of the Sarevok branching, and the Jaheira romance epilogue) weren't solved." I can't comment on this personally, given that I haven't examined them all in detail, but there the assessment stands.

7. Bhaalspawn abilities restored in ToB. Come to think of it, why isn't this in Unfinished Business too? Neutral in my eyes, given that new Really Really Powerful Abilities (tm) don't add much excitement for me.

8. Does not remove "Bondari reloads" and other bad Gaider design decisions. But I think we can forgive this one.

9. Additional point raised by Kish after initial post: Sarevok may now betray you at the Throne of Bhaal. This is a welcome point, but happens only if playing on Hard or Insane, meaning that many players will miss out on it. He also notices the Sword of Chaos, which is something that should really have been in the game from the start.

We can see an overall positive trend, but I don't feel that this justifies the title of "best mod ever" (so what does, Ding0, I hear you cry). Ascension replaces a cliched ending with a different equally cliched ending, albeit somewhat tougher.

I've heard the argument that it's the best simply because it fits in seamlessly with the original game. So there is a common author: Gaider. But then, let's not forget that some of the dialogue was also written by Quitch. Let's also not forget that David Warner wasn't on hand, so lines we expect to be voiced in Ascension aren't. This is a dead giveaway; by the end of ToB, we know what's going to be voiced and what isn't.

Essentially, I've come to conclude that the main attraction of Ascension is not so much that it is particularly outstanding but rather that it is "semi-official content" and "written by senior designer David Gaider", hence "must be good"! Really?

I welcome anyone who challenges this conclusion.

[jester]

Egads, the AAA strikes again. Even worse I cannot remember my arguments from back then. Beware the zombie thread.

[Quitch]

While I wrote some of the dialogue, Gaider also wrote dialogue for characters he didn't write in ToB.

I think the appeal of Ascension is that it fits into the existing game, does so in a way that appeals to the majority of players.  Yes, enemies coming back from the dead is cliche, but cliches hang around for a reason, they work, people like them.  In this instance, the cliche makes sense.  On top of it all, this was the end to a major serious that people had invested months in... having all those old enemies come together for one last time, for most people that's EXACTLY what they wanted, and THAT is, IMO, why people like it so much.  It gives a sense of closure that was missing originally.  Some well known faces come along to bolster the "came from nowhere" Melissan (and Dave used to always spell it Mellisan )

Tactics doesn't do so well because it puts in hard fights here and there, but Ascension puts in a tough fight where you'd expect it: at the end of the game.  Not only is it tough, but it's epic.  You have spells blasting everything, demons being summoned, items being used... it all comes together in this one fight.  There's also the fight that each member of the five is well known now, and you see their personalities coming through in the way they fight, each being defeated in a different way.

It's hard to explain, but I can see why Ascension is so popular.  Yes, I'm sure the Dave Gaider name doesn't hurt, but I think it's more the area it chose to modify more than anything that won it its place.  The ending was weak, people wanted something harder, something... epic.  Ascension is there to give them that, and I think it did pretty well.

[Kish]

Since this thread has been resurrected, I feel an obligation to comment--again--that saying, "I know the real reason people like a mod I don't, and their reasoning is invalid!" is really colossally obnoxious.

[SimDing0™]

Saying that someone's reasonning is invalid isn't obnoxious. You do it all the time.

I think the appeal of Ascension is that it fits into the existing game, does so in a way that appeals to the majority of players.

While I see the appeal to players, I don't think it fits in flawlessly. I know Kish disagrees, and far be it for me to suggest that he might be wrong, but Ascension lacks voicing, which is in my view a major problem for such a climactic mod.

Tactics doesn't do so well because it puts in hard fights here and there, but Ascension puts in a tough fight where you'd expect it: at the end of the game.

I agree here very strongly. Tactics makes the game too inconsistent, if nothing else. However, I also feel that Ascension's battle is overdone. Right, it's meant to be epic, but there's nothing in an unmodded game that comes anywhere close to Ascension, particularly at higher difficulties.

The ending was weak, people wanted something harder, something... epic.  Ascension is there to give them that, and I think it did pretty well.

I think I buy this, at least in part, as an explanation. I've seen Redemption bundled alongside Ascension as a "must have" mod, even though by all accounts it's not the supposed great piece Ascension is; presumably this too comes from its dramatic impact at the end of the game.

[Kish]

Saying that someone's reasonning is invalid isn't obnoxious. You do it all the time.

But never preceded by, "I know what your real reasoning is, so I'm just going to dismiss all this crap you claim it is."  Cutting what I objected to in half doesn't make you look better.

[SimDing0™]

Shit. I didn't realise how terrible this thread made me look. Thank you for showing me the way, Kish. *huggles*

[jester]

I crave variation and the only reason BG2 is still with me are all the mods out there. I am looking forward to Redemption TLR as much as to Sim's quest pack for TOB which will hopefully make it less linear (hint, hint). I think people playing on insane deserve no less than what Ascension gives them now . I feel that even for an epic player it should be next to impossible to beat some of the creatures in game. I mean all the dragons are pushovers for example which annoyed me from the first day on.

[Da_venom]

every creature has it weaknes
it just takes awhile and play hours to find out  so that makes it more fun to me just like the end battle playing it over and over untill you finally win


acsension does a real good job in making the end more interesting. the prvious end what just too weak..

and most players want a hard ending , a major difficulty to overcome

[Crokus]

I think Ascension is so popular becaus it improves the worst thing in the BG saga - the throne of bhaal expansion pack. Sadly its the only one that does anything with Tob's plot! 

If another mod would make Tob less lineral and give the five some more character, i bet it would be nominated as the "best mod ever" in a second.

[Da_venom]

i still wonder one thing though...

i mean tob's story is like this right... the five are being misled by mellisan? they must kill all bhaalspawns and help mellissan..while mellisan uses them to kill the bhaalspawn when thereafter she is going to kill the five...and then take all of bhaals power to become a god?

but then i wonder when at the end they come fighting again for mellissan..

shouldn't there be some reasoing with the 5 that mellissan was betraying them?

so there could be a few new possiblities at the end..


1) you fail to reason with the 6

2) you reason with them and they run from the battle field

3) you reason with them and help you kill mellissan

could be in idea

[Kish]

They come fighting for Melissan because they don't have a choice.  She controls them utterly--as she tells you.

[mcruz]

Does anyone have any ideas on why she can utterly control them??

[Kish]

She put a lot of her stolen Bhaal essence into recreating them.  Balthazar comments that their creation weakens her.  They are, essentially, not the actual Five so much as extra avatars of Melissan.

[Barren]

I think Ascension is so popular becaus it improves the worst thing in the BG saga - the throne of bhaal expansion pack. Sadly its the only one that does anything with Tob's plot! 

If another mod would make Tob less lineral and give the five some more character, i bet it would be nominated as the "best mod ever" in a second.

You know, you're right: TOB needs more mods. Shall we brainstorm?

[Crokus]

You know, you're right: TOB needs more mods. Shall we brainstorm?

sure

* rule Saradush with or without Gronmir
* create an army for yourself in Saradush - the army of bhaalspawn
* negotiate with the five
 
there are so many possiblities, but at the moment <CHARNAME> has to take the most boring path 

[Da_venom]

you can't negoiate with the 5 they got orders from mellissan, but maybe you can double trick them

however i do believe there should be better opponents or more encounters

also fighters have an advantage on tob spellcasters ain't that great at least not so great in SOA so if you could change that

[Barren]

Another thing we need: more thieves! The most powerful thief in the game is the pathetic Kiser Jhaeri. Once I suggested a thief maze full of Spike Traps and Assassinating assassins....

[Crokus]

you can't negoiate with the 5 they got orders from mellissan, but maybe you can double trick them

however i do believe there should be better opponents or more encounters

also fighters have an advantage on tob spellcasters ain't that great at least not so great in SOA so if you could change that

Yes, Melissan created the alliance but they arent mindless drones. If Sendai and Abazigal see that  you are ruling Saradush with an iron fist and annihilated Yaga-Shuras army, they're going to rethink their next move.

More encounters - sure, but not more petty quests, you get enough of them in BG1 and SoA.

[Da_venom]

i didn't say more quest eh? unles there very hard all those softy guest you have now puhhh:/

and sendai and abazigal are stronger then yaga shura

they dun care if that noob giant does

[mcruz]

i didn't say more quest eh? unles there very hard all those softy guest you have now puhhh:/

and sendai and abazigal are stronger then yaga shura

they dun care if that noob giant does

well if it wasn't for the PC destroying the heart then Yaga Shura would surely be the strongest....

[Kish]

I agree that it would make sense for the Five to be swayable before they die and get recreated by Melissan.  They're not loyal to Melissan, after all, just tricked by her--and then controlled by her.

Yaga-Shura's heart is part of his power.  Whether it makes him the strongest of the Five depends on whether any of the others could have tracked his heart down and destroyed it if they had to (I would bet Sendai, at least, would have enough knowledge to put it out without Nyalee's help if she once got her hands on it).

[Barren]

Why hasn't Melissan tried to recruit the PC? I mean, she approached all the other of the six most powerful Bhaalspawn, even the oh-so-righteous Balthasar...

[Quitch]

However, I also feel that Ascension's battle is overdone. Right, it's meant to be epic, but there's nothing in an unmodded game that comes anywhere close to Ascension, particularly at higher difficulties.

I personally feel the fight is a tad too hard, but that's really a combination of it being tested by some real veterans of the game, and the fact that there was supposed to be an emphasis on the difficulty slider.  In the end, people felt that they wanted to lean towards it being too hard, with the slider there to knock it down, rather than too easy and having to restort to cheesy damage ratios to get a challenge.

[Kish]

Why hasn't Melissan tried to recruit the PC? I mean, she approached all the other of the six most powerful Bhaalspawn, even the oh-so-righteous Balthasar...

Uh?  She does recruit him/her, and sets him/her to killing the Five.  She tells different lies to the PC than she does to the Five, but she's equally dishonest with both.