Author Topic: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?  (Read 6093 times)

Offline BobTokyo

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Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« on: July 11, 2004, 10:38:06 AM »
Is it possible to add virtue penalties for all acts of theft outside of areas where hostile encounters occur? Would that be desireable?

 

Offline jester

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2004, 06:40:47 PM »
I think that would be good, but the should be a move away from absolute numbers to virtue hits according to your alignment and how well you play it. Evil deeds getting less evil relative to your alignment sounds weird at first, but killing one innocent is different for a paladin compared to a CE assassin in virtue terms. On the other hand one really good deed would not matter much for a saint, but it would be a massive change for this mentioned killer. Changes to the opposite direction should get more weight. I would love the combination with this idea http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?topic=16057.0. :D

Edit: typos
« Last Edit: July 11, 2004, 06:56:29 PM by jester »
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Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2004, 06:48:29 PM »
I agree with that. One more act of petty theft means nothing to Hanibal Lechter, means little to Will Scarlet, and means a geat deal to Gallahad.

Offline Imrahil

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2004, 07:16:03 PM »
The only problem I see with giving a Virtue hit to *all* acts of Thievery is that it assumes the NPC's are all mindless robots subject to CHARNAME's will.  Wouldn't it be perfectly in character for Jan to pickpocket a scroll he has his eye on, possibly without even telling his party leader CHARNAME.  Just because the player controls every action Jan makes doesn't mean that CHARNAME is responsible (well, unless we're actually trying to measure the Virtue of the player rather than the character).

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Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2004, 07:26:58 PM »
The only problem I see with giving a Virtue hit to *all* acts of Thievery is that it assumes the NPC's are all mindless robots subject to CHARNAME's will. Wouldn't it be perfectly in character for Jan to pickpocket a scroll he has his eye on, possibly without even telling his party leader CHARNAME. Just because the player controls every action Jan makes doesn't mean that CHARNAME is responsible (well, unless we're actually trying to measure the Virtue of the player rather than the character).

- Imrahil

Could the virtue hit be in proportion to the alignment of the NPC who performs the action? If LG CHARNAME swipes a scroll it costs X points of virtue, NG Imoen swipes a scroll costing the party X-1 points of virtue, CN Jan swipes a scroll costing the party x-3 points of virtue?

Offline rreinier

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2004, 03:36:17 AM »
That would imply that theft actually costs more than 3 Virtue points?  :o

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2004, 06:43:51 AM »
That would imply that theft actually costs more than 3 Virtue points? :o

Or that it costs a LG person 3 points, a NG person 2 points, and a CN person 0 points. 2 for LG, 1 for NG and 0 for 2 or more steps removed from LG would also work.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2004, 06:49:12 AM by BobTokyo »

Offline rreinier

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2004, 07:58:35 AM »
Still, 3 points is a heck of a lot of Virtue to substract for simple theft, if saving an entire city from destruction only yields one point...

Offline jester

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2004, 08:14:55 AM »
Of course this needs fine tuning, but it would make virtue even more contingent with gameplay and alignment.
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Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2004, 03:29:55 PM »
I thought it was established that NG people were no less good than LG people.  The only real difference is on the choas/law scale.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2004, 03:15:18 PM »
In fact, NG people are more good than LG people, because they are restricted by no law or code of behaviour. They only do that which is Good.

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2004, 03:41:59 PM »
I thought it was established that NG people were no less good than LG people. The only real difference is on the choas/law scale.

Yes. I was thinking that they would receive less of a penalty for theft because they were less concerned about the lawfulness of the ation, rather than being less concerned about the morality of the action. Sadly that re-opens the "Does Lawful mean respect for the Law" question. :)

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2004, 06:21:58 PM »
(waits for it)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2004, 09:05:03 PM »
Here's the thing:  Is the theft a means requried to achieve a good goal?  Hypothetical:  THe PC needs to kill a lich to save a town from having their souls trapped within tiny gems and made into a necklace.  Unfortunately the PC is not long out of Chateau Irenicus, and has little in the was of magical weaponry.  SO the theft becomes necessary

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2004, 09:37:52 PM »
Here's the thing: Is the theft a means requried to achieve a good goal? Hypothetical: THe PC needs to kill a lich to save a town from having their souls trapped within tiny gems and made into a necklace. Unfortunately the PC is not long out of Chateau Irenicus, and has little in the was of magical weaponry. SO the theft becomes necessary

Are you a Terry Pratchett fan at all? There was a scene in Men at Arms where Carrot (as close to a paladin as you'll find in Pratchett) breaks into the City Armory in order to equip his men. It is necessary to do so for the good of the city. When faced with the officer in charge of the Armory, Carrot bluffs the man into giving up the weapons. It is implied that had the man flat out refused to be intimidated, Carrot would have backed down. If writing a scenario where a Paladin were forced to steal in order to accomplish a greater good, that's the model I'd probably use; a true paladin might bend his principles in order to do what had to be done, but when it came right down to it he wouldn't break them.

Offline Janneia

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2004, 04:36:10 AM »
I thought it was established that NG people were no less good than LG people. The only real difference is on the choas/law scale.

Yes. I was thinking that they would receive less of a penalty for theft because they were less concerned about the lawfulness of the ation, rather than being less concerned about the morality of the action. Sadly that re-opens the "Does Lawful mean respect for the Law" question. :)

Most people are lawful good so they can get a higher starting rep? I'm always LN, OK, so I start with 10...but I remember one of the BG1 Walkthroughs, I think, telling ppl that they should be LG so their starting rep is higher...
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2004, 09:04:40 AM »
you can be a good person an a thief. LG and CG should lose virtue but no one else.
NG and still steal but not ever be evil. Theift alone will not make one evil.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2004, 08:05:32 AM »
Ding0 - I know it's impossible to check if someone pickpockets, but would it be possible to detect if the player gives a command for pickpocketing?

Just having a thought...

Offline Ieldra

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2004, 04:29:48 AM »
Ding0 - I know it's impossible to check if someone pickpockets, but would it be possible to detect if the player gives a command for pickpocketing?

Just having a thought...

Even if it is possible - the command is the same for disabling a trap. You wouldn't want Virtue hits for that, would you? ::)

Offline rreinier

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2004, 08:30:10 AM »
True, true. I'm wondering, though, if it would be able to detect who you're targeting...

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Frome Grave Robbing: Virtue Penalties for theft?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2004, 11:47:35 AM »
On the whole, checking interface commands isn't possible either, no.

 

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