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Author Topic: Scary new Virtue hit  (Read 8826 times)

Offline SixOfSpades

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Scary new Virtue hit
« on: July 04, 2004, 08:12:58 PM »
While digging through the section of the DIALOG.TLK assigned to me as part of UB, I came across this line:

@57641 = ~The death of one slave causes the entire city to shake, disrupting the machine, and destroying the rest of the slaves~

So I went into the Illithid Tunnels and tested it, to see if it was actually implemented into the game. Yes, it is, and no, there is no Virtue hit. But boy, should there ever be! To attack a helpless Innocent with no possible motivation for doing so....you couldn't have known the other slaves would die as well, but still!
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2004, 03:44:54 AM »
Quote from: SixOfSpades on July 04, 2004, 08:12:58 PM
While digging through the section of the DIALOG.TLK assigned to me as part of UB, I came across this line:

@57641 = ~The death of one slave causes the entire city to shake, disrupting the machine, and destroying the rest of the slaves~

So I went into the Illithid Tunnels and tested it, to see if it was actually implemented into the game. Yes, it is, and no, there is no Virtue hit. But boy, should there ever be! To attack a helpless Innocent with no possible motivation for doing so....you couldn't have known the other slaves would die as well, but still!
More context, please. "You couldn't know.." is very important.  ;)
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2004, 11:58:20 AM »
I think this should be punished just as much as killing one innocent. That's all you did, basically.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2004, 04:17:37 PM »
What if the PC couldn't find a way to free the slaves, so killed them to spare them from a life of illithid slavery and torture? Which I don't think is Evil... I don't think a Virtue hit is necessarily justified, since you don't know why the PC killed a slave.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2004, 04:19:28 PM »
I considered that, but the PC is out to kill the Master Brain. That would release the slaves from Illithid slavery anyhow, since all the Illithid would be dead...
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2004, 04:27:01 PM »
Is the PC out to kill the Master Brain? Or to just escape? Would the PC even know what an illithid or a Master Brain was?

The PC might not know that killing the Master Brain would free the slaves.
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Offline mcruz

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2004, 04:32:46 PM »
Quote from: Andyr on July 05, 2004, 04:17:37 PM
What if the PC couldn't find a way to free the slaves, so killed them to spare them from a life of illithid slavery and torture? Which I don't think is Evil... I don't think a Virtue hit is necessarily justified, since you don't know why the PC killed a slave.

I tend to agree with this seeing how you're releasing them from their slavery and torture, but one thing to keep in mind is that you're probably killing them without their consent (not like Rielev in Irenicus' Dungeon) so under those circumstances you're basically killing an innocent...
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Offline Kish

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2004, 04:33:44 PM »
The PC is certainly demonstrating a willingness to give up on the slaves awfully quickly, even in the best possible interpretation of his/her actions.  Find them hooked up to a mysterious machine and just slice into one of them?  If the PC doesn't know that killing the Master Brain would free them, then the PC also doesn't know that death is better than what they face anyway.  A PC who is completely ignorant of illithid has no reason to assume these humans are being tortured, rather than, say, assisted in developing psionic powers.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2004, 04:52:28 PM »
Well, you have at the time just escaped from a pit fight the illithids forced you into... And the slaves, from the avatars they are using, I'd assume are meant to look pretty bedraggled and unhappy.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2004, 04:58:00 PM »
Quote from: Andyr on July 05, 2004, 04:27:01 PM
The PC might not know that killing the Master Brain would free the slaves.
But he certainly cannot know that it won't. He can at least wait until all the Illithid are dead before doing anything irreversible.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2004, 05:02:11 PM »
Well...

Imagining I'm the PC, I've just been trekking around the Underdark. I find a cave, the entrance to the illithid city. I go in and lose consciousness, and awake to find myself a prisoner. A chat with some githyanki informs me of the mind flayers - I really want to get out of there. So, with the aid of the githyanki, I try to escape. I find the slaves and cannot communicate with them. Since I really have no desire to stay there and longer than I have to, and definitely don't want to return, I put them out of their misery. Then run for it.


EDIT: Oops, I forgot you needed to deal with the Master Brain in order to leave. My bad. :) Killing the slaves probably isn't so good, then...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 05:06:13 PM by Andyr »
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2004, 05:06:49 PM »
Okay, I suppose that there is a slight chance that the PC is really putting them out of their misery. However, he should still get the Virtue drop if he has either been in the room with that liquid you should pour into the machine or if the Gith have already left (telling you to kill all the Illithid) or if he has accepted the Drow quest and doesn't have a Beholder stalk or Kuo-Toan blood yet.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2004, 01:26:17 AM »
Quote from: rreinier on July 05, 2004, 05:06:49 PM
However, he should still get the Virtue drop if he has either been in the room with that liquid .... or if he has accepted the Drow quest and doesn't have a Beholder stalk or Kuo-Toan blood yet.
I think it's simpler just implement a straight Virtue hit for killing a helpless, unarmed Innocent. Even assuming that the PC is a moron, there are an awful lot of "Use this Device" mouse icons in that room, most of which hint at finding some kind of liquid to pour into the machines. There are also an awful lot of "Use This Device" icons in the Smelly Gack room. One must assume that a PC who goes around killing innocents before experiementing with alternatives deserves a Virtue hit.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2004, 02:13:04 AM »
But this is a roleplaying mod. The PC doesn't see any "Use This Device" icons, the player does...
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2004, 02:53:43 AM »
we are talking about the guys in the underdark right?

Anyway the only way to escape from the lair with out freeing them in the process is with the slayer. To get the control collars they wake up in the process. So if you reach the exit using ANY control collars then they are free because you already woke them up when you got the collars.
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Offline rreinier

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2004, 05:25:21 AM »
True, it IS possible to get out without freeing them. I would say that that, too, would cost you Virtue if you knew they were there...

Of course, this is getting more and more complicated. I say it's far easier to just have the player incur a Virtue hit if he kills one of them. He might be doing out of mercy, but in 99% of the cases, he won't be...
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2004, 06:25:10 AM »
Quote from: Lord Kain on July 06, 2004, 02:53:43 AM
To get the control collars they wake up in the process. So if you reach the exit using ANY control collars then they are free because you already woke them up when you got the collars.
That would be correct, except that killing the slaves activates the machine, just like waking the slaves does. No more living slaves plugged in = 4 Illithid Control Collars.

But the PC would have no way of knowing beforehand that that would work, or course.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2004, 02:12:57 PM »
he'd have no way of knowing before hand if killing the slaves activated the machine.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Scary new Virtue hit
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2004, 06:03:04 AM »
I think killing the slaves probably should incur a fairly severe Virtue hit, yes. Whacking them without really checking if there are alternatives, which there DO turn out to be, isn't very considerate.
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