Author Topic: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"  (Read 5303 times)

Offline Pirengle

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Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« on: June 28, 2004, 03:36:13 AM »
This all started when I read this thread at the FWMC fanfic forum. I'm also annoyed that one moderator's idea of "strong argumetns based on ideas and content" led to another moderator calling me a "facist troll" and still another moderator calling me a whore and a bitch. (The third moderator in question realized that the profanity might affect reputation and has since edited the post for personal posterity.) It was also brought to my attention over private message that I should not be giving input since I do not produce output, and told me exactly where I could take my useless self and my undesired criticism.

This post is to remedy that situation. It's also a general nose-thumbing; yes, I do know what the hell I'm talking about, even if fatigue or other factors prevent me from expressing that knowledge accurately or even adequately. I give you the fan fiction writer's gospel, according to me. Inaccuracies abound. Why? I'm fatigued. :P

(BE WARNED! This document contains HUGE Shadows of Amn spoilers!)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 02:50:39 PM by jcompton »
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Offline Pirengle

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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2004, 03:58:51 AM »
It is 5am, and I am fatigued. And this is a personal request. If you’re a moderator, act like one. Being a moderator, whether local or global, gives you the power to ban users, edit posts, and otherwise twerk the fora. Don’t let your absolute power corrupt you. It’s very easy to make a mess and hurt someone’s feelings with words rashly written, but it’s also very easy for moderators to play with the settings and change those words to protect themselves and their integrity, something that the average Joe Poster can’t do. (And it makes Joe Poster respect you even less.) It’s also easy to forbid certain people from playing in your sandbox if they make sand castles you don’t like. If you abuse your authority, people will realize that you have none, and take you less seriously. Please take my advice to heart, as peon to proprietors. I can say whatever the hell I want to say--I’m not in charge here. But you are. If you want even a drop of respect as a community or forum leader, you must ensure that your words earn that respect and are representative of your position as community/forum leader. Take the time to check your spelling and grammar. Blow off steam before dealing with facist trolls such as myself and give them an impartial response. Feel free to rip into such facist trolls, provided you’ve made it clear it’s coming from X the person and not X the moderator. But as long as that moderator nametag’s pinned to your name, you have to act the part. Otherwise, you’re just a little kid, reigning over a pile of sand.
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Offline seanas

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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2004, 06:36:58 AM »
hey pirengle

i've been reading fan fic for an extremely long time, mostly for personal interest but also, briefly, as a research interest, and this is one of the best summations of 'what is fanfic and how to do it' that i've read in a long while. i'm hoping you had this stored on yr pc somewhere, and you've just had to edit and post, otherwise that's one hell of a braindump!

i'm not a big fan of game-based fanfic at the best of times: you've got multiple, conflicting canons (published fiction, ingame and written rules) - always a recipe for disaster; and then there's the whole CHARNAME thing. the way games are structured - with the player as protagonist - means that the resulting fanfic usually follows a similar path, which leads inexorably to Mary-Sueism. at least with tv-based fanfic (what i tend to read more often), the write needs to justifiy a Mary-Sue, or at least work a lot harder to make them fit into the genre. with game-based fanfic, there's an open invitation to make the protagonist a Mary-Sue - in fact the author has to work *not* to make protagonist = pc = author's alter-ego.

personally, i'd like all game-based fanfic to be restricted to using ingame NPCs in their stories: there's something beneficial about being *forced* to write character. plus, it distances (to an extent) the author from their creation, so that criticism is more readily recieved. much game-based fanfic criticism (and i'm not referring specifically to BG/BGII here, but i'm sure yr aware of this) tends to either mistake critique for attack, or to limit itself to the encouraging but ultimately empty ('OMG! this is so ace!'). i see this as inherent in the genre though: games, particularly RPGs, have always encouraged the character-as-alter ego identification; the fanfic necessarily does so as well. not that this is unavoidable: i really like some of the imoen fanfic around, for example, largely because focusing on imoen rather than CHARNAME causes the author to step away from their work. and not that character-as-alter ego is always a bad thing: i'm well aware of the numbers of published authors and writers who started in fanfic, often very derivative fanfic. but my point is that i prefer non-game-based fanfic because it doesnt so readily fall to the flaws you identify.

on a critical note, you clearly *were* tired when you made the last post: yr tone has changed ( i know you say it's a personal request) and it's not too difficult for someone who's looking to misinterpret yr comments as hostile to do so. the advice is important though: i think *all* boards, on *all* topics, should have advice to moderators. something like 'you-as-moderator and you-as-poster are different people and this distinction needs to be evident' or at least 'if you wish to be idiosyncratic , that's ok as long as everyone knows; but if you wish to be impartial, you have to act that way as well'. other than that though, this is an excellent how-to guide for fanfic writing.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2004, 07:10:33 AM »
Being a moderator does not give you absolute power, and no you can't even ban people.  You have to be an admin to do that.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2004, 08:44:51 AM »
As i said on the other forum , pirengle noone edited or deleted your posts
but im sorry there is such hostility between the moderating team and you
and i still extend an olive branch

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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2004, 08:47:30 AM »
Also i did apoligise for calling you a facist but you were insulting my freinds , and i got rather upset . you should also realise i am only a moderator on the tech boards nowhere else , im not a global

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2004, 10:06:00 AM »
While composed with good attention to grammar and punctuation, I found this gospel dry and unengaging. It is unclear who the central character is and what motivates his or her actions, except perhaps fear of Pirengle.

I think that the intense monologue style shows that you might be able to pull off, say, a well-executed locked-room crime drama.
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Offline SimDing0™

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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2004, 10:40:38 AM »
Being a moderator does not give you absolute power, and no you can't even ban people.  You have to be an admin to do that.
I think it depends on the forum. I can certainly see the ban button here. I probably shouldn't try it out, though.

Offline NiGHTMARE

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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2004, 11:00:19 AM »
Hmm well we're talking about FW, and mods can't ban people there :).  It's the same over on G3.
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Offline BevH

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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2004, 12:38:12 PM »
Well, I'm going to avoid the whole moderator thing and just say this:  thanks Pirengle for the writing tips.
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2004, 12:51:04 PM »
Just reposting my quick suggestion here:

SPELLCHECK. This one gets its own blurb. I prefer a mediocre story with good spelling and grammar to a well-written story with terrible spelling and horrific grammar. I don’t care how great it might be if I can’t get past the spelling. This goes for Forgotten Realms terms as well as existing languages. Do us all a favor, download Infinity Explorer, and make sure you’ve spelled Suldanessellar correctly. You’ll just look silly if you’re writing about the elven city you can’t even spell.

This is a very important and painful topic. I suggest splitting it into "spelling", "grammar" and "Lore" however.

First stage will be the spellcheck. We all know that "spellcheck" just does not do the job. Yes, you could have accurately spelled "weather" but it just was not the right word, or the spellcheck helpfully replaced your word choice. So the second step will be grammar.

And Grammar has to be checked by "not you". I am afraid there is simply no other way to get it right. Yes, I quite often in my past was hiding myself behind "I am an ESL" excuse, but it is the root cause, not a corrective measure.

Lore - a very tough argument here. While of course spelling Gorion properly is the bestest idea, and making sure that your elven character is a child-elf if he is aged 20, diving into the deepest depths of Lore is a tricky thing. I remeber that I have heard that for many years the one of the hottest debates on LoTR was "Do balrogs have the wings?" I honestly do not think that such a detail should substract from an idea of the story. However, if you know for sure that you stray away, putting an AU sticker clearly is a good idea - and I think you have covered it elsewhere in your guide so it is just a repeat, but I think it applies to this section somewhat.

Offline Pirengle

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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2004, 01:09:00 PM »
Quote
on a critical note, you clearly *were* tired when you made the last post: yr tone has changed ( i know you say it's a personal request) and it's not too difficult for someone who's looking to misinterpret yr comments as hostile to do so.

I tossed out several personal addresses earlier. Must have been slipping as the hours wore on.

It's true that I had a few people in mind when I wrote my "personal note" post. (My Gospel is not totally finished yet.) I feel that everyone needed to see that note, hence the multiple postings. They are the thoughts I couldn't say when the topic in question got locked, and I'd be telling those same words to anyone who would listen if they didn't get posted.

I also feel it's important that everyone knows what's going on. I'm not going to let anyone, moderator or not, pretend that everyone's playing nicely in the sandbox when it's clear that nobody's happy. I'm not going to make peace by taking an olive branch. I'm going to force everyone to deal with their problems instead of pushing them aside or burying their true intentions under pretty words and petty strutting.

There's a lot of bad blood on both sides, and neither side can claim that they acted completely rational and mature. But meaningless gestures of friendship won't help anything; I have no doubt in my mind that the sniping will continue if either group is pushed too far. Posting a list of grievances and incidents on a public forum is step in the right direction. It's time everyone heard the truth about what's been happening for the past few months, no matter how ugly that truth may look. That is the route to true, lasting peace.

Now this soapbox is getting awful rickety. Don't mind me if I step down now.

Quote
i'm not a big fan of game-based fanfic at the best of times: you've got multiple, conflicting canons (published fiction, ingame and written rules) - always a recipe for disaster; and then there's the whole CHARNAME thing. the way games are structured - with the player as protagonist - means that the resulting fanfic usually follows a similar path, which leads inexorably to Mary-Sueism. at least with tv-based fanfic (what i tend to read more often), the write needs to justifiy a Mary-Sue, or at least work a lot harder to make them fit into the genre. with game-based fanfic, there's an open invitation to make the protagonist a Mary-Sue - in fact the author has to work *not* to make protagonist = pc = author's alter-ego.

I used to frequent a fantasy television forum, and liked reading Highlander and Forever Knight fanfics written by someone named "littlegreenlight". I liked them because, unlike the other fanfics, his writing read like an episode from the series. When littlegreenlight disappeared, so did I.

Fanfic.net is filled with work of varying quality where the writer wants to be a star in some other universe. FWP (and later PPG) wanted to tell a good story more or less following canon. I agree that it's easy to make <CHARNAME> a Mary Sue, but it's equally as easy to make Duncan MacLeod or Nicholas Knight into one too.

Quote
something like 'you-as-moderator and you-as-poster are different people and this distinction needs to be evident' or at least 'if you wish to be idiosyncratic , that's ok as long as everyone knows; but if you wish to be impartial, you have to act that way as well'.

That's the message I tried to write, yes.

Quote
Being a moderator does not give you absolute power, and no you can't even ban people.  You have to be an admin to do that.

Being a moderator puts you into a position of authority and power. The title, moderator, means that person moderates. He/she is an impartial judge when it comes to forum business.

Now I know I angered people when I commented that Neil was licking MG's boots. Consider the situation. I posted the only negative criticism on an "OMG MORE PLZ!!11" comment thread. Count Neil's total posts on the fanfic forum. Is it a coincidence that one of Neil's rare forum appearances came just after my comment, with an "OMG ROXXORS" comment of all things? MG's reply ("OMG TY") didn't help any. (MG also burned my britches with her "I like my work--if you don't like it, don't read it" comment, but that's a different grief for a different post.) I've shown the thread to people from the BG2 community, my college community, various other unconnected people, and many of them saw the comment as snide. (I was also chastised for my criticism, but that was from the Hollins crowd. >_<) When I expressed my unhappiness about the remark I saw as snide, I was called a bitch and a name-calling whore by Neil and a facist troll by notmrt. Neil, realizing that a forum administrator[/b] has no business calling anyone[/b] those names, changed his post to make it look less vindictive and more responsible. I appreciate the fact that notmrt had the guts to admit that he was responsible for his words, but I cannot accept his apology.

And I acted like a snot, whined and minced like a diva, and held a huge grudge. I'm not apologizing for my actions--I meant all that I did, and time isn't going to change the feelings that drove my actions.

Quote
While composed with good attention to grammar and punctuation, I found this gospel dry and unengaging. It is unclear who the central character is and what motivates his or her actions, except perhaps fear of Pirengle.

I've strapped the author to a chair and I'm hold the author at bay with a cat-o-nine tails. Meanwhile, the world wonders, what about Besyrwan?

Quote
Hmm well we're talking about FW, and mods can't ban people there.  It's the same over on G3.

Maybe posting a manifesto someplace telling exactly what the forum mods can and can't do might help alleviate further confusion.
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2004, 07:28:12 PM »
I was called a bitch and a name-calling whore by Neil and a facist troll by notmrt. Neil, realizing that a forum administrator[/b] has no business calling anyone[/b] those names, changed his post to make it look less vindictive and more responsible.


And now can we have the truth? yes I edited my post from telling you I thought your comments toward me were bang out of line

Quote
(And having the forummaster crawl out of the woodwork to lick your boot adds insult to injury, whether you put him up to it or not.)

just because I liked a peice of work to just saying you would not be banned (as you put in your post and fully expected to be because of your attack)

Quote
(That is, if I don't get banz0red for posting this.)

however I most certainly did not call you a whore or bitch.

Offline Bons

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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2004, 08:13:41 PM »
(My Gospel is not totally finished yet.) I feel that everyone needed to see that note, hence the multiple postings. They are the thoughts I couldn't say when the topic in question got locked, and I'd be telling those same words to anyone who would listen if they didn't get posted.

Thanks for posting, Pir. We've pondered moving the thread to EFCB, since it's not a story or comments on a story, and complaints/discussion about events at another forum belong in Blather, if anywhere. Because of the relevancy of a large portion of the content to fan fiction, however, I'm keeping it here for the moment. I want to talk to you via PM or chat about how we might organize the parts of the thread that are fanfic-relevant and the parts that are better suited to general discussion.

Praise and criticism: The bitterness in your gospel is its largest flaw. Can I blame you for feeling that way? No, I cannot. You have a right to your feelings under any circumstances. You also have a right to post your feelings, but I'm going to repeat my favorite fanfic forum mantra: Use Tact. It's part of the fairness doctrine I've been trying to uphold, because if sarcasm, snarking and condescension, etc. are disrespectful coming from the fanfic moderator, then they can't be acceptable coming from other posters.

My point is not to discourage people from speaking their minds. Instead, I want to repeat that there is a difference between getting your opinion off your chest aggressively and presenting that opinion in a persuasive manner. My word of criticism regarding this gospel is that the references, annoyance and frustration toward another forum detract from the merits of the information that you've compiled. Beyond the raw emotions, you've presented a good work-in-progress guide to fan fiction full of interesting and potentially useful material for the reader. The thing is, when gospel is shouted from a soapbox, just like from a corner preacher, passers-by tend to either ignore it or become argumentative. I realize the inspiration to write this was probably reactionary, but I think telegraphing that does the heart of your work a disservice here.

Quote
I used to frequent a fantasy television forum, and liked reading Highlander and Forever Knight fanfics written by someone named "littlegreenlight". I liked them because, unlike the other fanfics, his writing read like an episode from the series. When littlegreenlight disappeared, so did I.

[Self-promotion]You've never read any of my Forever Knight fan fiction, have you? *sniff* Some of it isn't complete and total crap. (Though a heap of it is.) My personal favorite is Words and Meanings. It's a flashback exploration novel focused on Vachon, told in first person with Nick Knight as the audience. So good, it lost two fanfic awards! :) [/Self-promotion]



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Offline Bons

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Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2004, 08:22:36 PM »
 
The fanfic guide portion of this thread should be here.

Everything else should appear here shortly.
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Offline neriana

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2004, 10:52:12 PM »
I would like to add a rule of my own, if I may:

Criticism of fan fiction is not criticism of you as a person. Don't take it personally, either as the writer or as a friend of the writer. Pages and pages of "OMG this story rox" are bound to bring out the snide side of anyone who disagrees. It is necessary for anyone who wants to improve their creations to take criticism in stride, no matter what their opinion of it is. If you don't want to improve your creations, then there is no reason to post on a public forum. The praise is great, but in its own way so is the criticism. It's attention, and that's what your story needs. People who criticize are giving the story more attention than people who can only think of wonderful things to say. No story is ever perfect.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 03:55:45 AM by neriana »
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Offline KIrving

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2004, 01:42:46 AM »
People who criticize are giving the story more attention than people who can only think of wonderful things to say. No story is ever perfect.
  Ouch!  What a sweeping generalization!  Hmm...I find that in order to establish whether I like something that I read, I need to be paying attention to it.  I also like to convey my appreciation of the work I read with or without criticism.  I do not believe that the occasions when I comment and criticize are more valid than when I comment with praise alone.  I know I'm giving the story my attention either way. :)   
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2004, 08:19:34 AM »
My comments of criticism:

  When I wrote several stories. I had hoped for a critique of my work that would explain all the mistakes I made and how to correct them. I became so desperate for helpful criticism that I even resorted to letting friends and family read them. The most horrifying response I got was from my sister-in-law, who said, "OMG! It sounds just like you!" As the story had dialogue from npcs, I could only reply, "OMG! It is not supposed to sound like me." The rest of the responses were ha, ha, "I would like to read more."

 For whatever reason, nobody wanted to criticize the story, in the case of my sister-in-law, she just graduated with a master's in creative writing, my mother is very educated and has written many things over her lifetime, and my brother is no slouch, and has written several published articles. I mention this in order to show that my family is more than qualified to critique and improve anything that I could write, and they could do it without much effort.

  To say that I was disappointed in their lack of response would be a mild understatement. Later, I realized that I was being lazy in looking for someone else to pick out the (many) flaws in my story. I realized that if I was going to improve my story I would have to get off my butt and make an effort to improve the story. I also realized that the reader's pov was very helpful. If someone says, "I really liked this sentence," or "I thought that was funny," or "Why oranges?" or simply "I liked the story," the writer can learn from those comments.

 It takes a certain amount of effort for me to read a work and then point out flaws. What I try and do is focus on the positives and give the writer examples of what I liked. If there is a flaw that I can fix or suggest a fix than I will do that. To be a good editor is difficult, to make a valid critique is a lot of work and I don't think a writer can expect brilliant and incisive comments on their work.

 As to a negative response from a reader, well, they do have a right to express their opinion, and if you post your work on a public forum, then the writer should be prepared for any response, even, "OMG! This so sucks! I beg you to never write again!" However the writer has every right to respond with negativity in return or to disagree.

 I think if a writer has a specific concern about their story then why not ask a question in the preface? A specific question, for example, "How does the reader find my characterization of Valygar?" or "Punctuation is not my strong point, does anyone have any suggestions on how I might improve?" I think a writer would find a greater response from their readers and possibly some really good advice.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 10:51:25 PM by Regullus »

Offline jcompton

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2004, 08:49:30 AM »
I think if a writer has a specific concern about their story then why not ask a question in the preface? A specific question, for example, "How does the reader find my characterization of Valygar?" or "Punctuation is not my strong point, does anyone have any suggestions on how I might improve?" I think a writer would find a greater response from their readers and possibly some really good advice.

Mmmm. I think this is a better move when you're showing the story specifically to a person or a small group. Like, showing it to someone you consider a better Valygar writer than yourself. "Yeah, look, you're probably going to think that bit with Valygar and the Fruit Loops is weird, but what do YOU think he would say there?"

The trouble with prefacing it for public consumption with "I know X is bad" is that a lot of people end up turning that into, essentially "Oh, I know this whole story is bad" and either way you risk well-meaning knee-jerk "Nooooo it was fabulous that was in fact the most fabulous part!" which is really just another form of "more please!" Rather than being actual criticism.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with hoping your audience will like the story despite what you consider to be its flaws. I know that some bits of Kelsey are weaker than others, but I don't put at the top of the README "Look, I know LTs A, B, and C, and banters X, Y, and Z really aren't all that terrific, but hopefully it won't spoil your enjoyment of the mod too much!" No, I hope that you like A, B, and C or X, Y, and Z more than I do, or at least that you'll just slog through and that it won't ruin the enjoyment too much.
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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2004, 10:22:44 AM »
Mmmm. I think this is a better move when you're showing the story specifically to a person or a small group.

JC is absolutely right. The best way to have the review you want is to have private reading of your file in exchage for you reading the reviewer's texts when it is understood that you are looking for every single thing a person sees interesting or needs correcting/expanded upon/is unclear etc. Do not forget that it takes a few hours to review a few pages of text, especially if reviewer puts suggestions down. The small group works even better because the story goes through sequential reviews and everyone has invested interest in cross-reviewing.

And here is a humorous bit (it is not serious, not all-inclusive, and above all I do not want anyone to get offended, and the grain of truth in it is small):

How to translate this comment submitted for your fan-fiction:

OMG! That's GREAT! Write MORE please! I CANNOT WAIT!

 Check the author of the comment's (AoC) credentials:

IF:

AoC is a top dog of the forum and runs Chapter 136 of the Story #3. Translation: look, I am doing my job and growing my own fan base. Wanna join?

AoC posted the Chapter 1 in 639 words a week ago... Autor's Note is about 200 words and describes the piece as the beginning of a monumental and epic saga. Translation: I thought I was a genius, but the 1007 comments confirming that has not come, so I figured that if I do like everyone else, I might get someone to at least read it... Please, please, please comment on my fiction...

AoC has never posted (posted thrice) before but is registered for 2 years on the board. Translation: I actually really liked it.

AoC has never posted before and registered yesterday Translation: OH! I am new! I can post! Uhm, so you wrote a story ei? CEWL!

AoC has never posted before and registered yesterday and is your friend/relative Translation: Whatever you got yourself into, I am sticking with you!

AoC has posted 20 stories about the same character that you are writing your ff about Translation: Let's see if you can beat me, you filthy newcomer!

AoC commented on every story that mentioned the same character you are writing your ff about. Translation: I do not really care 'bout your writting but that character is sooooo hot, I would read a train schedule if there is a rumour that his/her name is mentioned somewhere. So when do they have sex?

AoC is a moderator: Translation: Gosh, another one without a single comment for a week, and I absolutely have no time to read it.

AoC is an author of a fiction you have commented on 30 min ago: Translation: THANK YOU! OH, THANK YOU! Let's do it again!

AoC had been someone whose side you took in the Great Flame Wars of 2003 on the Highly Important Issue (HII) Translation:  I pay my debts. BTW, we are still together on that HII, right?

AoC is from a forum where all stories are about beautiful 15 yo princesses in distress being assialled by orcs and saved by manfull elves. Your story is about a dwarf who ridicules manfull elves and ignores an underaged princess in favour of a saucy gnomish wench and your story was spell checked. Trice. Translation: I am having an awakening experince... I am not sure if it is good or bad thing yet, but if you indeed write more...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 11:35:31 AM by Domi »

Offline Regullus

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2004, 12:17:11 PM »
  @JC

  Probably a great suggestion however two problems:

1) My Valygar or Kelsey expert is beyond my reach. In other words JC and Domi, or anyone else for that matter.

2) Certain amount of work is involved in establishing such a network. Also, I would want a better writer than myself to read my work and why would a writer better than I am be interested in my input?

JC is absolutely right. The best way to have the review you want is to have private reading of your file in exchage for you reading the reviewer's texts when it is understood that you are looking for every single thing a person sees interesting or needs correcting/expanded upon/is unclear etc. Do not forget that it takes a few hours to review a few pages of text, especially if reviewer puts suggestions down. The small group works even better because the story goes through sequential reviews and everyone has invested interest in cross-reviewing.

And here is a humorous bit (it is not serious, not all-inclusive, and above all I do not want anyone to get offended, and the grain of truth in it is small):

How to translate this comment submitted for your fan-fiction:

OMG! That's GREAT! Write MORE please! I CANNOT WAIT!

 Check the author of the comment's (AoC) credentials:

Quote

  Very funny. ;D

  However there is just the reader that enjoys a writer's creativity in spite of flaws that may or may not be present. Also reading other's people's work can be educational.  In RL if an author recieved a fan letter or letter of complaint they would not sit there and complain that the comments were not acceptably helpful. I think most people are grateful that someone took the time to read their story and think it is nice that someone liked their work.  I do think it is unreasonable to expect a reader to take the time and effort to seriously criticize a writer's work.

  Here is a question for JC and Domi:

  Do you like to hear people's opinions on the Kelsey and Valygar mods?

 @JC specifically:  What is it like to read stories about Kelsey? Do you like it or do you find it odd. Does the character's voice ring true to you or does it always sound slightly off key? Are you insulted that Kelsey has fanfiction or are you pleased?

Domi

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2004, 01:48:30 PM »
Quote
  @JC

  Probably a great suggestion however two problems:

1) My Valygar or Kelsey expert is beyond my reach. In other words JC and Domi, or anyone else for that matter.

2) Certain amount of work is involved in establishing such a network. Also, I would want a better writer than myself to read my work and why would a writer better than I am be interested in my input?

I think both troubles boil down to networking. It is a difficult thing but every minute
you spend on it usually pays back. I'd diasgree about the better writer point. It does not take one to give valuable feedback and notice troublesome spots.

  Very funny. ;D

  However there is just the reader that enjoys a writer's creativity in spite of flaws that may or may not be present. Also reading other's people's work can be educational.  In RL if an author recieved a fan letter or letter of complaint they would not sit there and complain that the comments were not acceptably helpful. I think most people are grateful that someone took the time to read their story and think it is nice that someone liked their work.  I do think it is unreasonable to expect a reader to take the time and effort to seriously criticize a writer's work.


Undoubtfully true. You put your hat on the ground as much in the hopes for a penny as for a dime. But it is darn nice when a comment is personal. The most treasured comment I ever got was "After reading it I started to paly the game with Kivan" 

  Here is a question for JC and Domi:

  Do you like to hear people's opinions on the Kelsey and Valygar mods?


Hoped JC will pick it up first, because I have very convoluted, rather boring and unclear answer. It is also honest, but, again, not meant as an offence or critisism to people who think differently.

Valygar is an exception for me. It was a compromise, and it was both ordered by Vlad and written as a mod for one person (Domi); I like it that way, and while I am glad that other people enjoy it and have no problems when people dismiss it, I do not really look for comments on it, unless it is the newly added material. As far as I am concerned it's done, finished and there is nothing I would want to do to change it. 

All other things - yes, I am looking for comments, some more, some less depending on how much I am confident in a particular piece of work. Dynaheir will be a finger twister, because I failed to produce a succesful romance for a male protagonist once before.

So, I enjoy comments, try to act upon some of them and never let myself to forget one simple truth: the "happy times" story that netted me the greatest amount of comments EVAR was a song-fiction named "A Lulliby for an Elven Voice and  a Fluite", written from Kivan's prespective for a female protagonist that described the dreams of every party member (yes, THAT bad). The "stormy times" story that netted the highest harves was either Seventeen and No Wings or While You Were Away: Valygar - both atrocious and heartless bits written in the name of stopping character bashing, not for love.

Imo, if one better think twice if s/he considers going into modding/ff writting for the sake of being loved.

Offline jcompton

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2004, 02:48:41 PM »
1) My Valygar or Kelsey expert is beyond my reach. In other words JC and Domi, or anyone else for that matter.

I don't fully understand this. Are you saying my posted hourly rates are too high? :)

Quote
2) Certain amount of work is involved in establishing such a network. Also, I would want a better writer than myself to read my work and why would a writer better than I am be interested in my input?

It is true that popularity can be a scourge, but that doesn't mean you can't ask. Just don't get too miffed if someone tells you "I can't do more than skim it" or you don't hear back from them right away or something.

Quote
Do you like to hear people's opinions on the Kelsey and Valygar mods?

Oh, yes, absolutely. While there are some modders out there who say "I only mod for my own enjoyment," and a perhaps slightly smaller number who are telling the truth when they say that, I am not one of those people. I very actively want my mods to be downloaded and reacted to. More downloads and more reactions = more satisfaction (= more modding, incidentally... so, no, I am not immune to "more please!")

Do I prefer when they're positive opinions? Well, yes, because that on the whole means that everyone's having fun, and because I like to feel that I've accomplished something good. Does that mean I expected that he'd be everybody's favorite NPC or romance or whatever? Not at all. There are negative commentaries on Kelsey that still make me feel that I've accomplished my goal (don't find him dreamier than Anomen? Oh well, at least you had a choice!), some that have influenced changes, some that make me wish I'd done things differently from the beginning, and some that I reject.

Quote
@JC specifically:  What is it like to read stories about Kelsey? Do you like it or do you find it odd. Does the character's voice ring true to you or does it always sound slightly off key? Are you insulted that Kelsey has fanfiction or are you pleased?

It's on the whole quite pleasing and was something I looked forward to. I've never been "insulted" by a Kelsey story*. Some stories have captured elements of Kelsey better than others, of course, but that's true of any character.

I find it very interesting when people use Kelsey as a background character. There was more than one story on the Attic which basically began with "and our protagonist leaves Kelsey at home to go seek more adventure in the post-TOB era and we never hear from him again," and then of course there's Kirwond's Death and Taxes, where Kelsey is central, but not exactly present. So he's really been everywhere.

* - No, not even QA's infamous Anomen interludes.
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline neriana

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2004, 03:50:43 PM »
People who criticize are giving the story more attention than people who can only think of wonderful things to say. No story is ever perfect.
  Ouch!  What a sweeping generalization!  Hmm...I find that in order to establish whether I like something that I read, I need to be paying attention to it.  I also like to convey my appreciation of the work I read with or without criticism.  I do not believe that the occasions when I comment and criticize are more valid than when I comment with praise alone.  I know I'm giving the story my attention either way. :)   

Which, no story is ever perfect? It's not, ever. Not even if it's written by Flannery O'Connor. Not even if it's written by Jason Compton ;D. OK, maybe if it's written by O'Henry. I still prefer people who find both good and bad things to say to people who can only say "OMG mor plz!" Maybe that's just me. I posted this mostly for writers rather than critics, though. People seem to get ripped to shreds somewhat often by authors and authors' friends for daring to criticize fan fiction, and it's not cool. And pages and pages of fluffy "OMG luv yr story can I have yr babies plz" gross me out. Sorry.

Regullus: A writer doesn't necessarily need to be better than yourself to constructively criticize your work. A person doesn't even need to be a writer to do it. I am convinced that writing and editing are two different disciplines, and neither is superior to the other.
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Comments on "The Gospel According To Pirengle"
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2004, 11:53:56 PM »
Regullus: A writer doesn't necessarily need to be better than yourself to constructively criticize your work. A person doesn't even need to be a writer to do it.

 I misspoke or mis-wrote. I do not believe that anyone has to be a writer to criticize my work or any work. Or a better writer than I am to criticize my work. I do think any person may have a valid and interesting comment or criticism.

 I simply meant that if I became involved in a small workshop of writers, I would like to have writers better than I am, for selfish reasons. I would like to be able to observe good writers at work. I would like to study their processes, and various methods used to develop a story.

 
[I don't fully understand this. Are you saying my posted hourly rates are too high? :)
                  Yes. >:(

  @Domi and JC - Thanks for your interesting answers!