Author Topic: Grave Robbing  (Read 29584 times)

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2004, 11:48:56 PM »
I just came up with what I think is a good explanation of a compromise, although this may not be the case, since I'm running on four hours sleep, and that was a long long time ago.

Anyways, I tend to agree with some of the arguments that grave-robbing from tombs of the "innocent" is not virtuous.  It's like stealing from the rich and keeping it for yourself.  Sure, the rich may not've been using it, but that doesn't mean it belongs to anyone who has the means to take it.

But Virtue works on a relatively large-scale... uh, scale.  A petty pickpocket might be TN.  He steals stuff for a living, so his virtue should, theoretically, drop continuously, making him NE.  He doesn't murder people or anything, doesn't beat his wife, doesn't do any truly abominable stuff, but he's still a thief.  I don't see people thinking he's as diabolical as Irenicus because he steals stuff.

On the other hand, if a Paladin steals something in such a manner, he'd fall, yeah?  A priest of Lathander would probably lose his granted powers, too.  Huh.  Okay, my idea has morphed from what it originally was (thievery incurs no virtue penalties, because it's not large-scale enough to be warranted), to something entirely different: Certain virtue hits only drop you into the "neutral" scale of things.  If you steal something and are good aligned, you take a virtue hit.  Once you've fallen to neutral, you only lose virtue by doing truly nasty things, like murder, rape, and graffiti.

Sounds like a lot of work for very little gain, though.  First of all I'm not sure how Virtue's implemented, exactly, so I don't know how hard it'd be to add separate types of crimes, and second of all, I forget what's second, and now the weariness has kicked in and I'm fading fast.
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Offline neriana

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2004, 11:55:22 PM »
Ah, they're dead, that makes it okay.  I mean, the fact that it's tucked away in a tomb is irrelevant... the fact that it has to have been purposely put there and not on sale is irrelevant... the fact that the family of the deceased would have a greater claim to anything than you would is irrelevant... the fact that they may have stated in a will they wished to be buried with this item is irrrelevant...

Ah, but I forget, they're dead, and you got there first, so that's all right then.

Honestly, is this forum just having a stupid attack or something?

Apparently it is, when someone can't distinguish between the rights of the living and -- dead people are dead! If their families wanted their possessions they wouldn't have stuffed them in a tomb. Dead people are objects. They aren't PEOPLE, they aren't even animals. They have no motivations, no brain patterns, no emotions, no thoughts, no nothing because corpses are things. You're talking about the rights of objects here. It makes no sense.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2004, 12:24:22 AM »
No.  He's talking about respecting those "objects"; and, in my case, giving them the reverence they deserve.

(and am I just babbling to myself?)  Why are you honing in on the theft (THEFT) of objects from objects.  Surely the symbolic has a place in this arguement.  Is it selective ..reading? ..disrupted thought patterns?  Why is it okay to steal from a grave??  Would you do it in real life?

Where did that moral compass go?  And I am now completely depressed that I have to try and justify, in words, why grave robbing is so amoral.  :(

(edit: "amoral" at best)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2004, 04:29:35 PM by Cybersquirt »
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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2004, 12:38:36 AM »
Beyond a certain period of age, as I understand it, the property/item isn't yours anymore. Let's say a person owning a house dies. House not been used, no living relatives. You move in. A crime? Not virtuous? Depends on who you ask.
It's like saying a stone has feelings.
It gets even more ridiculous the further back you put it. Should you use Foebane? It isn't even yours. Better return it to Suldanessellar.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2004, 12:43:47 AM »
oh, for ____'s sake.  Different religions have different beliefs and codes, but within each, they are not flexible.
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Offline jester

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2004, 08:33:05 AM »
I agree with you on the grave robbing, but I am saying that theft is still theft, so the Horn of Valhalla and Ras (IIRC the sword from the Crypt King) should not be treated diffrently. Also there should be a virtue hit for anything you steal for MaeVar or the Horn in Brynnlaw. You take it. It is not yours. Boom. There goes your paladin. Besides a paladin would not engage in grave robbing anyways.  ;)


mmmh righteous...thorns you say. This reminds me... ::)
Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

(Funny sidenote on this here: http://www.webspawner.com/users/ezekielpulp/)
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Offline nurgles_herald

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2004, 10:23:24 AM »
Apparently it is, when someone can't distinguish between the rights of the living and -- dead people are dead! If their families wanted their possessions they wouldn't have stuffed them in a tomb. Dead people are objects. They aren't PEOPLE, they aren't even animals. They have no motivations, no brain patterns, no emotions, no thoughts, no nothing because corpses are things. You're talking about the rights of objects here. It makes no sense.

Oh, yes!  Of course!  Now I remember!  Dead people are objects!

Well, I suppose because it's sociably acceptable (in most circles) for people to use sex toys, why not go dig up your neighbors dead body and f*ck it 'til you die in turn?  After all, if your girlfriend can use a dildo, why can't you "use" your friend's mom's corpse?

Really, neriana.  Let's pay some respect to the dead, even if their final request was a bit silly.  Though someone probably won't care about whether or not they have their wedding ring on after they die, they probably will when they were alive.  Because their dream in life was to exist dead with their ring on (or their bathrobe, or whatever), wouldn't you be honoring their life by not defiling their grave?
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2004, 10:24:40 AM »
Where is it sensible to draw the line? Do we treat all skeletons we dig up with respect, or is there a certain time frame within which you have to respect the dead?

Offline jester

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2004, 11:56:16 AM »
Quote
Well, I suppose because it's sociably acceptable (in most circles) for people to use sex toys, why not go dig up your neighbors dead body and f*ck it 'til you die in turn?  After all, if your girlfriend can use a dildo, why can't you "use" your friend's mom's corpse?

And the argument contained therein was what exactly? A virtue hit for necrophilia?
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Offline nurgles_herald

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2004, 04:37:34 PM »
Quote
Well, I suppose because it's sociably acceptable (in most circles) for people to use sex toys, why not go dig up your neighbors dead body and f*ck it 'til you die in turn?  After all, if your girlfriend can use a dildo, why can't you "use" your friend's mom's corpse?

And the argument contained therein was what exactly? A virtue hit for necrophilia?

If, based on the assumption that neriana proposes in which dead people are objects, then necrophilia wouldn't be necrophilia.  It would be self-fulfilment.  In order to actually understand my post, please read neriana's post above mine.  The argument contained therein was that dead people aren't objects, or necrophilia wouldn't be so socialy unacceptable.  It is true that my post was disturbing, but please attempt to think.   :P
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2004, 04:46:14 PM »
(Can we please stop entertaining the most shocking 'exceptions to the rule' or word-play games or whatever that was?  It would have been sufficient to say that if dead people were only objects, then necrophelia wouldn't exist - aka, what you just said.  :-[)

I agree with you on the grave robbing, but I am saying that theft is still theft, so the Horn of Valhalla and Ras (IIRC the sword from the Crypt King) should not be treated diffrently. Also there should be a virtue hit for anything you steal for MaeVar or the Horn in Brynnlaw. You take it. It is not yours. Boom. There goes your paladin. Besides a paladin would not engage in grave robbing anyways.  ;)
But, stealing the horn is preceeded by agreeing to go along with Saemon's plan.  imo, Any self-respecting Paladin would not go along with Saemon's plan after what he pulled on them - and, to add insult to injury, if they do (go along with his plan) he drops the stolen blade in their pocket and 'turns you in' to the Sahuigan [sp?] underscoring the ..humiliation.

I never play Paladins because they are ..supposed to be beholden to a set of unyielding ideals, but theft.. my neutral characters, even my good theif, has no problem with stealing from most (living) people; only my evil characters would steal from the poor.  My neutral/good characters would need a damn good reason to steal from the dead; even my evil characters (CE/CN being the only exception) would be ..uneasy.  Justice?  Morality?  Common-sense?  Virtue?  Probably a bit of each.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2004, 04:49:14 PM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2004, 05:00:33 PM »
Where is it sensible to draw the line? Do we treat all skeletons we dig up with respect, or is there a certain time frame within which you have to respect the dead?
Which quests, exactly, take you into the tombs.  Do any require that you open the tombs?  I honestly cannot recall any but Korgans.  Think of the dialogues associated with that one.  "Sure, I'll help you plunder.." or "I need to raise a lot of money.." and afterwards, you're immediately presented with the option to drop Korgan.  Like I edited my earlier post to reflect - grave robbing is amoral AT BEST.

Imo, there is no time frame on that set of bones.  Sure the tombs are there, but just because they're there doesn't mean we should go in and loot them all.  There's lots of innocents walking around - do we just arbitrarily kill them because they are there?  No.  Or, at least, not unless we are evil.

Museums: The greater good.

Do any quests, taking you into the tombs, meet that criteria of being 'for the greater good'?

(edit) Theft deals more with Law, which is why I tried to stear clear of that "angle".  I'm not a lawful person - I hate law, in fact; my approach, in all things, has been more one of common sense and spirituality/morality. (/edit)

Virtue defines what is right and wrong.  What is right and wrong?  I'll conceed that it depends on what your PC believes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2004, 05:05:08 PM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2004, 05:01:16 PM »
Grave robbing is a non-virtuous act, no matter how you dress it up ('artefact for my museum' doesn't really cut it). Yes, dead people have no feelings, but as Cybersquirt said, it is a symbolic form of respect not to disturb them. Otherwise we would not have funerals for our loved ones (though yes, funerals are as much for the attendees as for the star).

An important quality of virtue is respect and an appreciation of symbolism - otherwise you're just going through the motions of goodness without actually appreciating why they are good; and the act of avoiding evil is just because you want to stay out of jail, not because you are virtuous. In other words, I am not sure if pragmatism (he's dead, so I can take it!) and virtue go together.

However, it would make roleplaying a Paladin extremely difficult in the context of the game.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2004, 05:05:15 PM by cliffette »

Offline cliffette

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2004, 05:03:48 PM »
Museums: The greater good.

Heh.. it is highly dependent on your view... Taking things from graves for study purposes is ok to me, provided that it is returned after you extract all the info you can from it. Then again, how do we know when all the information has been taken from it?

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2004, 05:09:18 PM »
Heh-heh.. well, I've always been the trusting sort, so I tend to trust that those archaeologists are acting from the stand-point of gaining knowledge (which is always a good thing, imo).  They don't deal, strictly, with corpses though some are bound to be found; blah, blah. 

It's a valid, and tricky, exception.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2004, 05:12:29 PM »
It's a grey area. :)
I would prefer to see a real egyptian casket in a museum than a photo or replica of one, for instance, so I'm not particularly virtuous. My first response was not actually to your post - we must have posted fairly close together. :)

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2004, 05:25:44 PM »
Heh-heh.. well, I've always been the trusting sort, so I tend to trust that those archaeologists are acting from the stand-point of gaining knowledge (which is always a good thing, imo).  They don't deal, strictly, with corpses though some are bound to be found; blah, blah. 

It's a valid, and tricky, exception.
Was in response to your response about "museums: greater good". <goes to take a break from speed posting now>  ;)

Yes, it's a grey area.  Good thing our adventuring party is not a group of archaeologists (before someone tries that angle  :P)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2004, 05:28:38 PM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline St. Josephine

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2004, 05:54:40 PM »
Having been involved in quite a few archaelogical digs, I can safely say that the difference between RL archaelogy and this game is that no one is absonding with artifacts and using them to smite their enemies in RL.  ;D

Most countries have laws against that, anyway.  The artifacts have to be used for knowledge, not for personal gain, and cannot be sold to enrich any one person.
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Offline jester

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2004, 06:04:44 PM »
@ cliffette: Otherwise we would not have funerals for our loved ones

I lean towards the thought that the rites of passage are as much or even more for the living than for the dead.

I guess the Pharaos also where buried under the assumption that they would rest in peace for eternity. My fav quote was that they (past archeologists) defiled (of course they called it salvaged in the real quote) most graves so that grave robbers (sic!) would not do it.

Another angle would be that anything that is not a quest item and not a loot from a dead enemy would include a virtue hit. Graves would be included, but not overemphasized like the initial proposal was.


Hehe ....and Sim would have to code it all. :P
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2004, 06:27:41 PM »
I guess the Pharaos also where buried under the assumption that they would rest in peace for eternity. My fav quote was that they (past archeologists) defiled (of course they called it salvaged in the real quote) most graves so that grave robbers (sic!) would not do it.
I may have seen the documentary from which that quote originated - it was quite disturbing to see the skulls of the dead laying all over the place.  But yes, they were buried under the assumption that their corpses would remain undisturbed as I thought it was well-known that they believed in the after-life; there's a very real difference between stealing those artifacts and pawning/selling them and taking/stealing those artifacts to learn about their culture and, subsequently, put them on display (I happen to think the artifacts should go back, but once they're found they are vulnerable/bound to be looted; let's be realistic about it).  However, our PC is neither an archaeologist nor a curator.

I like your idea, though, Jester.  ..and maybe Virtue should be as complex as it really is in life.

edit: Besides, it's not like there's only one grave in the entire game - there's a whole area, and subareas, of them.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2004, 06:29:28 PM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2004, 06:32:40 PM »
(just notices Kish's ..uh ..noticable absence from this "debate".)
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2004, 06:50:19 PM »
An important quality of virtue is respect and an appreciation of symbolism - otherwise you're just going through the motions of goodness without actually appreciating why they are good; and the act of avoiding evil is just because you want to stay out of jail, not because you are virtuous. In other words, I am not sure if pragmatism (he's dead, so I can take it!) and virtue go together.
  Very well said.  My definition of Virtue starts with pragmatism, but goes on from there to incorporate other factors - not the least of which is the system of belief (aka religion) the PC is following. 

(That's why I shouldn't speed post, because I gloss things and I completely glossed over this.  ::))

Quote
However, it would make roleplaying a Paladin extremely difficult in the context of the game.
How so?  Religion is specific, but it would definitely make coding a nightmare.
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Offline Quitch

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2004, 07:06:04 AM »
To me, all this "dead people are a symbol" crap doesn't matter to me.  Simply fact is you're going into a place that isn't yours, taking something that isn't yours, and all the while you know that there's a good chance that someone else out there has a rightful claim to said item, or that it was the wish of that person to have the item put in this place.  The item didn't get in the tomb by itself, there is a reason it's there.  It's not like a coin on the street or in a barrel which might have fallen there.

What this does reveal is the flaw of the current virtue system whereby your current alignment and virtue have no effect on any penalties or gains you get later.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2004, 07:30:53 AM »
@ cliffette: Otherwise we would not have funerals for our loved ones

I lean towards the thought that the rites of passage are as much or even more for the living than for the dead.


True, on second thought. However, the fact that we don't recycle gravesites 100 years on when the relatives who most benefit are all dead (we don't, do we?) points to some sort of symbolic respect for the life they once had.

Quote
How so?  Religion is specific, but it would definitely make coding a nightmare.
I meant from a general, non-deity-specific pov. It would be hard to roleplay a paladin, as you would be forced to make money the hard way- by completing quests and gaining the rewards that way. Looting the corpses of those you killed (even against your desire to do so) is merely an extension of grave robbing, as somebody pointed out before.

And Qutch makes a good point, though I still think symbolism is an important component in virtue.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2004, 05:22:43 PM »
True, on second thought. However, the fact that we don't recycle gravesites 100 years on when the relatives who most benefit are all dead (we don't, do we?) points to some sort of symbolic respect for the life they once had.
No, we don't.  When (most commonly highway) construction will interfere with graves, they (the graves) must be relocated.  It's out of RESPECT that this is done.

I figured you thought the symbolism was "crap" Quitch, that's why I wasn't asking you - I knew early on that we were debating this from 2 different angles.  ;)

But if dead people aren't symbolic of the life they lead, then they are just objects.  Yes, it is still theft, but then so is the scenario in ToB - the woman stealing from the guards (?) to feed her children.  There's a vast diffence.

edit: And how virtuous is it to let those guards (thugs) kill her for that theft?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2004, 05:25:02 PM by Cybersquirt »
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