Author Topic: Grave Robbing  (Read 21797 times)

Offline Quitch

  • Perfection
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
  • Making the world a better place for evil
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2004, 10:37:21 AM »
You are taking an object that isn't yours.  This is theft, this is illegal, this should result in a virtue hit.
Past: Ascension
Present: Return to Windspear
Future: Imoen Relationship
"Perfection has no deadline"

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2004, 10:39:18 AM »
Whose is it? And is it really any worse than looting the De'Arnise keep or wherever in passing?

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2004, 10:49:05 AM »
..is not a religion.

bah - atheism is not a religion.  It's missing the required object of worship.  ;)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2004, 10:51:35 AM »
Why does that matter? Religion does not dictate whether something is good or evil.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2004, 11:06:31 AM »
but it does determine the morality.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2004, 11:10:04 AM »
Um. Why does it?

There are practical problems for a start. Which religion has sovereignty? One might say eating certain types of meat is immoral while the others don't. Who is right?

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2004, 11:13:49 AM »
Okay - I'm a leetle too tired to finish this, but I'll start it:

Meat has what to do with grave-robbing again?  And this is FR.. I'm fairly certain that the FR dieties could care less whether you ate the cow or its dung.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2004, 11:16:16 AM »
Meat has exactly as much to do with grave robbing as religion does. Just because some person's religion says that something is sinful, that does not mean that it IS without question immoral. I need reasons beyond "religion says so".

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2004, 12:38:19 PM »
Without grave robbing many museums would be empty.

Religion never had anything against desecrating graves of another faith. RP a paladin and you wouldn't do it, if not for that worshipper of Talos that rests here in pieces. Hell, even his god wouldn't want him to rest in peace, go get his stuff, tinhead.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2004, 03:27:20 PM »
The only way grave robbing is immoral in my opinion is when someone takes artifacts and knowledge away from future generations (and museums) by stealing from a grave and selling to private collectors or melting down the gold. But I can't see this applying to FR.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline Quitch

  • Perfection
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
  • Making the world a better place for evil
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2004, 04:20:19 PM »
Whose is it? And is it really any worse than looting the De'Arnise keep or wherever in passing?

Whose it is is irrelevant, it's not yours, and since it's kept in Crypts it's someone elses property as well.  This is theft, and of course it's worse.  The items you take in the crypt may well aid in completion of a quest you were asked to carry out by the owner, that's a ridiculous comparison.

You wander into a crypt inhabited by the dead who are buried with their posessions and you leave with them.  It's theft, simple as that really.  Goodness, this is hardly one of the more challenging or thought provoking situations, and I'm amazed it's causing you so much trouble.
Past: Ascension
Present: Return to Windspear
Future: Imoen Relationship
"Perfection has no deadline"

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2004, 04:52:49 PM »
Dead people can't own anything, they're dead.

For something to be wrong in the context of "virtue", it has to hurt someone else. There may be a circumstance or two in FR, like the little halfling boy who needs his teddy bear to rest, in which it would be wrong to take an object that could help a ghost or something. But the vast majority of dead people have gone somewhere else and they don't care about the material world; and if they do, relieving them of that worry would probably be the kindest thing.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2004, 06:26:45 PM »
As Katherine Hepburn, who told their heirs to sell off all her stuff, once allegedly said: Nobody likes stuff, everybody likes money. I would not go so far to say that personal property is theft, but after your demise, as put forward above, you should really let go.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline SixOfSpades

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Male
    • Volothamp's Comeuppance
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2004, 02:59:13 AM »
It's perfectly sensible to say "You can't take it with you" and ask your relatives to sell your clothes and keep the casket closed--as long as that's your decision. It is not OK to impose that same unattachment to material things on someone else, especially when there's very little they can say about the matter. If Deadman Joe wanted to be buried with his boots on, then removing them, even after he has no earthly use for them anymore, is denying him his eternal rest. Why do you think Revenants are so grumpy all the time?

I'm of the opinion that taking things from graves is all right provided it's done for reasons other than personal gain: Samia's purported intent of historical research on King Strohm III, for instance, or the aforementioned borrowing of the gear of some historic warrior to defeat some danger that threatens the land (and then putting the gear back), or for study. Storing relics in a museum, though, is of dubious morality if their original owner would miss them--making facsimiles and putting the actual relics back where they came from is the best bet.  I also believe that if the person has been dead for so long that nobody even remembers who was entombed there, their attachment to this earth has faded so much that their former possessions are pretty much up for grabs.

Now that I look back on that last sentence, I just justified the almost comlete lack of Virtue hits for looting the Graveyard District, since the only tomb with a name on it is Jeeves's. So I'm going to have to clarify my ideals through the lens of BG, and say that taking stuff from people like Kangaxx, the Crypt King, and Bob the Lich (in the Crooked Crane) is all good, but there's really no way to feel morally righteous about nabbing the Staff of Curing.

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2004, 04:00:54 AM »
Aha, the plot is thinning! :P
By museums I of course meant the countries to which historically the loot erm heritage belongs. Europeans take note. I always felt that Daystar was only hidden in the Crooked Crane, since it is not in the tomb, but in a nearby chest. The Improved Crypt King is such a handful for low level parties that you really earned the blade grave robbing or not.

I still fail to see the difference between looting the house with the Horn in the Bridge district and any of the graves.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2004, 04:11:26 PM »
Dead people have no will, no choice, no anything. They're dead. A bunch of bones and dust. Corpses are objects. Imposing your will on a dead "person" is like imposing your will on a hat. Someone who is already dead cannot be hurt.

If, in the FR world, a particular person is a ghost or whatever who believes s/he needs an object for eternal rest, then taking that object if it is not necessary to you as a living person may be wrong.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline Quitch

  • Perfection
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
  • Making the world a better place for evil
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2004, 05:52:07 PM »
Ah, they're dead, that makes it okay.  I mean, the fact that it's tucked away in a tomb is irrelevant... the fact that it has to have been purposely put there and not on sale is irrelevant... the fact that the family of the deceased would have a greater claim to anything than you would is irrelevant... the fact that they may have stated in a will they wished to be buried with this item is irrrelevant...

Ah, but I forget, they're dead, and you got there first, so that's all right then.

Honestly, is this forum just having a stupid attack or something?
Past: Ascension
Present: Return to Windspear
Future: Imoen Relationship
"Perfection has no deadline"

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2004, 07:09:09 PM »
You're in the City of Coin for BG2:SOA, and Trying to stave off an invasion and the attendant pillage and plunder in TOB...
Between the shady criminals selling their wares, the bribe-able guards, the foppish nobles who won't help save De'Arnise keep, the wizards who want to send someone to their death, and a place for the insane that does no rehabilitation?
come off it already...

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2004, 07:48:06 PM »
Ah, they're dead, that makes it okay.  I mean, the fact that it's tucked away in a tomb is irrelevant... the fact that it has to have been purposely put there and not on sale is irrelevant... the fact that the family of the deceased would have a greater claim to anything than you would is irrelevant... the fact that they may have stated in a will they wished to be buried with this item is irrrelevant...

Ah, but I forget, they're dead, and you got there first, so that's all right then.

Honestly, is this forum just having a stupid attack or something?
Consequently you should be arguing against anything you take from anywhere in the game which belongs to someone which is quite obviously most of the stuff. Then I must say that we then need a virtue hit (perhaps in very small increments) for anything you take from chests and tables in all the houses you 'visit'. On the other hand it is pefectly ok to kill somebody for the loot right. :P
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Quitch

  • Perfection
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
  • Making the world a better place for evil
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2004, 08:11:56 PM »
You're in the City of Coin for BG2:SOA, and Trying to stave off an invasion and the attendant pillage and plunder in TOB...
Between the shady criminals selling their wares, the bribe-able guards, the foppish nobles who won't help save De'Arnise keep, the wizards who want to send someone to their death, and a place for the insane that does no rehabilitation?
come off it already...

Ah, how could I not realise this, it's fine because the player has judged it to be fine.  Gosh, that's not a road to evil deeds...
Past: Ascension
Present: Return to Windspear
Future: Imoen Relationship
"Perfection has no deadline"

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2004, 09:45:41 PM »
Then I must say that we then need a virtue hit (perhaps in very small increments) for anything you take from chests and tables in all the houses you 'visit'.
BG1 made this quite difficult, if you'll remember - it is stealing.

Alright folks, I can't believe this discussion is continuing like it's perfectly fine to go out for a night of grave robbing, so let's try this: Your mother/father/lover (whomever you are closest to in your life right now) dies. You bury them with a few artifacts they cherished while alive - a wedding ring, or anything equally endearing. You're telling me you're not going to have a problem with someone cracking that coffin open and taking it? You're telling me that once it's put on that body (and buried) it's up for grabs? We'll forget the fact that Christianity deems this sacrelige, because this is the FR - Talos is evil and chaotic, it stands to reason they would condone the act; Lathander, however, would surely not.

Religion, to me, is the 'founding father' of morality - that's what religion has to do with grave robbing. Religion uses the terms good and evil, Morality uses right and wrong.

edit: oops, a bit too tired - It's also certain religions that make the grave, and corpse, sacred.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 10:40:36 PM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline BobTokyo

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 129
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2004, 10:24:10 PM »
Consequently you should be arguing against anything you take from anywhere in the game which belongs to someone which is quite obviously most of the stuff. Then I must say that we then need a virtue hit (perhaps in very small increments) for anything you take from chests and tables in all the houses you 'visit'. On the other hand it is pefectly ok to kill somebody for the loot right. :P

You should take a virtue hit every time you steal something outside of monster filled dungeons; it's theft, regardless of whether or not you get caught. Killing people who attack you and then stripping them of their arms and armor is a different issue (though there should be a virtue hit for say pickpocketing someone until they go hostile, then killing them and looting the body).

Maybe you could make a case for stealing from the Slavers or the Shadow Thieves, and maybe Nalia's keep, but that's about it.

The path of the righteous man is lined with thorns. ;)

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2004, 10:37:34 PM »
It's bad to steal from Slavers and Cyricists(Shadow Thieves)?
On the one hand, we reduce the gold they have on hand to continue their illegal/destructive ability...
And on the other hand we're not the paragons of virtue...
So, you're either black or white. Way to go for roleplaying.

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2004, 10:39:35 PM »
Sorry, apologise for the previous post.
Open mouth, remove foot.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2004, 10:42:45 PM »
There is no grey area in law.  There is no grey area in religion.
Stupid is as stupid does.

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: