Author Topic: Grave Robbing  (Read 22563 times)

Offline SixOfSpades

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Grave Robbing
« on: June 22, 2004, 05:56:34 PM »
Stealing from tombs just plain isn't nice. True, the idea of people trying to cling to their material posessions is rather unrealistic, and if they're not using the stuff, why shouldn't you....but that doesn't really excuse violating the sanctity of a tomb.

Suggestion: Give every crypt in the Graveyard District that doesn't contain Hostile Undead (and maybe a couple that do, such as the one where you meet Stein and his buddies) an invisible, unkillable observer, who reacts in much the same way as a Commoner: You can disarm the trap, you can pick the lock, but if you actually open the container, *BAM!* Virtue hit. Maybe even a spawn of some low-level Undead.

Also (and I know this is straying from the point of Virtue, but it's related), some flavor might be added by populating the graves with their rightful inhabitants: It's not like the game lacks any "Dead Body" items, plus you've got Amauna's Bones, and Kangaxx's body parts could be recolored and combined with a Skull to complete the set.....etc.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2004, 08:19:50 PM »
Boy, did I pick a winning idea here or what! No thoughts on this at all?   :-\

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2004, 04:47:21 PM »
Sorry, I've been on work experience so I've been largely ignoring Virtue for the week.

I largely operate on the premise that an evil act requires a victim. Who's the victim in taking stuff from the graves? It's disrespectful, and mildly upsetting at worst. I think it's a fair stretch to say it's as evil as anything else that shifts Virtue.

Offline Ruben

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2004, 06:16:29 PM »
Well I think it was Eye of the Beholder 2, but you can dig up graves in it and if you had a Paladin in your party it would give you a little message about him complaining and refusing to have any part in it but he wouldn't leave. Though you never did lose any characters in those games.

Offline icelus

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2004, 07:27:06 PM »
IIRC, the Eye of the Beholder games did not have any kind of reputation system, nor did party members leave/not get along.  I do recall, however, that the paladins did complain about desecrating the graves outside of the citadel (or whatever that building was called).

As for having a victim--I dunno.  I'd think the family of the deceased might not be pleased.  Whether that makes them a "victim," however, is debatable.
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Offline Ruben

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2004, 12:03:08 AM »
Yeah just pointing out from a Paladin's stand point in that game it was treated like stealing.

Aristothenes

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2004, 07:16:42 AM »
I think you get a +3 weapon from doing that graverobbing.
Quite an incentive, especially in those games where such plus-es were extremely hard to find.

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2004, 05:28:56 PM »
well its kind of a spirtual thing to be have some of your things in your tomb. I mean when an old war veteran dies sometimes they put his medals in his coffin. In the world like D&D a warrior might be burried in his armor with his prized sword at his side.

Of course D&D characters raid dungeons of long forgotten people. It really depends on the reason. If you go into a grave yard break open a tomb to steal some stuff for gold is a loss of virtue.

However going to the tomb of a long forgotten hero in order to reclaim his sword to use to fight the forces of evil is a heroic quest. Of course the honorible thing to do in that case is return the sword when your done.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Aristothenes

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2004, 06:33:40 PM »
Just came in from the Forgotten Wars Imoen Romance forum, wanted to ask a relevant question about Virtue:
Does Virtue get affected if you take your sweet time to go to Suldanessellar?
Because 1) You hurried to get Imoen back, so couldn't take the quests
            2) More lives than Imoen's at stake
I'm just saying when you straightjacket the time in it, it doesn't make sense, it becomes a long drawn marathon like UFO: Aftermath. Of course, in that game, if you didn't get your technology up to speed all your squads would be killed - a tangible incentive for action. Here it doesn't seem that way.
Sure, you could always say: Install Planar Sphere WeiDU, but think about it: in TOB there's a massive slaughter, and you must move quickly, yadda yadda.
Wasn't this game meant to be enjoyed?

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2004, 02:07:29 AM »
the entire timing thing was removed.
If i remember correctly it was because you can't assume the PC's motives for the delay. Wanting to be prepared to save Imoen and live to tell the tale
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away.  The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed.  Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion:  Hope.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2004, 07:07:44 AM »
Fallout 2 made you a grave-digger (good or bad, I don't know if it had any affect), PS:T must have done something too.  Uh.. hmm (well, it should have at any rate).

But wait a minute - you don't think grave-robbing is evil, Sim?  :o  I do.  Aside from that, if it's disrespectful, how is that not non-virtuous?

The victim is the sanctity of death, the dead, the grave, and the belongings that are supposed to stay with them.  ..and yes, the living would have quite a bit to say about it.  It's a crime, then as well.

I realize we must think in terms of degrees of evil for this Virtue mod, else you'd have to address quite a bit of behavior, but think about the real-life scenario of digging up a grave and tell me you still wonder.  :(
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2004, 07:32:15 AM »
Being disrespectful isn't the same as being evil. I'm regularly rude to teachers at school for whatever reason, but I'm fairly confident this doesn't make me an evil person.
As for sanctity of death... I'm not quite sure how FR treats afterlife. But still, they're dead. Taking their belongings isn't going to have any effect at all.

Quote
Does Virtue get affected if you take your sweet time to go to Suldanessellar?
Virtue no longer includes timers. They weren't very satisfactory.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2004, 07:51:04 AM »
While rudeness represents a degree of disrespect, disrespect is much more and varied; imo, disrespect is a degree of evil (especially willfull disrespect).  yes, I'll figure it out later (after I've gotten sleep) unless someone has said it better by the time I get back.   ;)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline icelus

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2004, 08:05:24 AM »
But... wouldn't someone who acted like a prick to everyone (for lack of a better word) be considered less virtuous than someone who showed other respect? 
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Offline Kish

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2004, 09:23:50 AM »
No.  Being rude has nothing to do with alignment; a character can be polite and evil or obnoxious and good.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2004, 04:15:08 PM »
Virtue and alignment are different how, again?
Stupid is as stupid does.

Aristothenes

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2004, 06:25:12 PM »
Virtue changes Alignment.
Money Donated changes Reputation.

Aristothenes

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2004, 06:29:32 PM »
Isn't Mr. T. an example of an obnoxious person doing good (Shut yo' mouth foo'!)?

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2004, 04:10:09 AM »
(I never said being rude was evil - reread, please)  But do I want to see the difference between alignment and virtue before I start down this mine-laden path.  I'm having a hard time understanding how grave-robbing is not non-virtuous and not evil.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2004, 06:29:26 AM »
..and before we start a total play on words, let me try and clarify what I am talking about:

Sim calls his teacher a bitch - that's rude, and strange if the teacher is male  :P
Sim calls a cop a pig - that's rude and a bit disrespectful, and likely to get a rise out of the cop.
Sim calls ..well, I can't think of anything (because I need sleep again) but it suffices to say that I was thinking of disrespect on a larger scale as opposed to merely grammatical - the whole sticks and stones thing, aye?

However, Icelus makes a point akin to my thought process - being a prick, encompassing much more than the verbal, implies another degree of evil.  (But that could just be my f*cked up values again, hmm?  :-*)

(and before anyone else tries to say what the diff between virtue and rep is, I was asking Sim  :))
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 06:40:05 AM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2004, 07:31:48 AM »
Quote
It all started in chat a while back, when Kish remarked that Reputation served
a dual purpose in the game. Not only does it indicate how other people in the game
think of the player, but also how morally "right" his actions are.

This mod sets out to remedy this by splitting it into two separate variables:
Reputation, which represents how people in the game feel about the party; and
Virtue, which represents how morally correct the party's actions are.

Virtue is pretty much alignment on a finer scale.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2004, 09:57:27 AM »
well grave-robbing is certainly not amoral.

The victim, I still say, is the sanctity of death; after-life or no.. and, uh.. if they're dead and who cares, then what's so wrong with necrophelia  :P   ::)  :D

yup, it's like that.  To me, anyway.  A violation of ..something personal.  A corpse, and it's resting place, is still 'personal'.  I realize it's just a shell but it's also a symbol of life and the life they lived, and the living (relatives or whomever) chose what to send that shell with; these things are ..just supposed to stay there.  Do you think if that corpse could object, it wouldn't?  Why does bioWare have wraiths appear every time you open a coffin?  Is that not an expression of dissapproval?  BioWare does have one spectre spouting the line about the santity of the grave being violated, the offender must now be dealt with - Amuanator's bones aren't where they should be; there are other points of reference for this argument.

Ultimately, the victim is the idea that people hold about some things being sacred and should remain that way.

I do rather like the idea that opening all the graves/coffin's/sarcoffigi in the Graveyard district will net you a point or 2 in negative Virtue at the very least.

<shrug> I'm sure if I crafted it over a day (or two) I could make it more coherent but, for now, and because I'm not going to have much time in the next few days and am not further motivated, I'll leave it at that. 

Did I say it was a crime already?  Yes, I'm sure I did.  :P
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2004, 10:03:54 AM »
The victim, I still say, is the sanctity of death; after-life or no.. and, uh.. if they're dead and who cares, then what's so wrong with necrophelia  :P   ::)  :D
What IS wrong with it? It's sick, not evil.

Quote
BioWare does have one spectre spouting the line about the santity of the grave being violated, the offender must now be dealt with - Amuanator's bones aren't where they should be; there are other points of reference for this argument.
So presumably in the cases where they do care, they make it known?

Quote
Ultimately, the victim is the idea that people hold about some things being sacred and should remain that way.
By eating certain types of meat, I go against some people's religious beliefs, but this doesn't make me evil. I'd disagree that going against someone's beliefs is anything but moderately disrespectful.

Quote
Did I say it was a crime already?  Yes, I'm sure I did.  :P
So are plenty of other things that I wouldn't classify as remotely evil. I'm sure it's illegal to drop a sheep out of a plane in America somewhere. Hmm. Wait a minute...

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2004, 10:24:31 AM »
Uh.. now I'm speechless.

Give me the name of one religion that does not hold life and death sacred.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Grave Robbing
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2004, 10:26:27 AM »
...atheism?

 

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