Author Topic: Incest Please  (Read 25678 times)

Offline SimDing0™

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Incest Please
« on: June 22, 2004, 03:45:25 PM »
Just because incest isn't acceptable in the real world, doesn't mean you shouldn't make a mod about it. Killing people is also not acceptable, but we do that ingame.

If you complain about the Imoen Romance, complain about the reasons it actually does suck, rather than because OMG INCEST.

That is all.

Offline Kish

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2004, 03:51:21 PM »
It sucks because it prompts SimDing0 to troll.

...and, oh, yeah, it's an incest mod.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2004, 03:52:50 PM »
This isn't trolling. I saw Neriana's post on Studios about it, and it intrigued me, so I posted rather than drag it off topic.

Offline Kish

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2004, 04:09:41 PM »
Ah, okay.  I stand corrected.

However, I see no reason not to rank "it's an incest mod" first among the problems with the Imoen Romance mod.  So sorry about not meeting with your approval.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2004, 04:23:40 PM »
We talked about this in chat and it went nowhere, apart from establishing that I am a nut. Nothing to see here.

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2004, 04:32:59 PM »
They wer raised by different fathers, they didn't meet until they were around 10 years old, they didn't find out that theye were "siblings" until they were in their early 20s, and their other "siblings" include a Dragon, a Chinchilla, a Goblin and a Xvart. It's debateable whether or not this qualifies as incest. If it does, we don't know that it violates the social rules of the Realms.

Or of most royal famillies. ;)

Offline neriana

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2004, 04:54:33 PM »
They wer raised by different fathers, they didn't meet until they were around 10 years old, they didn't find out that theye were "siblings" until they were in their early 20s, and their other "siblings" include a Dragon, a Chinchilla, a Goblin and a Xvart. It's debateable whether or not this qualifies as incest. If it does, we don't know that it violates the social rules of the Realms.

Or of most royal famillies. ;)

Uh, no. They were both raised by Gorion from the time they were babies and they have the same genetic father as well. Their siblings do include a dragon (chinchilla? goblin? xvart? I'm missing something here). It does qualify as incest, and most royal families did not marry their siblings, but their cousins. Egypt is not "most royal families".
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Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2004, 05:06:13 PM »
They wer raised by different fathers, they didn't meet until they were around 10 years old, they didn't find out that theye were "siblings" until they were in their early 20s, and their other "siblings" include a Dragon, a Chinchilla, a Goblin and a Xvart. It's debateable whether or not this qualifies as incest. If it does, we don't know that it violates the social rules of the Realms.

Or of most royal famillies. ;)

Uh, no. They were both raised by Gorion from the time they were babies and they have the same genetic father as well. Their siblings do include a dragon (chinchilla? goblin? xvart? I'm missing something here). It does qualify as incest, and most royal families did not marry their siblings, but their cousins. Egypt is not "most royal families".

Imoen was primarily raised by Winthrop and did not arive in Candlekeep until age 10; read her biography in BG1. The Chinchilla, etc. are Bhaalspawn met in an easy to miss throwaway encounter in TOB. The royal families comment was a joke, and marked with a smiley.

Everyone knows it's only Americans from the rural districts who marry their siblings. ;)

Offline Kish

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2004, 05:08:24 PM »
Imoen was primarily raised by Winthrop and did not arive in Candlekeep until age 10; read her biography in BG1.
Imoen wasn't a child of Bhaal in BG1.  BG2 retcons her into "Gorion's other ward."
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Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2004, 05:22:09 PM »
Imoen was primarily raised by Winthrop and did not arive in Candlekeep until age 10; read her biography in BG1.
Imoen wasn't a child of Bhaal in BG1.  BG2 retcons her into "Gorion's other ward."

Do they also explicitly change her biography to get her to Candlekeep 10 years earlier and switch her father figure from Winthrop to Gorion? I don't have her BG2 Bio available right now, but all of that info is straight from her character bio in BG1.


EDIT:
OK, I checked my copy of the dialog text. They do make one explicit change in her bio: now she arived at Candlekeep in the company of Gorion. However, I see no erasure of the ten years she spent away from Candlekeep, or any change in her relationship with Winthrop. Are those changes made elsewhere in BG2?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 05:29:41 PM by BobTokyo »

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2004, 05:48:11 PM »
I also don't recall either SoA or ToB saying that it was Gorion rather than Winthrop who raised her.
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Offline julwise

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2004, 06:39:46 PM »
Just as a fair warning, my comments are not Imoen-romance specific...

We almost might as well also disallow relationships between elves and humans. Because we consider it gross, not right, or at the least, a doomed pairing in life when people are in relationships with someone much older than them. Think of how we'd feel if our friend/family member was dating someone hundreds of years older than them? I must admit that the idea of a X-hundred year old elf getting with a 20-30 yr old human always seemed a bit off to me, and would/should be a rare occurance if it happens at all. But it doesn't really bother me, I accept it because it's just a game after all. On another note, incest is explored in many instances in fiction. I myself have read many acclaimed books that incorporated incest. It's an issue that, when explored, opens up a lot of avenues for exploration of societies and the human psyche. If anything, the use of incest i've seen in fiction discourages incest by showing its possible consequences and impact on people. Along those lines of thinking, I don't see a problem with exploring the issue of incest in fiction (which BG is, after all). Now, I wouldn't take BG as seriously as I would take a novel that attempts to make social commentary on incest, which is why its use in a mod incites feeling in me even less.   

I'd also be interested to know how the Imoen-Romance mod is affecting you, your life, or the lives of the people around you in such a way that you feel the need to openly object to it? Is it just because someone asked your opinion and you're giving it to them? Or do you fear it will negatively affect others and you want to prevent that?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 03:31:41 AM by julwise »

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2004, 06:49:02 PM »
One more note on this:
You have two young people who didn't meet until they were over 10, in a world where teen marriage is common. They were raised in the same place but by different people, cared for each-other, and in their late teens / early twenties went through life and death experiences together. They did not know that they were the children of the same father (and note that there is no genetic link, only a spiritual link). Under those circumstances, some kind of romantic attraction is certainly likely, even if nothing comes of it.

Offline BigRob

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2004, 08:35:47 PM »
The fact that CHANAME and Imoen can be of an entirely different species tends to indicate to me that there is no genetic cross-over between them. And since their previous relationship is not based on the premise that they are (half) siblings, that pretty much chucks all the negative aspects of such a relationship right out the window, except the effects of finding out that they were related and the views of others.


And, of course, the gods have never cared much for mortal prohibitions.  :D
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Offline Kish

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2004, 08:47:03 PM »
The fact that CHANAME and Imoen can be of an entirely different species
This is far from established.  Yes, it can say "Human" on Imoen's character sheet and "Elf" on CHARNAME's, but they wouldn't give the game away by listing the race as "God/Human" or "God/Elf"--to say nothing of the awkwardness of trying to find room for "half-god/quarter-human/quarter-elf" and "half-god/quarter-human/quarter orc" on a character sheet.

CHARNAME and Imoen can be half of entirely different species--on their mother's side.  On their father's side, they are half-gods.
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Offline Ruben

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2004, 08:57:00 PM »
It really depends on HOW they were concieved in the first place, which is a whole different story and an unanswered one at that. If Baal possed a human and then help conviece Imoen then genetically they are not related and only linked by Baals essence.

Offline MERLANCE

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2004, 09:13:16 PM »
An Imoen Romance bashing thread? Count me in!!!

Back on the Interplay boards, I made a clear post on what I didnt like about.

Someone on the Imoen Romance boards paraphrased that thread at a later date, so you can see the gist of it.

http://www.teambg.net/forum/?showtopic=10877

Basically, I hated it for the bad writing and the raping.

Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2004, 09:17:49 PM »
Yay incest and rape. What class. Should have called it the Caligula mod.
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Offline MERLANCE

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2004, 09:28:21 PM »
Yay incest and rape. What class. Should have called it the Caligula mod.

Nice. If there was a thumbs up icon, I would post it here.

Its not just the PC trying to rape Imoen, but Irenicus lets a duergar rape her in spellhold.

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2004, 10:28:54 PM »
An evil PC may attempt to rape Imoen, after which she kills him and the game ends. Lord M made a decision to let an Evil character attempt to perform an Evil action and then pay for it. This will not fit the role-playing preferences of those who prefer evil in computer games to be more restricted.

The rape Imoen suffered in Spellhold was used as a storytelling device to make her pain more real to the player. Most players are middle class westerners. We can't really relate to kidnapping and physical torture at the hands of a stranger; it remains distant and unreal. On the other hand, many of us know a survivor of rape. It is something we can emotionally relate to. That change to the storyline made Imoen's pain far more real to many players; it provoked anger and disgust towards Irenicus, changing him from a cartoonish villain into someone the player could hate. For some players it makes the story much more powerful. It is not a change in the story that everyone will agree with.

Offline MERLANCE

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2004, 12:23:26 AM »
It is not a change in the story that everyone will agree with.

Yup. Apparently, that is correct.

As for the PC paying consequences, you dont get a saving throw one way, and she automatically kills you another way. Real good use of the rules of the game.

Defend the "I have to pee" and "I have to poo" comments the PC can make, then. Real mature. The rape seem all the more heart wrenching with the PC talking about that stuff with Imoen. (no, they arent in the same dialogue, I dont think).

Do I need to quote the whole rape scene? I really hope not, as it is quite distasteful.

Offline julwise

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2004, 12:27:14 AM »
Do I need to quote the whole rape scene? I really hope not, as it is quite distasteful.

Sorry but this just jumped out at me. Do you imply that there is such a thing as a tasteful rape scene?

Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2004, 12:42:09 AM »
It is not a change in the story that everyone will agree with.

Yup. Apparently, that is correct.

As for the PC paying consequences, you dont get a saving throw one way, and she automatically kills you another way. Real good use of the rules of the game.

Defend the "I have to pee" and "I have to poo" comments the PC can make, then. Real mature. The rape seem all the more heart wrenching with the PC talking about that stuff with Imoen. (no, they arent in the same dialogue, I dont think).

Do I need to quote the whole rape scene? I really hope not, as it is quite distasteful.


Those comments were intended as jokes, though a chaotic character could possibly use them as well. Not all of the jokes in the mod appeal to all players.

Some found the Spellhold rape offensive and thought it added nothing to the story. I see it as making the story much more effective. Some found the evil options for attacking Imoen offensive as well. I thought that they were appropriate for evil characters; evil is not just posing and making sarcastic comments, and the mod reflects that. You can quote what you'd like, but I don't see what the point would be. Out of context quotes from the mod won't make much sense; in context the dialog served story purposes that you apparently don't agree with.

Offline MERLANCE

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2004, 12:43:59 AM »
Hmm, it happens again. The Imoen fanboys (and judging by your avatar, possibly fangirls) pounce upon frivolous details.

Why dont you bring something up other than my word choice? It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Offline julwise

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Re: Incest Please
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2004, 12:49:03 AM »
Hmm, well i've never played the mod...

My stance on the mod is really nonexistent. I do however have a stance on the issue. If I had to put it into words I would probably use that old quote "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (If you see my earlier post it expresses this)

Maybe you yourself shouldn't "pounce" to quick judgements of people and their motivations.

Sorry if I took your comment too seriously, I was only hoping you didn't mean it that way. :) Because if you did.. well let's just say I would have had to disagree.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 12:56:33 AM by julwise »

 

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