Author Topic: Virtue goes up too much!  (Read 23565 times)

Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2004, 10:07:17 PM »

For me Spellhold is more like Guantanamo. Detainees are there to be softened up and questioned for the greater good of the Amnish citizens.

Oh yeah. "Softened up." Have you read the news lately? "Softened up" means humiliated, threatened, raped, and tortured in many other ways. "For the greater safety"??? Right, I feel a hell of a lot safer now that I know just what my country, specifically this administration, is capable of. They say it's not torture unless your ONLY goal is to inflict pain, and that pain has to be equivalent to major organ failure or death. If you don't think that's evil, why do you care about anything in Virtue in the first place? They aren't wearing Nazi uniforms, so it can't possibly be evil? Men being torn from their families, not charged with anything, and kept at the whim of the chief executive, and anything at all can be done to them because King George says so and that's not evil?!

I could point out how your parallels were totally wrong in BG2, like for instance that Wanev experiments on prisoners, but it's not worth it if you can't see that torture is torture is evil no matter how you slice it.
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2004, 12:41:37 AM »
No, neriana, I am a 100% with you on that and I did not pick this picture without reason. I read a lot of stuff about how the free world is fighting 'the bad guys' alll over the world. My guess or hope always has been that any sober citizen in the US must feel the same way as you do, so all is not lost.

My question is, if being evil in BG2, warrants to be whacked no matter what. If it was possible, should a paladin also kill Rayic without being told to do so. All the points still apply apart from the fact that it would not be Edwin's quest. Shouldn't a paladin 'clear out' the Talos temple to begin with?

You do not get a viable choice like in the Embarl situation.

On a sidenote: In Europe you hear sometimes the Nazi comparison pop up (Sadly in Austria mostly from right-wing MFs who are in complete denial about this monstrosity in the first place). Even PETA claimed that what we do to animals is like the Holocaust. I think inaccurate historic parallels are good for the tabloids, but hinder real debate.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2004, 01:28:20 AM »
Actually, the three lairs in the Underdark make a better example than "an orc."

Let's assume, here, that the PC goes to the drow city before any of the other Underdark cities.  S/he is told that Matron Mother Ardulace wants the blood of a kuo-toa prince, the eye of an Elder Orb Beholder, or the blood of an illithid elder-brain, and where to find them.  How is this morally different from Edwin's quest to kill Rayic?

Because it's necessary?  No, it isn't--the PC can kill Ardulace, seize the eggs, and fight his/her way out of the drow city.  The drow have allied with Irenicus, stolen Adalon's eggs, held them hostage, and planned to double-cross her and sacrifice them; the other Underdark denizens have done nothing to you.  (Moreover, I'd actually contend that even if you actually needed the Elder Orb's eye, it wouldn't make killing the Elder Orb justifiable--why should the Elder Orb care about your needs?
CHARNAME: I'm justified in killing the Elder Orb because I need its eye.
IRENICUS: Interesting you should say that--I'm justified in killing you because I need your soul.  Glad to see you're making no pretense of a moral high ground, here.)
Because they attack you on sight?  If you came into my home planning to kill me and cut my eye out, I'd shoot you on sight, too.
The only reason I can see for the distinction, then, is that the Elder Orb looks, physically, a lot creepier than Rayic Gethras to human sensibilities.

And what about those players--most players, I bet--who explore and depopulate not one of the Underdark areas, but three?  When you already have the Elder Orb's eye, why is going into the kuo-toa caverns planning to kill and rob all the sapient beings there, because you can, more justifiable than going into the Temple of Talos and killing all the worshipers?  Again, kuo-toa are in no way more monstrous than priests of Talos.

I'm really neutral on whether you should make it "not evil" to kill human monsters or make it "evil" to kill nonhuman ones, but I think it's important to be consistent--and Virtue is not consistent as it stands.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2004, 03:34:23 AM »
Because they attack you on sight?  If you came into my home planning to kill me and cut my eye out, I'd shoot you on sight, too.
And if you go there before you've even heard anything about the quest?

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2004, 03:36:19 AM »
A tragic misunderstanding.  Not evil.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2004, 04:29:55 AM »
In D&D many creatures are born evil.
Chromatic Dragons, Red, Blue Green, Black, White are born evil.
Likewise Metalic Dragons Gold, Bronze, Silver, Brass, Copper are born good.

What it comes down to is how smart is the critter when its born.

Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, Ogres, Giants and the other demi-humans are born just as smart as human babies are born. Depending on how they are raised will affect there alignment. But like with people sometimes they become something unexpected.

Dragons are born with the ability to speak at lest. Some types of dragons are born with int scores of above 10. Being born with all that knowldge and the magical nature locks them in. Unless some great cosmic event occurs they will remain that way forever.

Lets look at the three groups in the underdark.
The Beholder Lair, Beholders are naturally evil only rare magical events make them otherwise. (unless they are Specter beholder or a beholderkin) They only a Specter beholder in Baldurs gate.

Mind Flayer lair. First off if you enter no matter the timing they inslave you and force you to fight. I don't know if a mind flayer is born evil. I don't have a clue how they are born. Do mind flayers spawn off of a elder brain. However the fact Mind Flayers feed off of the brains of sentient creatures would drive them to be evil.

As for the kuo-toa I don't think they are born evil. But they do have a habbit of eating other humanoids.

Remeber the story of the Scorpian and the Toad.
"its in my nature"
For many creatures evil is in there nature and the only thing you can count on them to do is whats in there own best interest.
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2004, 09:56:07 AM »
How much is the virtue hit for killing off the Kuo-Toa hatchlings and sealing the fate of the Saguain, since I cannot remember off the top of my head, if there is any. I think you get a slightly better reward for siding with the king (So even more evil to do it for that reason).
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2004, 11:42:46 AM »
Do you mean the Kuo-toa hatchlings?  I don't think I've ever seen an option to kill Sahuagin hatchlings.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2004, 12:32:52 PM »
"Born evil" is a ridiculous concept.  If it has sapience, it has a choice.

Does the name "Fall-From-Grace" mean anything to you?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2004, 12:38:43 PM »
A tragic misunderstanding.  Not evil.
I'm as bored with constantly bringing up the Aerie analogy as anyone else. But, for what it's worth, how does the misunderstanding here differ from attacking an ogre before you discern its intent?

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2004, 12:41:50 PM »
So do you think there should be Virtue hits for invading the beholder, illithid, and kuo-toa cities at any time?  I'd find that preferable to the way it is now.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2004, 12:44:40 PM »
Huh? No, I'm reiterating that "they attack you first". For sentient beings, they don't do a great deal to find out why you're there.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2004, 12:53:28 PM »
Neither does Rayic.  But killing him is wrong, apparently, and killing and mutilating the beholders, kuo-toa, and illithids is right.

Finding an ogre in a circus is also weird enough to make you wonder what's going on, and Aerie addresses you first.  Finding a drow raiding party entering the beholder city is not weird at all--indeed, you're not even the only group of "drow" there.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 12:56:40 PM by Kish »
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2004, 12:56:13 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rayic makes it fairly clear that he wants you to leave. The Beholders aren't so generous.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2004, 01:17:21 PM »
And that makes it all right to go to their city to kill them?
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2004, 01:24:45 PM »
I'd say that if you stumble across a group of creatures and they attack you for no reason, you're quite within your rights to defend yourself.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2004, 01:47:50 PM »
That's nice.  It's not what I asked, though.

I asked if it was justified to go to their cities after the Matron Mother told you they're there, to kill them and cut them up for her spell.  You changed the subject to "what if you just stumble into them?" and have been ignoring my question ever since.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 01:49:36 PM by Kish »
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2004, 01:56:46 PM »
They don't know whether you've come to steal their eyestalks or blow them kisses. They're still hostile either way.

And isn't it rather presumptuous to say that even after the player has been ordered to go there to kill them, he actually intends to do what the Matron Mother says? Personally, I'd be just as happy to try going down and chatting to the intelligent creatures about it. But nope, they want to kill me anyway.

Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2004, 02:15:50 PM »
Huh? No, I'm reiterating that "they attack you first". For sentient beings, they don't do a great deal to find out why you're there.

Why should everybody else care that you are a soulless spawn of a human god. The Beholders as an example are minding their own business apart from fending off occasional drow raiders.

Quote
I'd say that if you stumble across a group of creatures and they attack you for no reason, you're quite within your rights to defend yourself.
Preemptive strike as self defense strikes a familiar chord. Rayic asks you to leave which is quite a lot considering that you have already sneaked past two signs that you are an unwanted trespasser. As a member of the CW he is quite aware that anyone who makes it past this defenses is there for a reason. I doubt he thinks you are from the Jehova's witnesses as he probably had a fair share of ST assassins looking for him. Perhaps there should be an option in the underdark to talk first and leave. The only exception would be the Mindflayers since you are poultry to them and no hungry Mindflayer would pass up on Kelsey or Imoen.


If you have a line that asks you to leave, a small virtue hit would be in order I think.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2004, 02:16:22 PM »
You know you look like drow and that they have every reason to expect hostility from drow.  I can't think of anything you have to "chat" with them about.

However, I give up--I see that the current standards for justifying killing are not about to change.
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2004, 02:23:10 PM »
Damn, sorry I forgot about my appearance. This would make it harder for the Beholder part as they are already fighting a drow party and we look like reinforcements. Now it makes it possible for the MFs however as they are already striking a deal inside the city.

for example:

MF: ' You have no business here. Leave now! Our emissiaries await you at your city.'

Addendum: You kill the Kuo-Toa by poisoning their hatchlings, the Saghuain by killing the prince. Any hits for this?

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Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2004, 03:45:16 PM »
I'm not sure about the others, but I don't believe you should take a Virtue hit for killing the illithid. When you enter their lair, they enslave you and force you to fight. They have already enslaved others and are forcing them to do the same.

Also, these particular Beholders and Kua-Toa really are evil. The first time I played, I ran into the Beholders simply from exploring the Underdark, and they attacked me. I don't think it was wrong to defend myself. Further, the only way to avoid the drow is to run through the Kua-Toa lair.

I suppose the question is whether you should take a Virtue hit for accepting the Matron Mother's proposition. Since the alternative is to slaughter the entire drow city, I don't think you should. It's supposed to be an impossible situation, and there are no good choices. If you started really picking at it, you'd end up with an extremely low Virtue for regaining the silver dragon eggs.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2004, 03:53:27 PM »
But why is it worse to slaughter the drow city than to slaughter the beholder city, or the kuo-toa city, or to plan to slaughter the illithid city (with no way of knowing they'll try to enslave you)?  The drow are guilty of allying with Irenicus, stealing Adalon's eggs, holding them hostage, and planning to sacrifice them.  The other races are, as far as you know at that time (unless you already met them by accident, of course), innocent.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 03:55:28 PM by Kish »
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Offline Imrahil

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2004, 04:20:31 PM »
Theoretically it should be impossible to slaughter an entire Drow city, so I don't truly see that as a valid role-playing option. Plus, you have to get one of the ingredients before you even know where the Eggs are being kept (do you even know that House Despana has them before Phaere asks you to betray the Matron Mother?). The only "realistic" option for a Good player who wants to help Adalon is to play along with Phaere & the Matron Mother & make the switch.

For ambiguous cases like these, I'd only put in a Virtue hit for options that have a peaceful resolution but the player chooses not to take it. For example...
- Mae'Var asks you to kill Embarl, but you don't have to actually kill him to complete the mission, so if you do kill him, you take a hit.
- Edwin asks you to kill Reyic and there's no other way to complete the mission without doing it, so no hit.
- Phaere asks you to kill a Svirfneblin patrol, but you have the option of talking to them, so killing them = a hit.
- The Matron Mother asks you to kill Mind Flayers/Beholders/Kou Toa and there's no (legitimate) way to complete the mission without doing so, so no hit (by the way, would it make a difference if she asked you to kill a Red Dragon?)

It's probably not within the scope of the Virtue MOD, but a better solution would be to add non-violent methods to deal with Reyic (by talking to him or just lying to Edwin) or a different way to complete the Matron Mother's request and/or get the Eggs back.

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Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2004, 04:30:13 PM »
First, can illithid ever possibly be "innocent"? I admit that I am probably prejudiced against them (I really hate illithid), but the whole point of their existence seems to be to enslave and suck the brains of other races. Further, these illithid are not innocent by any stretch of the imagination. They have enslaved people for pit fights, and they have enslaved other people and stuck them to a machine. Killing them to free yourself and others is a good thing, not a bad thing, since there's no other way to go about it. Like I said, I'm not sure about the Beholders and Kua-Toa because I don't know enough about them. But from what I can tell, they are also born evil, can't change, and don't want to change. This doesn't happen in the real world, but D&D is pure fantasy.

I do think it's "worse" to slaughter the drow, because they seem altogether more open to change. It is certainly an unintelligent thing to attempt. I don't think people should have to give up all self-interest in order to retain their virtue.

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