Author Topic: Virtue goes up too much!  (Read 23538 times)

Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2004, 01:42:08 AM »
Yes have any of you read the players hand book from any thing D&D, AD&D
3.0 or 3.5
Bioware was rather loose with the Paladins restrictions.
A Paladin is suposed to be pure of heart and all that stuff.
If superman played D&D he'd be a paladin. It fits rather well. Would superman and many other such super heroes work with a bad guy unless there was no other choice.

Paladins have a strict code of conduct. This is because they are a very most powerful classes. It doesn't show up in the game as much as it does on PnP.

If you don't play the real game of D&D you have no grounds in which to argue on this subject. I'm sorry but you don't. It just like someone who only plays Star Trek games but never watchs Star Trek shouldn't debate who's a better captain Picard or Kirk.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2004, 01:58:40 AM by Lord Kain »
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2004, 11:40:50 PM »
It just like someone who only plays Star Trek games but never watchs Star Trek shouldn't debate who's a better captain Picard or Kirk.

Picard.  ;D
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2004, 04:28:09 AM »
In Starfleet Academy in a future not as far away as you might think.

Teacher: Time is over . Hand in your tests.

Picard (looking veeeery pensive on an empty sheet): Dang, I wasted all the time daydreaming about 19th century stuff for the holodeck and my collection of useless, but very ancient clay figurines from distant worlds.

Kirk: I am not finished, but I wrestled bare chested with a space monster just outside the restrooms and it ate my test. I saved the day, sort of.


Definitely two very distinct approaches. :D But yes, neriana is right, Picard.
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Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2004, 11:28:55 PM »
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Virtue doesn't go up enough. Freeing the slaves in Ust Natha? Killing Dola Fadoon? These are both actions that benefit (relatively) Good-aligned Innocents, at the expense of some gold and exposing the party to potential discovery in a hostile environment. Yet the Virtue counter stays solid as a rock.

Where's the Virtue boost for clearing out a huge lair of Vampires that's been preying on the blood of the innocent? For singlehandedly tearing down a stronghold of Evil Thieves? For saving the Tree of Life?

Or let's consider the Temple District. Go Pickpocketing in the Temple of Helm, get caught at it, and seven people see you--and you take a Virtue hit for each one of them. So the message here is that robbing a lone person in the woods is more "virtuous" than robbing someone in a crowd? If anything, it's Reputation that should suffer relative to the number of witnesses.
Next, suppose you get caught burglarizing the Temple of Lathander, and in the scuffle, a Morning Knight gets killed, and your Virtue understandably takes a hit. So, you trot across the street and kill a follower of an Evil religion--and that nails your Virtue too! What gives?
Most Stores should adjust their prices relative to party Reputation.
Temples, however, should adjust according to Virtue.
Demi-Temples (such as Wallace in Trademeet) are a grey area....maybe have them take the average from both?

A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed. I would set the conditions for Falling to be if
a) Virtue drops below 12, or
b) Any single event that causes Virtue to drop by 2 or more points.

Next up on my comment list is that NPCs should remain in the party even if their Reputation is completely at odds with their Alignment: I can certainly see Edwin being pleased as punch at being hailed as a hero (laughing up his sleeve the whole time at these pathetic simpletons who are so easily misled)--as long as he knows what the party has really been up to behind everyone's backs. Keldorn, similarly, could tolerate being Despised (he suffers through Anomen, doesn't he?) as long as he can testify that the PC's actions are actually good and true.

Lastly, everybody talks too much. I can barely walk across a map area without some party member piping up with a comment on how pleased/displeased they are with my Virtue. Even the Happy comments get annoying after the 200th time. How much can this be slowed down? Once every couple of hours shoulf be plenty. Also, the Virtue comments cause the party members to stop whatever they're doing and tell the world just how they feel. If they're walking, they stop walking. If they're in Stealth, they break Stealth. I've never seen a spell get disrupted from this, but only time will tell. Note that it is not the Reputation comments that cause this--only Virtue.

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On the whole, I think Virtue is a great idea that was well implemented--that's why I wrote you a negative post, same as I wrote for Kelsey. :) That makes sense, doesn't it? I just think it still needs work, and my feedback will probably be helpful. Good job and good luck with future work!

P.S. It's really weird watching the "Virtue vs. Hell Trials" duel right before the final battle. "She's Neutral Good!" "No, she's True Neutral!" "Neutral Good!" "True Neutral!;D

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2004, 11:43:02 PM »


A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed.
Hmm?  How a decision turns out doesn't matter to how virtuous it is.  Evil acts (ones which impact Virtue negatively) are (at least theoretically) supposed to be obvious to anyone.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2004, 11:55:03 PM »
you shouldn't get virtue for doing anything that is required to advance towards the end of the game.

With Virtue instailed NPC happyness is based off of virture instead of rep. What are you talking about?

As Kish said before have you even read the players hand book.

A paladin WILL fall if he willing commits a single EVIL ACT!. If you want to be a paladin and have your group do dishonorble things shame on you! The rules for being a paladin have ALWAYS ALWAYS been strict. Thank you SimDing0 for forcing paladin plays who use the virtue mod to ACT like paladins.
"A knight is sworn to valor"
"His heart knows only virtue"
"His words speak only truth" 
"His blade defends the helpless"
"His wraith undoes the wicked!"

That little speech I rememeber from the movie dragon heart applys well for paladins. A Paladin should be truthful unless its to trick a foe in order to win later.
Now, at last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift that Raziel had given me, more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me - the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: Hope.

Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2004, 02:07:24 AM »
For doing something your virtue should suffer, whereas for being seen by anyone doing it your rep should get hit IMO. There is always the option of being misunderstood however. That can be shaky and (to cite 'The Animals')don't let me be misunderstood.
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Offline discharger12

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2004, 08:40:25 AM »
Yeah, KOTOR has RPing up the yingyang. Slightly uncomfortable, but nonetheless interesting. Seriously, if you don't want to follow the rules of being a paly, it's the worst class possible to bend the rules with.

Speaking of BioWare, how do you think Jade Empire looks compared to KoToR?

Offline Mongoose87

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2004, 11:12:29 AM »
Havent played it, but this isn't the place to discuss that.

Offline discharger12

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2004, 06:19:17 PM »
Ooh, sorry, I forgot to put the "OFF TOPIC" phrase before my sentence.

But yes, you are right.  :P

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2004, 04:46:00 AM »
A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed.
Hmm? How a decision turns out doesn't matter to how virtuous it is. Evil acts (ones which impact Virtue negatively) are (at least theoretically) supposed to be obvious to anyone.
Allow me to regale you with the tale of the first time I did Keldorn's quest. After the hulabaloo with Maria and his "Curse the dictates of honor" bit, I was presented with a choice:
1- "I think we should confront this Sir William, blah blah blah."
2- "Let us take this matter before the courts, and see that the wisest decision is made."
Naturally, I chose the latter path, since I didn't want Keldorn's family torn apart: Talking to a magistrate about this would allow cooler heads to prevail. And ANYTHING would be better than bringing the big guy with the big sword face-to-face with the guy who's been sharing Maria's bed.
Of course, we all know exactly how that decision turned out, don't we? :(

Translating this dilemma back into the context of Virtue, I don't want one simple mistake like this to result in the loss of my Paladin status. Nor do I want to become Fallen simply because I accepted Renal Bloodscalp's quest to kill Thieves (unavoidable Virtue hit after killing Rayic Gethras). Strictly enforcing roleplaying for Paladins is all well and good, but there's a line between strict and anal.

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Another point I forgot to bring up in my earlier post: Having a party of 6 at Spellhold results in a 4-point Virtue drop when you tell Imoen you don't have room for her. Yet giving her the runaround--accepting her into the party, then booting her a second later--leaves your Virtue untouched. I suggest a happy medium, in the form of a conversation option that encourages Imoen to just hang around until you've cleared the way to the exit, and she can escape simply by following along.


you shouldn't get virtue for doing anything that is required to advance towards the end of the game.
I agree, and yet I also agree with the notion that you should get virtue for doing good deeds. When the two ideas contradict each other (e.g., Tree of Life), perhaps the PC's motives should come into play, perhaps through the use of conversation options:
1- "He's trying to sap all the power out of the Tree of Life!?! The gods only know what that might destroy! He must be stopped at all costs!"
2- "Just point me to the bastard that stole my soul, and you'll have your stupid Tree back soon enough."

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With Virtue instailed NPC happyness is based off of virture instead of rep. What are you talking about?
I'm talking about Korgan & Edwin being pissed off when our Rep. is high but our Virtue is neutral.

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A paladin WILL fall if he willing commits a single EVIL ACT!. If you want to be a paladin and have your group do dishonorble things shame on you!
In response, I'll bring up that Rayic Gethras Virtue hit again. Given what the PC knows about Cowled Wizards at that point, can killing a dude whose house is full of Evil Mephits actually be considered an evil act? (I can't recall at the moment if Gethras himself is Evil or not.) Gethras never really struck me as all that sympathetic a character, how about you?

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A Paladin should be truthful unless its to trick a foe in order to win later.
What's that supposed to mean? "Always tell the truth, unless you can benefit by lying?"
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 04:50:31 AM by SixOfSpades »

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2004, 05:20:09 AM »
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Virtue doesn't go up enough. Freeing the slaves in Ust Natha? Killing Dola Fadoon? These are both actions that benefit (relatively) Good-aligned Innocents, at the expense of some gold and exposing the party to potential discovery in a hostile environment. Yet the Virtue counter stays solid as a rock.
Freeing the slaves should affect it. I can't even remember who Dola Fadoon is, which is probably just what you want to hear right now, but I'll check it.

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Where's the Virtue boost for clearing out a huge lair of Vampires that's been preying on the blood of the innocent? For singlehandedly tearing down a stronghold of Evil Thieves? For saving the Tree of Life?
As below, the problem is determining the character's intent. Virtue usually only goes up if the player's gone out of their way to perform good deeds. It's tricky territory, though.

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Or let's consider the Temple District. Go Pickpocketing in the Temple of Helm, get caught at it, and seven people see you--and you take a Virtue hit for each one of them. So the message here is that robbing a lone person in the woods is more "virtuous" than robbing someone in a crowd? If anything, it's Reputation that should suffer relative to the number of witnesses.
That's a bug. It should be reputation that suffers, yes.

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Next, suppose you get caught burglarizing the Temple of Lathander, and in the scuffle, a Morning Knight gets killed, and your Virtue understandably takes a hit. So, you trot across the street and kill a follower of an Evil religion--and that nails your Virtue too! What gives?
Talos should be able to take chaotic neutral worshippers too, I think, although the game prevents this, so it's not an exclusively evil religion. But even so, do you think it's virtuous to go round killing every malevolently-minded official in Athkatla who's just minding their own business?

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Most Stores should adjust their prices relative to party Reputation.
Temples, however, should adjust according to Virtue.
Demi-Temples (such as Wallace in Trademeet) are a grey area....maybe have them take the average from both?
How do temples know how virtuous you are any better than stores? We could assume they cast Know Alignment, although I wouldn't be convinced of this, but then it's impossible to code to my satisfaction anyway. :)

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A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed. I would set the conditions for Falling to be if
a) Virtue drops below 12, or
b) Any single event that causes Virtue to drop by 2 or more points.
That means paladins get away with doing lots of small nasty things? I'm not convinced. I'd be more tempted to say that Paladins get allowed a two-point virtue drop, either all at once or separated, before they fall.
However, I'm still not sure that only allowing one is really so bad. Are there any decisions where "mystical foreknowledge" is required to see what you should be doing? The closest I can think of is getting a virtue drop for killing Aerie in ogre form, but I think that's quite fair.

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Next up on my comment list is that NPCs should remain in the party even if their Reputation is completely at odds with their Alignment: I can certainly see Edwin being pleased as punch at being hailed as a hero (laughing up his sleeve the whole time at these pathetic simpletons who are so easily misled)--as long as he knows what the party has really been up to behind everyone's backs. Keldorn, similarly, could tolerate being Despised (he suffers through Anomen, doesn't he?) as long as he can testify that the PC's actions are actually good and true.
And this is exactly how it works...

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Lastly, everybody talks too much. I can barely walk across a map area without some party member piping up with a comment on how pleased/displeased they are with my Virtue. Even the Happy comments get annoying after the 200th time. How much can this be slowed down? Once every couple of hours shoulf be plenty. Also, the Virtue comments cause the party members to stop whatever they're doing and tell the world just how they feel. If they're walking, they stop walking. If they're in Stealth, they break Stealth. I've never seen a spell get disrupted from this, but only time will tell. Note that it is not the Reputation comments that cause this--only Virtue.
There shouldn't even be reputation comments with this installed. But I'll make it so they only speak when they're standing around doing nothing. As for the time between comments, that was an arbitrary value dreamed up by a few of us in chat; they should become less frequent when I add an ActionListEmpty(), however.

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On the whole, I think Virtue is a great idea that was well implemented--that's why I wrote you a negative post, same as I wrote for Kelsey. :) That makes sense, doesn't it? I just think it still needs work, and my feedback will probably be helpful. Good job and good luck with future work!
Thanks. I absolutely love negative posts. Seriously.

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P.S. It's really weird watching the "Virtue vs. Hell Trials" duel right before the final battle. "She's Neutral Good!" "No, she's True Neutral!" "Neutral Good!" "True Neutral!;D
Heh. I could probably add special handling to the Hell Trials to only add up all the Virtue changes at the very end, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.

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Nor do I want to become Fallen simply because I accepted Renal Bloodscalp's quest to kill Thieves (unavoidable Virtue hit after killing Rayic Gethras).
I'd rather deal with this as a separate issue and say "is killing Rayic evil?"

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Another point I forgot to bring up in my earlier post: Having a party of 6 at Spellhold results in a 4-point Virtue drop when you tell Imoen you don't have room for her. Yet giving her the runaround--accepting her into the party, then booting her a second later--leaves your Virtue untouched. I suggest a happy medium, in the form of a conversation option that encourages Imoen to just hang around until you've cleared the way to the exit, and she can escape simply by following along.
There's a "good" dialogue option you can use to tell her to stay even when you have less than 6 people in the party, I think. However, Quest Pack should extract the suck from this situation at some point, since it'll allow you to find a way to get Imoen home.

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I'm talking about Korgan & Edwin being pissed off when our Rep. is high but our Virtue is neutral.
They're liable to complain at high-ish neutral virtue, but shouldn't be leaving any time soon.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2004, 12:11:33 PM »
Talos should be able to take chaotic neutral worshippers too, I think, although the game prevents this, so it's not an exclusively evil religion.
Er, hey.  Talos is a Chaotic Evil god.  He accepts Chaotic Neutral worshipers, but every priest of Talos is dedicated to causing suffering, misery, and destruction.
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But even so, do you think it's virtuous to go round killing every malevolently-minded official in Athkatla who's just minding their own business?
Considering that their business, as reflected in the Temple of Talos stronghold quests, is "ruining the lives of innocent people," absolutely.  Is there a Virtue hit for walking into an orc lair and killing the orcs there?  They deserve the title "innocent" much more than priests of Talos do.
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But I'll make it so they only speak when they're standing around doing nothing.
That's going to make the Virtue comments pretty rare.

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Nor do I want to become Fallen simply because I accepted Renal Bloodscalp's quest to kill Thieves (unavoidable Virtue hit after killing Rayic Gethras).
I'd rather deal with this as a separate issue and say "is killing Rayic evil?"
If you just look at that--and not, say, the fact that you're sent to kill him by someone who's pretty thoroughly vile and has a history of wanting you to kill Lawful Good mages--then, well, he's wearing the Amnish equivalent of an S. S. uniform.
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2004, 12:24:27 PM »
@ S. S. uniform: I hope that means Star Sailor otherwise it is a very.. unpleasant argument.

Your orc argument is exactly what makes Virtue very tricky. For people who clear out (sic!) all three lairs in the Underdark to get Adalon's eggs back that would be a Virtue issue IMHO. You only need one and -in an otherwise unmodded game  IIRC- the eyestalk is obtainable with comparably little bloodshed.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2004, 04:23:17 PM »
@ S. S. uniform: I hope that means Star Sailor otherwise it is a very.. unpleasant argument.
I think it's pretty obvious what I mean.  What do you mean, a "very...unpleasant argument"?
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2004, 04:32:16 PM »
I do not like any Nazi symbolism in arguments as it distracts from the true horror of this regime. In the fantasy-medieval setting of BG I would say they aren't particularily evil. Whoever came up with the idea, but keeping street magic use under tight regulation per se is not that evil (Not that I ever cared. It always seemed only centered on my use of magic, so I ended up killing them anyways). Do the CW actively hunt down and kill mages and their families? Very off topic, but I just wanted to frown at the comparison.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2004, 04:34:40 PM »
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Considering that their business, as reflected in the Temple of Talos stronghold quests, is "ruining the lives of innocent people," absolutely.  Is there a Virtue hit for walking into an orc lair and killing the orcs there?  They deserve the title "innocent" much more than priests of Talos do.
The orcs are rather less friendly towards you than the Talosian priests.

That's going to make the Virtue comments pretty rare.
As I said in chat, it's that or lose the bulging white circle.

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If you just look at that--and not, say, the fact that you're sent to kill him by someone who's pretty thoroughly vile and has a history of wanting you to kill Lawful Good mages--then, well, he's wearing the Amnish equivalent of an S. S. uniform.
So you think this is worth considering as well as the nature of the action itself? Doesn't that make wiping out Bodhi's lair in the name of the Shadow Thieves pretty evil?

Offline neriana

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2004, 04:43:24 PM »
I do not like any Nazi symbolism in arguments as it distracts from the true horror of this regime. In the fantasy-medieval setting of BG I would say they aren't particularily evil. Whoever came up with the idea, but keeping street magic use under tight regulation per se is not that evil (Not that I ever cared. It always seemed only centered on my use of magic, so I ended up killing them anyways). Do the CW actively hunt down and kill mages and their families? Very off topic, but I just wanted to frown at the comparison.

I disagree with both points. I won't argue about the Nazi comparison per se because I don't think that will get anywhere, and it's probably not appropriate for this forum.

However, the second point: the Cowled Wizards are definitely fascist. If you don't belong to their group and dare to practice magic (and they do actively hunt down anyone who does), they throw you into jail and experiment on you. They want you to kill Valygar so they can use his body to get to more power. They are thoroughly evil.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2004, 04:45:44 PM »
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If you just look at that--and not, say, the fact that you're sent to kill him by someone who's pretty thoroughly vile and has a history of wanting you to kill Lawful Good mages--then, well, he's wearing the Amnish equivalent of an S. S. uniform.
So you think this is worth considering as well as the nature of the action itself? Doesn't that make wiping out Bodhi's lair in the name of the Shadow Thieves pretty evil?
Okay, I've reread what you said, and this reply makes no sense.

[EDIT] Wait. Yes it does.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 04:49:55 PM by SimDing0 »

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2004, 05:01:14 PM »
I do not like any Nazi symbolism in arguments as it distracts from the true horror of this regime. In the fantasy-medieval setting of BG I would say they aren't particularily evil.
Not particularly evil?

The people they seize--whether for defending themselves or for using a Tenser's Floating Disk--disappear forever without trial and with their fates never being revealed to anyone else.  They don't answer even to the already-corrupt government of Athkatla, and when they discover an innocent man is the key to accessing the giant sphere that offers them a chance to enhance their power, they send a goon squad to bring him back dead or alive.  Not particularly evil?
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Very off topic, but I just wanted to frown at the comparison.
Frown at whatever you like--I don't make comparisons to please you.
The orcs are rather less friendly towards you than the Talosian priests.
Yes, they're stupider and less subtle, which is why they're a lot less dangerous--and usually less evil, too.  Currently you have it that it's just fine to kill a monster if it looks like an orc, but not if it looks like a man.  That seems badly messed up to me.

In any case, what happens during the final Temple of Lathander stronghold quest?  Do you lose Virtue for killing them then?
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That's going to make the Virtue comments pretty rare.
As I said in chat, it's that or lose the bulging white circle.
...Um.  Not saying anything > saying something without a bulging white circle?  I find your priorities rather...odd.
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So you think this is worth considering as well as the nature of the action itself?
I think the action itself is, like killing a hostile orc or a Priest of Talos, morally neutral.  Whether the fact that you're killing at Edwin's behest makes the killing evil or not, I'm not sure of, but if it doesn't, then nothing does and the action is not evil.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2004, 05:07:58 PM »
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Yes, they're stupider and less subtle, which is why they're a lot less dangerous--and usually less evil, too.  Currently you have it that it's just fine to kill a monster if it looks like an orc, but not if it looks like a man.
Really? You're forgetting that charging ahead killing Aerie before you've established her intent is evil. On the other hand, killing anything that's fairly blatantly trying to remove parts of your anatomy seems acceptable.

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In any case, what happens during the final Temple of Lathander stronghold quest?  Do you lose Virtue for killing them then?
A while back someone brought this up, and I altered it so that you don't lose Virtue for killing them. They turn hostile first, incidentally.

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...Um.  Not saying anything > saying something without a bulging white circle?  I find your priorities rather...odd.
NPCs saying something is to me superior to a disembodied voice saying something.

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I think the action itself is, like killing a hostile orc or a Priest of Talos, morally neutral.  Whether the fact that you're killing at Edwin's behest makes the killing evil or not, I'm not sure of, but if it doesn't, then nothing does and the action is not evil.
Yes, I think it comes down to a similar situation to the Talosians: murdering someone who's minding their own business but has connections to a fairly nasty organisation.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2004, 05:19:29 PM »
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Yes, they're stupider and less subtle, which is why they're a lot less dangerous--and usually less evil, too.  Currently you have it that it's just fine to kill a monster if it looks like an orc, but not if it looks like a man.
Really? You're forgetting that charging ahead killing Aerie before you've established her intent is evil.
On the contrary, that's exactly the point.  Orcs who attack you are monsters.  The Priests of Talos, as any PC with a rudimentary knowledge of Talos' doctrine should know, are monsters.  Aerie, whatever she looks like, is not a monster.
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NPCs saying something is to me superior to a disembodied voice saying something.
And the presence or absence of the "bulging white circle" makes the critical difference to whether you view the NPC as actually saying something?  I see.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2004, 05:22:17 PM »
On the contrary, that's exactly the point.  Orcs who attack you are monsters.  The Priests of Talos, as any PC with a rudimentary knowledge of Talos' doctrine should know, are monsters.  Aerie, whatever she looks like, is not a monster.
But is it not being rather assertive? You're charging ahead killing priests of Talos without them actually doing anything nasty you can see, just as you charge ahead killing an ogre (Aerie) that's not doing anything particularly dangerous.

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And the presence or absence of the "bulging white circle" makes the critical difference to whether you view the NPC as actually saying something?  I see.
Yes. It's fairly evident that all other lines of this nature are accompanied by a bulging circle. Some not having them is going to look odd indeed.

Offline Kish

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2004, 05:34:36 PM »
On the contrary, that's exactly the point.  Orcs who attack you are monsters.  The Priests of Talos, as any PC with a rudimentary knowledge of Talos' doctrine should know, are monsters.  Aerie, whatever she looks like, is not a monster.
But is it not being rather assertive? You're charging ahead killing priests of Talos without them actually doing anything nasty you can see, just as you charge ahead killing an ogre (Aerie) that's not doing anything particularly dangerous.
Being a priest of Talos is a choice--being an ogre isn't.  Aside from knowing exactly what the Priests of Talos have dedicated themselves to, you can talk to them and they will confirm that they despise goodness and believe in hatred, chaos, and destruction.  Without the limitations of a computer game, you'd also be able to go to the Temple of Lathander or the Order of the Radiant Heart and ask them what the Temple of Talos has been doing lately, if you were unclear on exactly what "minding their own business" means to followers of the Raging One.

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Yes. It's fairly evident that all other lines of this nature are accompanied by a bulging circle.
Oh, I see.  They've never all had that circle in my games.
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Offline jester

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Re: Virtue goes up too much!
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2004, 06:51:54 PM »
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The people they seize--whether for defending themselves or for using a Tenser's Floating Disk--disappear forever without trial and with their fates never being revealed to anyone else.  They don't answer even to the already-corrupt government of Athkatla, and when they discover an innocent man is the key to accessing the giant sphere that offers them a chance to enhance their power, they send a goon squad to bring him back dead or alive.  Not particularly evil?

Apart from the somewhat racist approach that you can kill anything and anyone along the way as long as it qualifies as a 'monster' and still stay on the good side, I do think that they are an evil organization, but not more so than the Shadow thieves who use your goon squad to do their dirty work. If I had to choose to work for the CWs or the STs I would call it a draw morally.The Talos priests deserve to die because they are evil? Does the same apply to Vic?

For me Spellhold is more like Guantanamo. Detainees are there to be softened up and questioned for the greater good of the Amnish citizens.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 06:53:37 PM by jester »
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