Comments on "Short stories..."

[discharger12]

Er, I don't get the first story. What's with the chocolate and milk?

MAKE COMMENTS! 

[Bri]

The first should have been giving more background, though those who saw it at the Attic knows the story.  There was a Quiz by the name "Tempus Fugit" (literally "Time Flies") and was meant to be about the flow of time.

This story, however, didn't exactly fit in with it, and was rather more of a parody...with Tempus being the God of War...and the very poorly done Fudge-it.

[Userunfriendly]

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=846

here is the story in its horrible, stinky and utterly funny glory...

[cliffette]

I've commented on a couple of these before, so I'll just comment on the ones that I haven't responded to yet

My Brother's Keeper - Nice cliffhanger ending, though I'd imagine that Imoen would choose to remain mortal. The death of Daxon was... vivid. The only part I didn't get was this  - "her friend Aerie holding a bundle close to her breast, a singular silvery tear." Was the tear describing the shape of the bundle, or was it meant to be running down her cheek?



Late To Class - The imp alarm clock.. and the associated pun... all I can say is *heavy sigh*  . The imp can thank his lucky stars that the clock didn't come with a snooze function!. As for the final pun.. *heavy sigh* again Very enjoyable! One of the "your"s should be a "you're".

   Arabella shook her head, and thought, Wake up girl, your going to be late as it is.  You can grab something to pick you up as you go to class.

[Moreina]

Bri:
     I found the endings of all the pieces rather weak. They don't give the impression the story has, you know, ended. They pitter off with an ellipsis and that's it. I understand you're trying to get a 'cliffhanger' going at the end of most of these stories, but "..." does not automatically leave the reader with that feeling. It just leaves them thinking, "Uh, okay. I guess it COULD be over. Maybe."

[Bri]

My Brother's Keeper - Nice cliffhanger ending, though I'd imagine that Imoen would choose to remain mortal. The death of Daxon was... vivid. The only part I didn't get was this  - "her friend Aerie holding a bundle close to her breast, a singular silvery tear." Was the tear describing the shape of the bundle, or was it meant to be running down her cheek?

Most likely came from a copy that I thought I had edited, and didn't.  The tear wasn't in the shape of a bundle.  That would make little sense.

Late To Class - The imp alarm clock.. and the associated pun... all I can say is *heavy sigh*  . The imp can thank his lucky stars that the clock didn't come with a snooze function!. As for the final pun.. *heavy sigh* again  Very enjoyable! One of the "your"s should be a "you're".

LOL...I forget who made the same comment on the snooze button as well.

[Bri]

I found the endings of all the pieces rather weak. They don't give the impression the story has, you know, ended. They pitter off with an ellipsis and that's it.

You're right on some of the stories.  Conclusions can be the toughest part to finish a story with.  However, I can honestly say that most stories I read, the endings are also less than satisfactory as well.

[Moreina]

I found the endings of all the pieces rather weak. They don't give the impression the story has, you know, ended. They pitter off with an ellipsis and that's it.

You're right.  Conclusions can be the toughest part to finish a story with.  However, I can honestly say that most stories I read, the endings are also less than satisfactory as well.

     So this makes it okay to have an unsatisfactory ending? "Everyone else has bad endings" is a bad excuse. Be strong, break away from the pack. Write a few good endings.

[Ghreyfain]

Of the two I read-- The Aerie one and the Imoen vs. Quayle Jr. one-- I liked both endings.  The former just couldn't go anywhere else, so it needed to trail off, since it'd already left its impression on the reader, and the last one really was a cliffhanger.  Then again, I seem to be the only person to enjoy "unsatisfactory" endings to stories, so your mileage may vary.

[BevH]

You're not the only one, Ghreyfain.  I liked the endings as well.  And as for the ending to Tempus Fudge-it, well, it's hard to say anything else when you're a chocolate bunny.

[Regullus]

Bri:
     I found the endings of all the pieces rather weak. They don't give the impression the story has, you know, ended. They pitter off with an ellipsis and that's it. I understand you're trying to get a 'cliffhanger' going at the end of most of these stories, but "..." does not automatically leave the reader with that feeling. It just leaves them thinking, "Uh, okay. I guess it COULD be over. Maybe."

  I enjoyed all the stories and while the ellipses are a Bri trademark in this batch of stories, I think they are  appropriate. For the simple reason that the stories do not end. Aerie will continue to live and struggle, Tempus is probably not confined indefinately,etc. The characters will live past the stories ends, so why not end in mid-sentence so to speak? I don't really find them cliffhangers, more a glimpse at a moment in the characters lives, or existence. If they ain't dead then the story ain't ended.

  Bri - Never commented on your stories before but I have always enjoyed them.

[Moreina]

  I enjoyed all the stories and while the ellipses are a Bri trademark in this batch of stories, I think they are  appropriate. For the simple reason that the stories do not end. Aerie will continue to live and struggle, Tempus is probably not confined indefinately,etc. The characters will live past the stories ends, so why not end in mid-sentence so to speak? I don't really find them cliffhangers, more a glimpse at a moment in the characters lives, or existence. If they ain't dead then the story ain't ended.

    Maybe the character's story has not ended, but what Bri has written has ended. If Bri has no intention of continuing, the reader should be made aware of this. "..." Just doesn't cut it.

[nurgles_herald]

Regullus, are you aware that you just pointed out one of the most important rules of Far Eastern Literature?
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Sorry, a bit of an interruption here---
Note: I preffer to call it "Far Western", though, simply because Japan/China etc. are far more important that Britain on a global scale.

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In Far Western literature, a story cannot be completed.  To complete a story would be like putting a finite end on reality itself.  You cannot end the universe; therefore, you cannot truly end a story.  For example: I know a lot of people who get really confused trying to understand the ending of 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon'.  However, as it is truly Far Western art, it doesn't end.  One can speculate about the fate of the girl, of the woman or the one not-dead dude as much as one wishes, but it simply doesn't matter. 

Far Western art is simply showing a slice of life, so to say.  For that reason, I applaud Bri's efforts and tut at Moreina in all her Eastern (again, speaking from Asia's perspective) folly.  It is understandable, of course, because we Americans have been so immersed in trash entertainment, all of which "end".  There's always a conclusion to American entertainment, which can hamper the effectiveness of the philosophical sequences.  IMHO, a story is better when frays are left hanging, when the world's future is not defined, because the future is never defined.  Fate really doesn't exist.  "There is no fate but which we make for ourselves" (sorry if I'm misquoting her; it's been, maybe, three years since I saw T2).  That's the kind of progressive call-to-action we need as poor, foolish Easterners.  But we'll never get it b/c Linda Hamill was excluded from T3.  Bah.

[Regullus]

 

    Maybe the character's story has not ended, but what Bri has written has ended. If Bri has no intention of continuing, the reader should be made aware of this. "..." Just doesn't cut it.

  Bri's part in Aerie's story and the rest is finished but the stories are not. Call me flexible or call me easy to please but if the author has a likeable tone and I enjoy the tale, hey, I will go along with it. I will suspend my belief or disbelief. How would you have ended the Immy the Bhaal heir tale? You might have a definite vision of her choice but maybe someone else takes the opposite conclusion? Bri has given the reader the freedom to imagine a conclusion. 

 In your "He Didn't Mean It" story. You ended your story with the herione, well, I don't want to spoil the ending for anyone, suffice to say your story ended but that does not mean that the herione does not change her mind or someone stops by a bar and meets a fiesty bard or any number of things. You meant her to return but well, who knows where the reader's point of view will take the story, or where the character's story might go after the final period.

Regullus, are you aware that you just pointed out one of the most important rules of Far Eastern Literature?
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  I would like to say, "duh, of course I knew that. My point exactly...but I must admit that I did not know that it was one of the fundamental precepts of "Far Western" literature. Seems like a fine rule to me. And a very interesting post too.

[Moreina]

 

    Maybe the character's story has not ended, but what Bri has written has ended. If Bri has no intention of continuing, the reader should be made aware of this. "..." Just doesn't cut it.

  Bri's part in Aerie's story and the rest is finished but the stories are not. Call me flexible or call me easy to please but if the author has a likeable tone and I enjoy the tale, hey, I will go along with it. I will suspend my belief or disbelief. How would you have ended the Immy the Bhaal heir tale? You might have a definite vision of her choice but maybe someone else takes the opposite conclusion? Bri has given the reader the freedom to imagine a conclusion. 

You miss my point, again.
Yes, the 'story' may not be finished. But as you stated, Bri's part in it is. Because her part is finished, the reader should be clued in to this. You can leave a reader to interpret as they wish without severe overuse of ellipsis. I have been informed that it is common practice to end a short story with an ellipsis. Maybe this is true, but I think Bri needs to take a second look at if she's really trying to 'leave it open' or if she's using it as a crutch because she can't write better conclusions to her stories. I mean, come on. Even the Subject Line ends in "..." I think combined with the fact that all the stories in "Short Stories..." end the same way clues us in to the fact that Bri probably finds it difficult to write proper story endings, or she's stuck in a rut. All I'm suggesting is that maybe she should take a second look to make sure, as I said, she's not using it as a crutch.

[Domi]

I think that the ending of "Ties That Bind" has the right combination of suspence and clarity - at least for me. The way the character breaks down and runs fits well with the tone of the story and makes it a bit ironic and, for me, provides a dark foreboding (by the combination of the overall scheme of the story and the ending). I know that she will not be able to run away.

Moreina, it may be easier to keep the discussion going if you provided the thoughts on why exactly each of the ending (or a specific endings, since I understand that your time is not limitless) is unsatisfactory for you as a reader and tell us what d'you think is missing for the feeling of completness.

[Regullus]

@Moreina:

  Actually,I do understand your point, and don't think it is a bad thing to ask Bri if that was what she intended. Or a bad thing that you felt the endings could be improved.

 My point, Bri in this collection ends elliptically, and I think in these stories it is appropriate. I was not bothered by the endings. I liked the endings. They did not strike me as sloppy or incomplete. I thought the collection was thematic and whether by design or accident fit well together.

 Of course, why I think anyone would be interested in my opinion is beyond me.

[JPS]

You miss my point, again.
Yes, the 'story' may not be finished. But as you stated, Bri's part in it is. Because her part is finished, the reader should be clued in to this. You can leave a reader to interpret as they wish without severe overuse of ellipsis. I have been informed that it is common practice to end a short story with an ellipsis. Maybe this is true, but I think Bri needs to take a second look at if she's really trying to 'leave it open' or if she's using it as a crutch because she can't write better conclusions to her stories. I mean, come on. Even the Subject Line ends in "..." I think combined with the fact that all the stories in "Short Stories..." end the same way clues us in to the fact that Bri probably finds it difficult to write proper story endings, or she's stuck in a rut. All I'm suggesting is that maybe she should take a second look to make sure, as I said, she's not using it as a crutch.

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but it seems like this might require a drastic solution.

Hold out your right hand.

Extend your thumb.

Move your hand until your thumb covers tthe last two full stops in the offending ellipsis.

Repeat as needed.

[Bons]

At this point, the debate with regard to ellipses in this thread is beginning to run in circles, and I think it's time to reiterate what constitutes a constructive comment.

Moreina, your statements about Bri's strengths and weaknesses as a writer are subjective projections and read too much like personal attacks. Rather than guessing "Bri probably finds it difficult to write proper story endings" because you did not like how they ended, it would be more constructive to suggest a useful example of how the particular endings might be reworded for improvement, and explain the reasoning behind the suggestion persuasively.

For example, in the case of the first piece, I prefer the ellipsis ending, though I would tack on an exclamation point to match the emotion in Tempus's howl.

In the previous case, the last image I had of Tempus was his experiencing an inexpressible surge of disbelief. The ellipsis captures that feeling. In "Allure of Heaven," I think the words themselves, describing Aerie's actions, reflect the conclusion. The ellipsis in the spoken words is fine. It intimates that Aerie is allowing her voice to trail off, perfectly appropriate. The final ellipsiis, however, feels extraneous to me here.

"But even a dreamer must awaken sometime..." I whisper, twisting the ring off my finger, laying it on the ground, the darkness enveloping it...

The darkness enveloping the ring is a good ending, and I think it would present a solid conclusion if it was slightly rearranged to read:

I twist the ring off my finger. "But even a dreamer must awaken sometime..." I whisper, laying the golden band on the ground, and I watch as the darkness envelops it.

I moved the action of taking off the ring to the beginning of the last paragraph because the last phrase in the original, "the darkness enveloping it..." shifts the subject of the action away from Aerie. To preserve the symmetry, I amended it to watching the darkness, but the end result still felt a bit like it was running on too long. In breaking up the phrases for ease of reading, I think the twisting off of the ring was the action in the group that could stand on its own. I believe that moving it to before the spoken phrase still retains the feel that Aerie is whispering as she takes off the ring.

My point here is not to ban people from saying, "Hey, I didn't like this," and "Hey, I don't agree with you." The point is this: when people do have criticism (or praise, even), offer some respectful building blocks to go with it. I emphasize the word "respectful" because JPS's sarcastic suggestion to Moreina was not appropriate or helpful to the discussion of fan fiction, either.

[JPS]

My point here is not to ban people from saying, "Hey, I didn't like this," and "Hey, I don't agree with you." The point is this: when people do have criticism (or praise, even), offer some respectful building blocks to go with it. I emphasize the word "respectful" because JPS's sarcastic suggestion to Moreina was not appropriate or helpful to the discussion of fan fiction, either.

Yes, you're right. It was more than a bit immature, and I apologize both to Moreina and the esteemed visitors and moderators of this board. I don't regret it at all, but it wont happen again.

[nurgles_herald]

My point here is not to ban people from saying, "Hey, I didn't like this," and "Hey, I don't agree with you." The point is this: when people do have criticism (or praise, even), offer some respectful building blocks to go with it. I emphasize the word "respectful" because JPS's sarcastic suggestion to Moreina was not appropriate or helpful to the discussion of fan fiction, either.

Yes, you're right. It was more than a bit immature, and I apologize both to Moreina and the esteemed visitors and moderators of this board. I don't regret it at all, but it wont happen again.

Now if only I could be so mature...

[Bons]

@nurgles_herald: That comment was not constructive, either.

Posts in this thread should be relevant to Bri's short stories.

[Perdita]

"But even a dreamer must awaken sometime..." I whisper, twisting the ring off my finger, laying it on the ground, the darkness enveloping it...

The darkness enveloping the ring is a good ending, and I think it would present a solid conclusion if it was slightly rearranged to read:

I twist the ring off my finger. "But even a dreamer must awaken sometime..." I whisper, laying the golden band on the ground, and I watch as the darkness envelops it.

For extra credit, in regards to your suggestion to add "I watch":
A friend of mine once pointed out to me that it is usually unnecessary to say "I saw," "I watched," "I noticed," etc.  It can be presumed that all experience is filtered though the POV character, so it's redundant to add such phrases.   

[jcompton]

In this circumstance, though, I think it does make a difference.

I whisper, laying the golden band on the ground, and I watch as the darkness envelops it.

In this case, my mental camera focuses as much on the narrator as on the darkness/band.

I whisper, laying the golden band on the ground, and the darkness envelops it.

Here, I'm focusing on the band/darkness.

[Perdita]

Yeah, you're right.  I didn't read it carefully enough.  Also second way is better parallel construction.