Author Topic: Thought Police?  (Read 24048 times)

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2004, 10:15:08 PM »
Edit: Oh, and don't argue that virtue shouldn't be affected in dreams because nothing apparent happens. That's using meta-game knowledge. Does your character know that nothing will happen? Personally, I don't think so.

So why should your character assume something will happen? It's a dream. Unlike the Hell Trials.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2004, 10:18:16 PM »
Would you want a paladin to guard you from evil if he acts like that in a dream that he's in?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2004, 10:35:31 PM »
How a paladin acts in a dream is completely irrelevant; I would never know or care.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2004, 10:37:16 PM by Kish »
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2004, 11:21:31 PM »
If you were a god who had the ability to know whether he was consciously choosing to be evil in his dreams, would you still want to grant him powers?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2004, 11:26:22 PM »
If I were a god, I'd hope I'd have enough sense not to worry about what my paladins were dreaming.

*points at thread title*
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 12:03:09 AM by Kish »
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2004, 01:10:00 AM »
Would you worry about what they're doing while visiting Hell?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2004, 01:11:46 AM »
Yes.
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2004, 01:13:02 AM »
What's the difference?
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline mcruz

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
  • Gender: Male
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2004, 02:07:38 AM »
In the Hell Trials for instance you can sacrifice one of your companions so you won't be affected, while if you were to do this in a dream the consequences wouldn't be as clear (for certain your companion would most likely be okay), plus in the Nine Hells the PC and company are pretty much fighting for their survival and in the dreams it seems more like an inner struggle if anything.
"Somethings are worth waiting for"

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2004, 02:52:20 AM »
What's the difference?
What's the difference between something done in a dream and something done in reality?  What's the difference between a donut and a piano?
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline Lord Doomhammer

  • Overlord of Fools
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 113
  • Gender: Male
  • bruce Willis is an ugly, ugly man
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2004, 03:09:45 AM »
Quote
What's the difference between something done in a dream and something done in reality? What's the difference between a donut and a piano?

Hmmm... What is the difference between a donut and a piano? No, dont tell me. Ill get it....

Err... anyway. Id have to agree that what you do in dreams is completely irrelevant to to real life.

And no. im not giving any reasons. im not so good at that....
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 03:11:58 AM by Lord Doomhammer »
So full of hate!

"I.. have.. come.. to.. em.. ploy.. you.. in.. my.. fac.. tory.. in.. starns.. bury."

Also answers to 'Lord Schicksalhammer'

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2004, 05:03:22 AM »
This = not a normal dream = taint-related dream = conscious sumbission to taint. A powerful Bhaalspawn giving in to his inner essence is going to have rather awkward consequences in the real world.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2004, 05:09:27 AM »
This = not a normal dream = taint-related dream = conscious sumbission to taint. A powerful Bhaalspawn giving in to his inner essence is going to have rather awkward consequences in the real world.

Round and round it goes...
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2004, 05:28:44 AM »
Saying that I think that 'Virtue' is the uintessential addition to BG2 is redundant. (I have said it so many times it might as well be in my sig :P). I still think that the implementeation should be continually discussed, if something arises that is not obvious in reasoning, or at least explained. The way it is implemented in my view it is on a trigger on certain actions which depends on a case to case judgement.

I agree that the Hell Trials have consequences and are a different reality, but your dead father offers you something in the cameo as Irenicus. He offers you the gift that is contained in your taint for the first time. This is where you find out for the first time what is offered to you as a person. This gives a good character the opportunity AFTER waking up to reject this and fight this. (I know rivers of blood and stuff, but now we are talking pesonal development).

Someone: Do you want it?
Someone else: Yes
Someone: Wow, because it is like you know so awesome and everything. You could kill all theses people with a high level mage spell, even if you are a ranger.
Someone else: oh that is not so good, then I'd rather not and have some tea instead.

This dream triggers the awareness process and roleplaying doubts should not make you fall in a dream this early. In Hell you know what the taint really is and what the Slayer is. I am not arguing that your consequences depend on your knowledge, I am rather doubting the consciuous choice.

That would be a conscious choice!
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Ghreyfain

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4705
  • Gender: Male
    • Pocket Plane Group
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2004, 01:15:25 PM »
What's the difference between something done in a dream and something done in reality?

You mean what's the difference between a manifestation of the PC's imagination, and a manifestation of the PC's imagination?  Not terribly much, in my opinion. :)

Quote
What's the difference between a donut and a piano?

Both can be used to commit acts of monstrous evil.  Poison a donut and give it to your enemy.  Sabotage a piano that your enemy's about to play on--Oh wait, those are similarities.  Hmmm, differences.  Well, one is a delicious pastry treat, and the other can be used to crush stuff if you drop it from height.
Earn Money Sleeping.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2004, 01:40:25 PM »
What's the difference between something done in a dream and something done in reality?

You mean what's the difference between a manifestation of the PC's imagination, and a manifestation of the PC's imagination?
Is that what I mean?  Funny, it looks close to the exact opposite of what I mean.  Although I must admit to being impressed by your ability to convince yourself that it makes sense that the "PC's imagination" somehow beats up Sarevok (who remembers it happening afterward), potentially gets up to five companions killed, and potentially brings Blackrazor, the Nymph Cloak, and a lot of potions out of Hell--excuse me, out of the "manifestation of the PC's imagination."
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2004, 02:07:15 PM »
A dreamcatcher question:

Your girlfriend wakes up and admits that she dreamed last night that she slept with Brad Pitt. And he was simply stunning to say the least.

Tick the appropriate:

a) You break up with her, because actions follow your thoughts and she already betrayed you in her mind. It has yet to happen in RL, but it is all downhill from here.
b) You break up with her, because even thinking about it is crime enough for you.
c) You see it as a hint for future endeavours in your relationship and sign up at a local gym.
d) You stay together, because your dreams are personal and so are hers.

I suspect that anyone with the answers a and b should see a shrink, a priest or/and get rid of that Salma Hayek poster just in case you and your next GF are kindred spirits.


..and saying that a dream is the manifestation of your imagination just like your actions are a real life manifestation of your will won't hold in court (Although the free will debate is very much alive).

I repeat: 'I did not want to have sex with THAT women.'

I can only beg anyone to dream about the huge pile of cash I find tomorrow morning next to my bed. I'll keep you posted on this.

@ Sarevok remembering your fight in hell and the difference to a dream:
Does anyone remember the film The Cell? That is what is happening to Sarevok IMHO at least sort of. If your mind thinks you are hurt you are hurt. Not papercuts, but lethal blows do the job. Again the second dream is neither the Hell Trials nor a piano or donut. A huge character development and a completely different situation is presented to the player.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 02:11:33 PM by jester »
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2004, 04:31:59 PM »
Your girlfriend wakes up and admits that she dreamed last night that she slept with Brad Pitt. And he was simply stunning to say the least.
Your girlfriend is probably not suppressing a taint which threatens to consume her and make her sleep with every man on the planet, though.

On the other hand, I've come closest to being convinced by the argument that the player doesn't fully understand the nature of the taint until AFTER this dream, when he's witnessed the Slayer Change, etc.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2004, 04:36:05 PM »
I still think that the implementeation should be continually discussed, if something arises that is not obvious in reasoning, or at least explained.
It's got to the point where I have as much fun arguing over various issues in the Virtue forum as I ever would actually playing the mod, heheh.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2004, 04:47:28 PM »
Your girlfriend wakes up and admits that she dreamed last night that she slept with Brad Pitt. And he was simply stunning to say the least.
Your girlfriend is probably not suppressing a taint which threatens to consume her and make her sleep with every man on the planet, though.

So - if someone dreams about murdering someone they know, they're guilty? They could possibly murder that person. If someone dreams about sleeping with someone they know, they're guilty? They could possibly sleep with that person.

DREAMS ARE NOT REALITY. The Hell Trials are. They really happen, the PC is completely conscious during them, and the PC is told that s/he is being judged by them. All those people who "die" in the PC's dreams don't die. Anyone who dies in the Hell Trials does die.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2004, 04:56:33 PM »
I'll take the chance to reiterate my argument that these are not regular dreams, so the analogy is inappropriate.

The player is presented with dialog choices. Everywhere else in the game, this indicates the player character making a conscious choice. I don't believe this should be treated differently just because it's a dream.
The dreams are linked with the taint. Bioware didn't just put every random nightmare the player has in there; they're linked to plot development. There's probably a reason that you're shown nightmares about turning into the slayer and submitting to evil, but not Irenicus dancing about in dresses with low-cut tops.

Offline Kish

  • HEROISM OK
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • Oversight mod.
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2004, 04:57:07 PM »
On the other hand, I've come closest to being convinced by the argument that the player doesn't fully understand the nature of the taint until AFTER this dream, when he's witnessed the Slayer Change, etc.
There is little doubt in my mind that anyone who's been through BG1 would fully understand the nature of the taint.  However, I would point to this thread as compelling evidence that the PC could quite easily believe that the dream where Irenicus offers him/her power has nothing to do with the taint.
Beauty standing amidst fiery destruction.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2004, 05:01:02 PM »
Equally, you can believe that Aerie's an ogre, yet you still get a Virtue drop for slaughtering her mercilessly. If, as I maintain, the character is making a conscious choice here, I think that failing to consider all of the possibilities is insufficient justification for it being acceptable.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2004, 05:28:27 PM »
Equally, you can believe that Aerie's an ogre, yet you still get a Virtue drop for slaughtering her mercilessly. If, as I maintain, the character is making a conscious choice here, I think that failing to consider all of the possibilities is insufficient justification for it being acceptable.

If you slaughter Aerie mercilessly, she's dead for real. No one can possibly die in the dreams.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline SimDing0

  • Back In Black
  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3496
  • Gender: Male
  • Word Enhancer
Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2004, 05:34:44 PM »
But they still have consequences because of the whole taint deal.

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What color is grass?:
What is the seventh word in this sentence?:
What is five minus two (use the full word)?: