Author Topic: Thought Police?  (Read 24816 times)

Offline jester

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Thought Police?
« on: June 01, 2004, 02:50:25 PM »
I just lost my paladin status after the second Irenicus dream. How is that possible? I want my minority report.  :-\
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Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2004, 02:52:47 PM »
You said the wrong thing.  For once, I agree with you--you shouldn't Fall for what you say in a dream--but Sim disagrees.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2004, 03:10:43 PM »
if it's the one I'm thinking of, I think it's rather devious to be able to admit "I deserve power because of what I am" and go on as if nothing happened when you wake up; ergo, a paladin should fall.
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Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2004, 03:21:17 PM »
You said the wrong thing.  For once, I agree with you--you shouldn't Fall for what you say in a dream--but Sim disagrees.
Well I know what I did, but the reason for this post was to complain that it is a tricky question to include your dreams into the virtue concept. It seems reasonable at first, because you choose your answers from a list just like during the rest of the game, but is a murder you dreamed of the same as a murder in reality ? ??? Your choice of replies does not represent anything you actually do or plan on doing during your waking hours.

Think about all the possibilities and I do not think it is devious to act contrary to your character in a dream. It is not temptation but action that shapes your virtue. If I dream that my superior paladin is eaten by Firkraag, because he made me clean all the urinals in Athkathla, I am not guilty of anything, or am I.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 03:36:33 PM by jester »
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




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Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2004, 03:37:54 PM »
Indeed, I would venture that if we're having the PC Fall for what s/he says in a dream, every paladin should Fall after a randomly determined amount of time in the game, since only an elf (who doesn't sleep and therefore doesn't dream in the conventional sense) is likely to never have a dream in which s/he says or does something unpaladinly.
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Offline mcruz

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2004, 03:38:23 PM »
I guess I have to kinda agree with Jester........i mean you can't really control what happens in your dreams (except of course in BG II)  :)
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2004, 04:08:42 PM »
But you obviously can control what happens. The issue is whether this is a conscious choice made by the character, or something the player decides just happens to them ingame. I argue the former, since I can't think of a single other incidence where dialog options represent the player making a decision but not the character.

And for anyone who wants to suggest that wanting power is not evil: you're clearly shown the consequences of your choice, and Virtue allows you to express an interest in power but not the suffering it brings.

Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2004, 04:15:55 PM »
You can sometimes control your dreams, actually. They still don't have any impact on the real world. The question is: does the character believe this isn't really a dream or does s/he think it has as much impact as that weird one in which Gorion and Imoen tangoed together? Further, what actually happens if the character makes an "evil" choice in the dream? Does any real person actually get hurt? If not, I don't think a paladin should fall.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2004, 04:22:26 PM »
"Really?  But the consequences are so very real."

"Your actions affect so many others than yourself."

Take this literally and it's fairly self-explanatory. Take it non-literally, and the player is still aware that the choice in the dream is going to affect who he becomes and what he does.

Incidentally, let's dig up a parallel: in the hell trials, the evil path for dealing with the Sarevok is giving in to the taint and growing angry. You're not harming anyone you wouldn't have harmed anyway, yet it's evil because you succumb to the taint.

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2004, 04:29:11 PM »
"Really?  But the consequences are so very real."

"Your actions affect so many others than yourself."

Take this literally and it's fairly self-explanatory. Take it non-literally, and the player is still aware that the choice in the dream is going to affect who he becomes and what he does.
Aware?  The player is "aware" of that only if s/he assumes that what Irenicus says in a dream is to be believed--a bizarre assumption.  Without the Virtue mod, the dream has no impact on anything ever, which would mean the PC is "aware" of something that isn't true, suggesting that "aware" is the wrong word.

For that matter, one of those lines only shows up after s/he has chosen, and the other is a general statement that does not appear to me to be referring just to the dream (indeed, I would contend that what happens in a dream is not "actions" and therefore it doesn't refer to the dream at all).
Quote
Incidentally, let's dig up a parallel: in the hell trials, the evil path for dealing with the Sarevok is giving in to the taint and growing angry. You're not harming anyone you wouldn't have harmed anyway, yet it's evil because you succumb to the taint.
That happens while the PC is awake.  It's not a dream.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 04:37:35 PM by Kish »
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2004, 04:52:06 PM »
Aware?  The player is "aware" of that only if s/he assumes that what Irenicus says in a dream is to be believed--a bizarre assumption.  Without the Virtue mod, the dream has no impact on anything ever, which would mean the PC is "aware" of something that isn't true, suggesting that "aware" is the wrong word.
The player is expressing his intent to give in to the taint. Giving in to the taint is going to have consequences in the real world, because you're going to do nasty things like turning into the Slayer. Whether or not the mechanics of vanilla BG2 enforce consequences for the choice in the dream, the consequences really ARE so very real, regardless of whether the player believes Irenicus.
And if you're saying that submitting to the taint here does not equate to submitting to the taint while awake, I'd draw your attention to the Slayer dream, which precedes actually gaining the ability. I'd call that pretty real consequences.

Quote
That happens while the PC is awake.  It's not a dream.
It's not real either (in fact, is the player actually awake, or is his mind just elsewhere while his body is in Suldanesselar?). And you're still operating on the assumption that it being a dream means it's insignificant. I disagree. Like I said, I think the character is making a conscious choice.

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2004, 04:56:24 PM »
It's not real either
What?
Quote
(in fact, is the player actually awake, or is his mind just elsewhere while his body is in Suldanesselar?).
Either way, Sarevok remembers it happening in ToB.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2004, 05:00:01 PM »
What?
The Hell Trials are a manifestation of your own mind, no?

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2004, 05:03:22 PM »
No.  They're not.  You're in what becomes your Pocket Plane in ToB--whether your body is there or not--interacting with other real entities, including several items you can bring out of Hell with you and one entity (Sarevok) who will agree in ToB that, yes, he remembers you beating up his Wraith.  Your will shapes them because your blood rules there, not because they're "not real."
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2004, 05:09:18 PM »
Right, okay. So the consequences are "so very real" there as well. :)

Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2004, 05:23:28 PM »
Right, okay. So the consequences are "so very real" there as well. :)

Take out the "as well" and I'd agree. Just because your mind is creating someone who seems to be Irenicus (and whom I don't think really is) to "test" you, that doesn't mean anything to anyone but yourself. A paladin could actually be scared enough by his or her dreaming self saying "I deserve power because of what I am" that s/he would choose to be even better in the future.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2004, 05:27:10 PM »
And I'm still saying that this isn't a conventional dream, but one where you consciously give in to the Slayer, and one which does have real consequences. See comparison with Slayer Change dream (although you don't get any choice there).

Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2004, 05:55:48 PM »
And I'm still saying that this isn't a conventional dream, but one where you consciously give in to the Slayer, and one which does have real consequences. See comparison with Slayer Change dream (although you don't get any choice there).
That is exactly the point. The Slayer change is something forced upon you by the void left by your stolen soul. Talking about nasty consequences of choices made during your life does not precipitate anything in the game. I could say that I will eat his underwear and kill all the kids the patch would let me, but nothing is going to happen in reality. Where are the real consequences in this second dream?

The slayer form is your curse. Apart from the occasions where you change against your will, using your powers is optional. Falling for this is mandatory, although you could argue on a different note that it has a shapechanger component to it and you could use your new form to protect the innocent and uphold the law.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2004, 05:59:57 PM »
That is exactly the point. The Slayer change is something forced upon you by the void left by your stolen soul. Talking about nasty consequences of choices made during your life does not precipitate anything in the game. I could say that I will eat his underwear and kill all the kids the patch would let me, but nothing is going to happen in reality. Where are the real consequences in this second dream?
You don't see any implicit consequences. So what? And these dreams aren't just any old random dreams about consequences of your actions. They seem pretty related to the taint, and indeed the plot of the game, to me.

Quote
The slayer form is your curse. Apart from the occasions where you change against your will, using your powers is optional. Falling for this is mandatory, although you could argue on a different note that it has a shapechanger component to it and you could use your new form to protect the innocent and uphold the law.
The Slayer form is submission to the taint. Otherwise, it wouldn't warrant a Virtue drop any more than casting Polymorph Self would.

Offline Bri

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2004, 07:01:03 PM »
I always viewed the dreams as another way of testing the Bhaalspawn.  And so if he gives into the power that is offered, that would be an evil choice in my eyes. 

Heh, and Kish, I have played in games where a paladin who did give into such emotions as revenge could possibly lose his abilities as well.  After all, in some real life religions, being guilty of thinking a sin is as bad as actually committing it.  So this means if you lust after someone, and then sleep with them, its almost like two sins for the price of one. 

Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2004, 07:51:12 PM »
After all, in some real life religions, being guilty of thinking a sin is as bad as actually committing it.

Yes, and that's one reason so many real-world religions are utterly ridiculous. Finding someone attractive and actually cheating on your spouse are two entirely different things in the real world.
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Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2004, 03:14:18 AM »
After all, in some real life religions, being guilty of thinking a sin is as bad as actually committing it.

Yes, and that's one reason so many real-world religions are utterly ridiculous. Finding someone attractive and actually cheating on your spouse are two entirely different things in the real world.
Yes, you should give these religions a very high no-thank-you rating.

True, you should fall for the Slayer, but not for dreaming of -drumroll- consequences. Or do you think it is the real Irenicus talking to you in your sleep? Isn't this just a projection brought about by Imoen's torture and the unbalancing of the force erm I mean the taint?.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2004, 08:24:33 PM »
I always thought of the "dreams" as interludes, as opposed to subconscious dreams, wherein the Bhaal taint/our soul was talking to Irenicus.

(and I still think you should loose virtue)
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Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2004, 10:08:33 PM »
When and how does that interlude happen? Can Irenicus summon you to the dream plane? He is not yet connected to your soul or the taint. Even for a wupass elven mageling that would be quite a thing. A dreamwalker sort of.

Another reason to use the cut dreams fix. It is a fool proof method to get your dreams as dreams and not pseudo mini-dramas or interludes. On a sidenote I thought interludes where the ones that furthered the plot showing what's happening at another location like spellhold and the underdark.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2004, 10:11:38 PM »
Okay, thought I'd post, since we're talking about this in chat anyways.

In the dream, your character appears to have self-awareness, seeing as how you get options in dialogue. But it's in a dream world, so virtue doesn't affect you?

Then in the Hell Trials, you are in a world that isn't "The Real World", seeing as how Ellesime mentions that you appeared dead for however long. Virtue is affected in this situation because your choices are made while the PC is completely aware. Whether they affect anything or not is irrelevant.

So now that my thoughts have wandered away while writing this post, I'll pretend it's done and finish it. Virtue loss/gain in real world = good, because of conscious choice, and possible consequences. Virtue loss/gain in dream worlds (Irenicus dreams/Hell Trials) = good, because of conscious choice, and possible consequences.

Edit: Oh, and don't argue that virtue shouldn't be affected in dreams because nothing apparent happens.  That's using meta-game knowledge.  Does your character know that nothing will happen?  Personally, I don't think so.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2004, 10:13:30 PM by Ghreyfain »
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