Author Topic: Thought Police?  (Read 25004 times)

Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2004, 04:25:36 PM »
Wait. What you're saying is that it's worse to say you want power in a dream with "probable" consequences (you haven't proven that there would be consequences yet, you've just asserted it) than honestly telling an actual, live person you want to be Lord of Murder, or purposefully hurting someone who cares about you. What you say in your head is important, but what you say to other conscious beings is not?
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2004, 04:36:34 PM »
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It's meant to be a summary of what you have Virtue enforcing.
But I'm telling you in no uncertain terms what I'm having Virtue enforcing. You just choose your explanation over mine.

And of course... feel free to continue ignoring everything I say about the dream choice being more significant than those you cite from the rest of the game because of the influence of the taint in the situation. :)

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What you're saying is that it's worse to say you want power in a dream with "probable" consequences (you haven't proven that there would be consequences yet, you've just asserted it) than honestly telling an actual, live person you want to be Lord of Murder, or purposefully hurting someone who cares about you.
Yes, I've asserted that allowing the essence of the dead Lord of Murder to take over you is likely to have evil-ish consequences. Oh my god!

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2004, 04:48:05 PM »
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It's meant to be a summary of what you have Virtue enforcing.
But I'm telling you in no uncertain terms what I'm having Virtue enforcing. You just choose your explanation over mine.
What the Virtue mod enforces is about what happens in the game--not about what's in your head.  You can tell me that a paladin Falls for saying "I deserve power" because whenever a paladin says that there is a fairy somewhere who falls down dead, if you want; I'm looking at the effect, not the intention.  (Incidentally, I wouldn't use the word "explanation," because that sounds like I'd addressing the intent, which I'm not.)  I realize that you believe saying "I deserve power" there is somehow worse than saying to Jaheira, "My rightful place is as the Lord of Murder and yours is to serve as my slave."  Your beliefs are not in question.
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And of course... feel free to continue ignoring everything I say about the dream choice being more significant than those you cite from the rest of the game because of the influence of the taint in the situation. :)
In the absence of any evidence to support the idea of the influence of the taint in the situation, thank you--I will.
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Yes, I've asserted that allowing the essence of the dead Lord of Murder to take over you is likely to have evil-ish consequences.
And you have asserted that saying "I deserve power" in that situation is equivalent to "allowing the essence of the dead Lord of Murder to take over you."
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What you say in your head is important, but what you say to other conscious beings is not?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2004, 05:10:04 PM by Kish »
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Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2004, 05:26:54 PM »
Bhaal used to be the Lord of Murder. His portfolio is already taken up by Cyric IIRC. So whatever you are (As said before I would prefer to be the God of sliced bread) gonna end up as is up to you after ascencion IMO.

The fact that even gods have alignments shows for me that there is a difference between a LE or a LG character to become a god. Is there any hint in the game (for those who know the game verbatim) that the essence turns anyone evil, if enough of it is amassed into one being? How could Balthazzar hope to succeed then?

I deserve power is as neutral as it gets when a mortal is presented with the choice in question.

BTW In a dream, even as lucid as yours, how can you assume all these people are innocents and not wolfweres or think about the commoners in Pai'Nai's lair. Only about the women who is killed by Irenicus do we learn anything. And another dilemma for the will fraction (boils down to the basic CRPG trouble), if this is my dream, why am I not hurting Irenicus at all?
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2004, 11:58:18 PM »
You keep acting as if the cut-scene dreams are like usual dreams.  In usual dreams, you don't act like you would while alive, but in these you obviously do, since the dialogue gives you more than one option with which to respond.

Assuming Irenicus sent you this dream, so as to awaken your power so that he can extract it more easily, do you think submitting to the taint is a Good thing to do?

Assuming it's the inner essence of Bhaal trying to awaken the slayer in you, do you think submitting to the taint is a Good thing to do?

You keep rehashing the same argument of "but you don't get a choice in dreams!", and I agree with you, that in regular dreams, yeah, you don't have a conscious say in what happens.  For all intents and purposes this should be considered something other than a dream.  Perhaps a job interview being held by the slayer.  Things you say in job interviews have great import, as do your responses in these particular dreams.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2004, 12:25:20 AM »
In usual dreams, you don't act like you would while alive, but in these you obviously do, since the dialogue gives you more than one option with which to respond.
That's a big jump you got there.  I don't know about you, but I generally make choices in dreams irl.  (I would, in fact, contend that being lectured by the mad wizard you're pursuing to kill and being unable to respond by jumping him in midsentence is very much "not acting like the PC would while awake.")
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For all intents and purposes this should be considered something other than a dream.
Why?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2004, 12:27:28 AM by Kish »
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2004, 12:31:52 AM »
Eh, I'm giving up arguing for my point in this thread, because I just argued it in IRC, and I've convinced myself thoroughly.

If you don't want to open your mind to my side of the argument, that's fine. :)
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Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2004, 02:41:49 AM »
Although I see yours and Sim's points, I still think that it is wrong to say that Jon wants to offer you the slayer as a gift. Otherwise his sister would not be surprised to see your change. IRC or not. :P His focus is on luring you to Spellhold to get hold of your powerful soul. My impression always has been that, if he knew what you would turn into he would have gone to greater lengths to ensure your demise after Spellhold. Talking about hybris.

I was not arguing that the choice shouldn't make you fall, if it is not OOC to assume you know what you are deciding upon.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2004, 01:16:10 PM »
What the Virtue mod enforces is about what happens in the game--not about what's in your head. You can tell me that a paladin Falls for saying "I deserve power" because whenever a paladin says that there is a fairy somewhere who falls down dead, if you want; I'm looking at the effect, not the intention.  (Incidentally, I wouldn't use the word "explanation," because that sounds like I'd addressing the intent, which I'm not.)  I realize that you believe saying "I deserve power" there is somehow worse than saying to Jaheira, "My rightful place is as the Lord of Murder and yours is to serve as my slave."  Your beliefs are not in question.
Shall I remove the Slayer Change virtue drop then? Since there's nothing actually happenning in the game to justify it, but merely your belief of what the result is likely to be. I see a parallel here.

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In the absence of any evidence to support the idea of the influence of the taint in the situation, thank you--I will.
Dreams you get shown seem fairly clearly to do with taint, ever since BG1 when you even got an ability after them.

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And you have asserted that saying "I deserve power" in that situation is equivalent to "allowing the essence of the dead Lord of Murder to take over you."
Yeh.

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What you say in your head is important, but what you say to other conscious beings is not?
If what you say in your head is more likely to have grave consequences.

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In a dream, even as lucid as yours, how can you assume all these people are innocents and not wolfweres or think about the commoners in Pai'Nai's lair.
The woman Irenicus talks about is described fairly thoroughly as someone not deserving of death. The others are fairly likely to be similar.

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I was not arguing that the choice shouldn't make you fall, if it is not OOC to assume you know what you are deciding upon.
Taken from a purely in-character perspective, having a weird dream is something to be treated carefully, given that the player knows he got abilities after dreams in BG1. Now, if the player gets a Virtue drop for rushing forward and killing Aerie without thinking, it seems reasonable to say that he should get one for accepting the power of the taint (which, as I said, is fairly clearly what Irenicus offers you in the dream, given that me mentions your heritage and so on in the same breath, and has already expressed a similar interest) without giving full consideration to the consequences (a bunch of commonners getting napalmed, which is fairly representative of bad stuff happenning even if not taken literally).

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2004, 01:40:07 PM »
Shall I remove the Slayer Change virtue drop then? Since there's nothing actually happenning in the game to justify it, but merely your belief of what the result is likely to be.
Nothing?  Going berserk and attacking your friends=nothing?
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In the absence of any evidence to support the idea of the influence of the taint in the situation, thank you--I will.
Dreams you get shown seem fairly clearly to do with taint, ever since BG1 when you even got an ability after them.
Dreams you get shown?  That's an entirely OOC consideration.  The PC has no way of knowing whether the player can see his/her dreams, unless you contend that the PC never dreams without the dream appearing on the screen and having to do with the taint.
Nor is it "fairly clear" even from an OOC perspective.  The dream could be sent by Irenicus, or it could be meant to show what's going on inside the PC's head.  The fact that all six shown dreams in BG1 were about developing Bhaal powers is not evidence that every dream that ever appears on the screen will be about being a child of Bhaal.  Incidentally, do you think the dream where the PC meets Ellesime is also about the taint?  It fits your criterion of "[a dream] you get shown," and it pushes you to get your soul back and help Suldanesselar, which of course is exactly what Bhaal would want you to do.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2004, 01:43:38 PM by Kish »
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2004, 01:50:23 PM »
Nothing?  Going berserk and attacking your friends=nothing?
Didn't happen to me. You assert it as a likely consequence.

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That's an entirely OOC consideration.  The PC has no way of knowing whether the player can see his/her dreams, unless you contend that the PC never dreams without the dream appearing on the screen and having to do with the taint.
My exact point is that the PC probably does dream aside from those we're shown, which means those we ARE shown must have some relevance to the story.

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Nor is it "fairly clear" even from an OOC perspective.  The dream could be sent by Irenicus, or it could be meant to show what's going on inside the PC's head.  The fact that all six shown dreams in BG1 were about developing Bhaal powers is not evidence that every dream that ever appears on the screen will be about being a child of Bhaal.
If all previous dreams are about being a child of Bhaal, isn't it fair to assume that the one at hand is also likely to be? From both an IC or OOC perspective. On the other hand, I see nothing to support your argument that this suddenly isn't about being a child of Bhaal.

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Incidentally, do you think the dream where the PC meets Ellesime is also about the taint?  It fits your criterion of "[a dream] you get shown," and it pushes you to get your soul back and help Suldanesselar, which of course is exactly what Bhaal would want you to do.
This is the last dream you get in SoA, so it doesn't affect what and IC player should be thinking about the previous ones.
However, your you are linked to Irenicus via your soul. What's wrong with a drive to reclaim it?

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2004, 02:09:16 PM »
Nothing?  Going berserk and attacking your friends=nothing?
Didn't happen to me. You assert it as a likely consequence.
No, I assert it as, "...huh.  Didn't happen to you?  Then that's a bug, unless you were soloing."
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My exact point is that the PC probably does dream aside from those we're shown, which means those we ARE shown must have some relevance to the story.
Relevance to the story?  Sure.  Connection to the taint?  No.
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If all previous dreams are about being a child of Bhaal, isn't it fair to assume that the one at hand is also likely to be?
No.  It makes no sense to assume, "Oh, I had six dreams about being a child of Bhaal.  Now every dream I have ever will be about being a child of Bhaal."  Six is not enough for a representative sample of dreams.  For that matter, the assumption in question is not true (the final dream, with Ellesime) even if you're right about the particular dream in question.
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However, your you are linked to Irenicus via your soul. What's wrong with a drive to reclaim it?
You reclaiming it is the absolute last thing Bhaal would want, with you going out of your way to stop people from being murdered as next-to-last.
And your claim was an entirely OOC "if we see the dream, it has to do with the taint."  If there's ever one dream in all of SoA where that is demonstrably not the case, then it's not true.  So do you think the last dream has to do with the taint?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2004, 02:42:41 PM by Kish »
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2004, 02:11:55 PM »
And your claim was an entirely OOC "if we see the dream, it has to do with the taint."  If there's ever one dream in all of SoA where that is demonstrably not the case, then it's not true.  So do you think the last dream has to do with the taint?
I reckon it's about a certain drive to reclaim your soul, wherever that comes from.
Um. And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what's OOC about "I've seen 6 dreams which are about the taint; this one probably is as well."

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2004, 02:13:55 PM »
That's a logical fallacy called Hasty Generalization, actually.  "I don't speak French.  You don't speak French.  Neriana doesn't speak French.  I must therefore conclude no one on the forum speaks French."*  I contend that it is inappropriate to force the PC to act according to logical fallacies.

*I don't actually know if you or Neriana speak French.
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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2004, 02:18:22 PM »
So in spite of the consistency of what's happened so far, the PC should ignore this? If everyone I'd met so far on the forum spoke French, I'd assume that a newcomer would until they told me otherwise. Yet I don't see anything to convince me that the dream isn't about the taint.

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2004, 02:21:25 PM »
So in spite of the consistency of what's happened so far, the PC should ignore this? If everyone I'd met so far on the forum spoke French, I'd assume that a newcomer would until they told me otherwise.
Even if you'd only met six people?  You must be used to being disappointed often.

I concede I cannot offer a logical proof to someone who doesn't see anything illogical in one of the classic fallacies.
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2004, 02:23:21 PM »
I see illogical, but I think you overestimate its weight. Where there's little evidence either way, I'm inclined to go with the more probable explanation; to me, this means consistency in this situation.

Offline seanas

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2004, 04:24:43 PM »
but whether the dream in question is 'real' or not  is not a question of inductive fallacies, Kish, but of verisimilitude. it's only an inductive fallacy IF it's compared with a  normative 'RL' experience of dreams. in that context, if i had even a dozen consecutive dreams that bore a direct relation upon my woken life, i *still* wouldnt expect the 13th to have such a relation.

but this is a false comparison: the question of truth is not 'how true to RL is the experience of the Irenicus dreams' but 'how true to the narrative'. and within the context of the narrative, as greyfain argued and i asserted, nothing happens that isn't part of the narrative: so if yr having a dream within BGII *and it's represented to you the player* then its necessarily connected to the narrative. and given that the narrative driver of the BG series is 'the PC's relation to their taint' (or perhaps 'the PC's possession of the taint') then any sequence - dream or not-dream - where yr presented with choices is going to bear upon the taint. so whether you tell the Solar in TOB 'i will claim my heritage' or Jaheira 'you should be my slave' or a dream-Irenicus 'i deserve power', yr - within the narrative - submitting to the taint. that might not bear upon yr reputation - cos no-one else sees it - or upon yr alignment - cos, err, the alignment system is bollocks - but it should bear upon a judgement of morality - which is what Virtue is concerned with.

as i said before: i choose to have my PC behave in ways that are neither virtuous, nor - frankly - good (i agree fully with you in that regard, Jester), but because a: the alignment system is so crap; and b: i'm careful not to install Virtue (or at least until i can hack Kit.ids to allow a sword angel within a BP install: but that's a discussion for a different forum  :P) my PC doesnt have to bear the consequences of my playing style. but if i had a morality-mod installed [in the game] and i asserted my will-to-power [in the game] in the way Jester described at the start of the thread, then i would expect [in the game] to bear the consequences of behaving so unVirtuously (assumng that's a real word!  :))
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Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2004, 05:17:15 PM »
*I don't actually know if you or Neriana speak French.

I do, a little. I can read it :)

Sim: I don't know any Chinese people. Therefore they don't really exist.

Maybe the dream is about the taint. That does not prove that choosing the power option makes you more tainted, because it's still a dream and nothing in it affects the real world. It is certainly an important part of the exposition of the narrative. But it's still a dream. Dreams are outside morality because they do not impact the real world. I don't care whether it's a fantasy world or not, anything that only takes place inside your head should not impact virtue judgements. I don't even care whether the person in question is conscious or not. Imagination should not be policed.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2004, 05:23:08 PM »
Bhaal used to be the Lord of Murder. His portfolio is already taken up by Cyric IIRC. So whatever you are (As said before I would prefer to be the God of sliced bread) gonna end up as is up to you after ascencion IMO.

Bhaal's portfolio was Death, taken by Cyric, but now owned by Kelemvor. :)

If you became a deity I'd assume you'd take Death as your portfolio (similar to Xvim inheriting Hatred and so on from his father Bane). This *is* allowed providing the PC only becomes a lesser deity, which is likely since you'd have almost no worshippers.

That's a little off - topic, but what I'm saying is, you could still become a God of Death. :)
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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2004, 01:51:55 AM »
Sim: I don't know any Chinese people. Therefore they don't really exist.
Six chinese people walk into a room. I assume the next is likely to be chinese, unless something suggests otherwise.
That's a rather closer analogy.

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Maybe the dream is about the taint. That does not prove that choosing the power option makes you more tainted, because it's still a dream and nothing in it affects the real world. It is certainly an important part of the exposition of the narrative. But it's still a dream. Dreams are outside morality because they do not impact the real world. I don't care whether it's a fantasy world or not, anything that only takes place inside your head should not impact virtue judgements. I don't even care whether the person in question is conscious or not. Imagination should not be policed.
The dreams in BG1 seemed to impact the real world, since they gave you an ability afterwards.

Offline mcruz

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2004, 03:13:31 AM »
The only way I see it is that the PC has heard about the tainted blood..........over and over and over again........plus all the bad stuff about Bhaal and the essense that you're carrying...........so in a "special" dream by inciting the taint (i.e wanting more power) you're doing a bad thing.......

on the other hand the PC hasn't really experienced the taint from within (except for those powers in BG and the dreams) which in my opinion is not much to formulate an opinion about whether the taint is something that should be explored or not...so we can't really blame the PC at this point if he is curious about the essense of Bhaal inside

it's also kinda hard to accept that saying you want more power a la Bhaal especially in a dream (even an unique one) is a bad thing simply cause we don't really know the state of mind of the PC so it falls on the assumption of what the player wants/thinks

unfortunately......there are no real consequences to what you do or say in these dreams (that I can think of that is) in terms of what happens eventually in th game which makes the drop in virtue also hard to accept

nevertheless it's a good idea because I do think that the dreams are sort of tests.......
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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2004, 05:32:54 AM »
Bhaal used to be the Lord of Murder. His portfolio is already taken up by Cyric IIRC. So whatever you are (As said before I would prefer to be the God of sliced bread) gonna end up as is up to you after ascencion IMO.

Bhaal's portfolio was Death, taken by Cyric, but now owned by Kelemvor. :)

If you became a deity I'd assume you'd take Death as your portfolio (similar to Xvim inheriting Hatred and so on from his father Bane). This *is* allowed providing the PC only becomes a lesser deity, which is likely since you'd have almost no worshippers.

That's a little off - topic, but what I'm saying is, you could still become a God of Death. :)
Being a god like Kelemvor wouldn't be all that bad, even a paladin could not reject that. I could be the Shiva of FR. :D

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2004, 04:09:47 PM »
Wasn't Myrkul the God of Death?

Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2004, 05:04:53 PM »
No, Myrkul was the God of the Dead.
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