Author Topic: Thought Police?  (Read 25673 times)

Offline Ruben

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2004, 08:17:32 PM »
Well not if my opinions will be paid attention to but here are my 2 cents worth.

The dreams is BG 1 and BG 2 are different. The dreams in BG one your character is continually dragged along from one sit thought to another, and the dreams are reflected up the choice you made while you were awake. The BG 1 dreams were more like real dreams than the BG2 dreams.

You recieve "power" from these dreams regardless of your choices. Is useing your other Baal abilties sucumbing to the Taint? Like cure light wounds or draw upon holy might? It is the power inside you from your bloodline which is NOT good or evil.


Second of all, the BG2 dreams you do get to make decisions, and you get to influence how the dreams go, so in that case they are quite different that the BG 1 dreams, as they are not results of your decisions but very well could be the result Irenecus who was torturing you for an indefinite amount of time.

Knowing the outcome of the dreams in BG1 a good character could easily assume that wanting power could end gaining more "good" power. Power to heal, protect and defend.

Offline Buck Naked

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2004, 04:33:18 PM »
After all, in some real life religions, being guilty of thinking a sin is as bad as actually committing it.

Yes, and that's one reason so many real-world religions are utterly ridiculous. Finding someone attractive and actually cheating on your spouse are two entirely different things in the real world.

I don't normally make posts on theology to gaming boards, lol, and this doesn't directly have anything to do with this mod, but I find it hard to avoid such comments go without some clarification....

(Jesus said,) "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  Matthew 5:28

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."  1 John 3:15

The point is that from God's perspective, lust is just as damnable a sin as adultery, and hate is just as damnable a sin as murder.  After all, the act does not take place without having first begun as a desire.  (Sometimes opportunity is the only thing that separates just having the desire and actually being able to act upon it.)  But there is clearly a difference in the material world between the physical consequences of hate and lust (desires which, even if they do not lead to murder or adultery, can still have a negative impact on the material world) and the physical consequences of adultery and murder.  Even in the theocracy of Old Testament Israel, the civil law code did not provide penalties for hate or lust, but they did for murder or adultery. 

I seriously doubt any of you who have children teach them that it is okay for them to hate or lust, just so long as they do not act upon it by committing murder or adultery. 

Also, "finding someone attractive" and looking at someone lustfully are clearly not the same thing -- YOU made that equation, and purely for the sake of refuting someone else's argument by altering it
beyond what they actually said....  ;)

But none of this, of course, really applies to the "moral reality" of BG2 or the Virtue mod.  And as so many have repeated, the dreams (visions, perhaps)  in the game are clearly something different from the "normal dreams" which people in the fantasy world of the game normally dream -- which it would seem safe to assume are much like the normal dreams we normally dream in the real world.   :P
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2004, 04:40:03 PM »
While hate is rather obvious, I somewhat doubt I'd actively discourage my children from lust.

Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2004, 05:48:47 PM »
(Jesus said,) "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  Matthew 5:28

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."  1 John 3:15


I would interpret this more along the lines of watch your thoughts. They are the beginning of sin. It is somewhere along the lines of Buddha's teachings that awareness will free you. Making the thought itself a sin would take away the responsibility and that cannot be the reason for Jesus to quote these examples.
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Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2004, 05:16:28 AM »
After all, in some real life religions, being guilty of thinking a sin is as bad as actually committing it.

Yes, and that's one reason so many real-world religions are utterly ridiculous. Finding someone attractive and actually cheating on your spouse are two entirely different things in the real world.

(Jesus said,) "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1 John 3:15

The point is that from God's perspective...

Which of course the Bible claims to know, even though it contradicts itself completely multiple times. According to the Bible, God also says it's OK to offer up your daughters for mass rape, that sleeping with a woman during her period is a heinous sin, and that stoning disobedient children is right and proper.

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I seriously doubt any of you who have children teach them that it is okay for them to hate or lust, just so long as they do not act upon it by committing murder or adultery.

I plan to teach my children that lust is a fine thing to feel, and a fine thing to act on when they are grown up and know what they're getting into. There is nothing wrong with lust whatsoever. In fact, it's great.

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Also, "finding someone attractive" and looking at someone lustfully are clearly not the same thing -- YOU made that equation, and purely for the sake of refuting someone else's argument by altering it
beyond what they actually said.... ;)


Oh please. Yeah, people go around not-looking at people they find attractive all the time, and certainly never looking at them with lust in their hearts. That's ridiculous.

"Watch your thoughts" is the beginning of mind-control, and hence the beginning of religion.
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Offline BobTokyo

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2004, 07:54:20 AM »
On the other hand, since you're damned to hell for all eternity just for thinking of a sin, whether you act on it or not, there's no reason not to act on each and every passing sinful thought. I mean, you're just as damned either way, right?

Now where did I leave my Batman costume . . .

Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2004, 08:19:16 AM »
Hehe, I like your reasoning Bob and it is a real timesafer too.

*Thinks about some misdeeds for the afternoon.*
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Offline Buck Naked

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2004, 11:56:13 AM »
While hate is rather obvious, I somewhat doubt I'd actively discourage my children from lust.

There is a difference between "lust" and healthy sexuality, you know.  Or are you just trolling?
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Offline Buck Naked

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2004, 12:00:15 PM »
I would interpret this more along the lines of watch your thoughts. They are the beginning of sin. It is somewhere along the lines of Buddha's teachings that awareness will free you. Making the thought itself a sin would take away the responsibility and that cannot be the reason for Jesus to quote these examples.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood.  There would be no deed without the desire first, and often the only thing that prevents the deed from becoming desire is not conscience, but opportunity.  Besides which, there is much more Scripture to this teaching than just the two passages I mentioned.  ;)  I didn't mean to go into the whole theology here, just make a quick comment to clear up an apparent misconception.  Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people....
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Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2004, 12:11:43 PM »
While hate is rather obvious, I somewhat doubt I'd actively discourage my children from lust.

There is a difference between "lust" and healthy sexuality, you know.
What are you talking about?
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lust   Audio pronunciation of "lust" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (lst)
n.

   1. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.
   2.
         1. An overwhelming desire or craving: a lust for power.
         2. Intense eagerness or enthusiasm: a lust for life.
   3. Obsolete. Pleasure; relish.

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Or are you just trolling?
Whatever definition of "lust" is in your head--I'd suggest you refrain from accusing people who don't share it of trolling.
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Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people....
You accused Neriana of "altering someone's argument" by not using whatever bizarre definition of "lust" you are, then accused Sim of "trolling" for, again, using a standard definition of "lust."  That gives plenty of reason to view you as a twit without you having "struck a nerve."
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 12:22:27 PM by Kish »
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Offline Buck Naked

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2004, 12:17:55 PM »
The point is that from God's perspective...

Which of course the Bible claims to know, even though it contradicts itself completely multiple times. According to the Bible, God also says it's OK to offer up your daughters for mass rape, that sleeping with a woman during her period is a heinous sin, and that stoning disobedient children is right and proper.

I love it when someone says soemthing like this, because it gives me the opportunity to say, "Name ten such contradictions, quickly, if there are so many; okay, then name two; okay, how about just one?"  ;) 

First of all, please show me the passage where God condones offering your daughters for rape.  It's obvious you're thinking of Lot in Sodom here, which just goes to show how poorly you know the Bible (and perhaps logic and reason as well).  There is an obvious difference between mentioning that someone did something, and saying that what they did was morally okay.  Second, your other two examples are both mischaracterizations of the text, as well as misapplications, because you are taking what in context are clearly ceremonial laws that only applied to the Jews until the coming of the Christ, and treating them as if they are universal moral principles for all people and all time, which they quite clearly are not.  Now, for some people, the Bible HAS to have "multiple contradictions," because they have convinced themselves that to concede any real truth to it is tantamount to admitting they might be wrong themesleves about some things....

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I plan to teach my children that lust is a fine thing to feel, and a fine thing to act on when they are grown up and know what they're getting into. There is nothing wrong with lust whatsoever. In fact, it's great.
Quote

See above post on this point.

Oh please. Yeah, people go around not-looking at people they find attractive all the time, and certainly never looking at them with lust in their hearts. That's ridiculous.
"Watch your thoughts" is the beginning of mind-control, and hence the beginning of religion.

So, you are so weak that you cannot look at an attractive person without desiring to use them sexually...? 

You equate mind-control with religion, which tells a lot about how narrow-minded and bigoted you are.  Using self-discipline and self-control to focus your mind on some things while avoiding others is not automatically the same thing as mind control, and if you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.  Likewise, equating mind-control with religion.  Certainly, not all religion is "bad" and involves "mind-control," just as the abscence of religion does not guarantee the abscence of mind-control, and the presence of religion does not guarantee that something good will come of it.  Your hasty generalizations seem quite overbroad, and also very, very hostile and close-minded to anything resembling a point of view which differs too much from your own.  You seem to believe that anyone who thinks differently from you MUST by definition be either corrupt or stupid, which is perhaps the best indicator that you yourself are either one or the other. 

Reasonable people can disagree -- and still remain agreeable, civil, and reasonable.  Unreasonable people on the other hand....
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Offline Buck Naked

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2004, 12:21:45 PM »
On the other hand, since you're damned to hell for all eternity just for thinking of a sin, whether you act on it or not, there's no reason not to act on each and every passing sinful thought. I mean, you're just as damned either way, right?

Now where did I leave my Batman costume . . .

It's not "thinking of a sin" that is condemned, but the desire to DO it.  Anything that does not meet God's standard of moral perfection ("Be holy as I am holy."), is defined as "sin" or "evil."  Obviously, if you can look at God's judgment of your sins as justification to sin more, you're only proving how right he is to damn you in the first place....  ;)
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Offline Kish

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2004, 12:24:01 PM »

Reasonable people can disagree -- and still remain agreeable, civil, and reasonable.  Unreasonable people on the other hand....
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So, you are so weak that you cannot look at an attractive person without desiring to use them sexually...?

You equate mind-control with religion, which tells a lot about how narrow-minded and bigoted you are.  Using self-discipline and self-control to focus your mind on some things while avoiding others is not automatically the same thing as mind control, and if you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.  Likewise, equating mind-control with religion.  Certainly, not all religion is "bad" and involves "mind-control," just as the abscence of religion does not guarantee the abscence of mind-control, and the presence of religion does not guarantee that something good will come of it.  Your hasty generalizations seem quite overbroad, and also very, very hostile and close-minded to anything resembling a point of view which differs too much from your own.  You seem to believe that anyone who thinks differently from you MUST by definition be either corrupt or stupid, which is perhaps the best indicator that you yourself are either one or the other.
Isn't there something in the Bible about the mote in your neighbor's eye and the beam in yours?
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Offline Buck Naked

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2004, 12:44:35 PM »
Hehe, I like your reasoning Bob and it is a real timesafer too.

*Thinks about some misdeeds for the afternoon.*

As stated above, I only posted because I thought I could clarify a misconception someone seemed to have about Biblical Christian theology.  Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people.  However, I do not think I will have the time to keep up with all the posts that will be further spawned by my most recent rebuttals (just look at how long it took me to come back and see if anyone hade even made a new post to this thread, lol).  Besides, it is rather difficult to adequately address such complex matters online, due both to the various shortcomings of the media, and to the seriousness and depth of the topic.  That, and I am sure some people would rather see this thread used for its intended purpose, rather than a discourse on theology.  ;)

Some of you, though, really do need to think through your rather stereotypical view of religion, Christianity, the Bible, and probably a whole host of other things.  I can understand if someone takes a look at Scripture, then walks away and says that they do not believe what it says; I just don't understand why someone becomes so filled with hostility at the notion that someone else has looked at it and does believe it.

We are living in dangerous times indeed when those who hate and oppose "religion" do so with all the same zeal, furvor, hostility, dogmaticism, illogic, incivility, irrationality, intolerance, fascism and extremism that they so condemn in the stereotypical "fundamentalists" which they so despise.  ;)

If I have unneccesarily offended anyone, I humbly apologize.  I do not plan on returning to this thread again, or else I will be tempted to start posting more off-topic rebuttals.  You are now therefore (at least in your own minds) free to assume that I have done so only because I was "losing" the argument.  But frankly, I have to deal with enough trolls and flamers in REAL LIFE than to waste my time arguing online with people who don't understand the concepts of polite debate and intellectual honesty -- and let's face it, the internet (heck, the world) is dominated by such people, and you won't get far in life letting them concern you too much. 

Anyone sincerely interested in discussing this more can feel free to E or IM me, whether to clarify some point or to try and convince me that I am wrong, etc.  Best of luck to the rest of you, and remember: if you want others to respect your right to your opinion, then you also have to have just as much respect as you desire.  If you want to be treated civilly, then you need to be at least as civil to those with whom you disagree.  Otherwise, you may as well admit that you'd rather line people up against the wall and shoot them rather than try to sincerely convince them to come around to your point of view based upon reasoned argument and their own free choice.... 
"Somewhere in a lonely hotel room there's a guy starting to realize eternal fate has turned its back on him...it's 2AM...."

Offline Imrahil

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #114 on: July 22, 2004, 01:06:05 PM »
As stated above, I only posted because I thought I could clarify a misconception someone seemed to have about Biblical Christian theology. Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people...
<snip>
...I just don't understand why someone becomes so filled with hostility at the notion that someone else has looked at it and does believe it.

What you're missing is that you're the Troll here. One off-hand comment along the lines of "Yes, and that's one reason so many real-world religions are utterly ridiculous" gets us a page of your spam, when Christianity wasn't even specificially mentioned. When you spam a gaming forum with post after post of irrelevant rhetoric, you shouldn't be surprised when you encounter a little hostility.

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Offline neriana

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #115 on: July 22, 2004, 02:42:32 PM »
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:1-5 RSV)

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:1-5 RSV)

I know the Bible. I can quote it at you all day. Interesting that you can't address the quotes. Perhaps you're the one with "misconceptions" about the theology, "Buck Naked". I never said anything mean about anyone in particular, and you turned around and accused me of a whole swath of terrible junk. Criticizing institutions is one thing, telling individuals they're horrible for believing what they do or do not is another.

By the way, there is nothing more annoying than people who write nasty things then follow them up with "nice" smilies.
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Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2004, 03:22:26 PM »
I hope you all die of cancer.   ;)

Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2004, 01:28:02 AM »
I would interpret this more along the lines of watch your thoughts. They are the beginning of sin. It is somewhere along the lines of Buddha's teachings that awareness will free you. Making the thought itself a sin would take away the responsibility and that cannot be the reason for Jesus to quote these examples.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood.  There would be no deed without the desire first, and often the only thing that prevents the deed from becoming desire is not conscience, but opportunity.  Besides which, there is much more Scripture to this teaching than just the two passages I mentioned.  ;)  I didn't mean to go into the whole theology here, just make a quick comment to clear up an apparent misconception.  Apparently, I struck a nerve with some people....
If it is just opportunity and not free choice than God has not given us free will and the concept of sin is meaningless. Only a willfull choice let's your thoughts not become actions. You can always see that you are getting let astray, but you can muster the will to act differently. If it is just chance and opportunity it is a question of statistics when I first whack someone, because nobody can control his own thoughts. The upside is that God knows that.

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We are living in dangerous times indeed when those who hate and oppose "religion" do so with all the same zeal, furvor, hostility, dogmaticism, illogic, incivility, irrationality, intolerance, fascism and extremism that they so condemn in the stereotypical "fundamentalists" which they so despise.

If I have unneccesarily offended anyone, I humbly apologize.  I do not plan on returning to this thread again, or else I will be tempted to start posting more off-topic rebuttals.  You are now therefore (at least in your own minds) free to assume that I have done so only because I was "losing" the argument.  But frankly, I have to deal with enough trolls and flamers in REAL LIFE than to waste my time arguing online with people who don't understand the concepts of polite debate and intellectual honesty -- and let's face it, the internet (heck, the world) is dominated by such people, and you won't get far in life letting them concern you too much.

Christian fundamentalist are indeed the curse of this century. :( Who hates religion? I do not know anyone who opposes religion (taking into account that even atheists have their POVs on religion which is not the same thing as hate something). You are talking about understanding Islam here right?

After reading the 'I apologize, you stupid MFs* and will never return here again' post I wondered about your RL christian approach, but after reading that you encounter trolls and flamers outside the internet I think I can understand your fervour when it comes to other people's religious feelings.

@off-topicness: I do not feel that religion is off topic here. (I don't mind at least)

I hope you all die of cancer.   ;)
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 01:30:36 AM by jester »
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2004, 03:04:50 AM »
Christian fundamentalist are indeed the curse of this century

I would submit, with the whole host of Islamic fundamentalist homicide bombings and 9/11, blah blah blah, that it would be easier to make a case that Islamic fundamentalists are the curse of this century, and that more people died at the hands of Nazism and Communism than any Christian group in the last century.

Not that I would put much effort into making that case, since it's not right to put folks into neat little moulds and tiny little boxes. That's the easy way out.

Offline jester

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2004, 03:46:08 PM »
Sorry, I must have misread that fundamentalist line. It is of course the OTHERS. Die, die, die. This reminds me of a cute story from a siege in medieval France IIRC against an heretic christian sect. (There may be other versions of this story floating around, because at THAT time this thought must have been widespread.) After the walls had been broken the subcommanders asked the big guy what to do with the population and how to tell the heathens apart from the good ones. His reply: Kill everybody inside. God knows his own.

I would settle for fundametalists as a whole. Waddayasay? ;)
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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2004, 06:08:46 AM »
Kill everybody inside. God knows his own.

  it was the [4th?5th?] crusade, and the words came from Pope Innocent III (wow, what a name); the question came from a commander who was on the heels of a group of Cathars (ascetics who crazily managed to get a fair number of nobles on their side) who were claiming sanctuary within a church. i think 'god will recognize his own' was more the literal trans., but of course i've never done the legwork myself.  {and it's since been 'boiled down' by a variety of military outfits to "kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out".}
  one of the most culturally destructive of the crusades (all of which divert my animosities somewhat away from 20th or 21st century fundies, frankly), and it was white-on-white.  the one that sacked constantinople (just a bit earlier) and the first occupation of jerusalem (1095) are the 'ties' for such destruction, but the anti-cathar crusade decimated a far larger territory.

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I would settle for fundametalists as a whole. Waddayasay? ;)

  best.  nationalist fundamentalists, fundamentalists Of The Book, all absolutists who whittle down what little perspective they began with to a wicked transfixing one-dimensional point. (am i redundant much?  oui.)


 ALMOST on the Thought Police topic / definitely Virtue-related / laying low from changing topic titles  ::) or starting whole new bits:
 
 First Question (to determine whether the Second Question is valid): i have not researched what happens >after< a paladin (or ranger, but i don't really give a damn about them for now) Falls.  is it strictly a permanent class change to Fighter?  can they then [apart from certain mod components] put 5 slots in any weapon?  cavaliers then may use ranged weapons, etc.?
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2004, 06:27:07 AM »
No. You keep the penalties of the paladin class, but lose the bonuses.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2004, 06:38:11 AM »

  sweet.  and it's permanent?
 
  so my Little Minor Idea which is probably obscure enough to brush aside indefinitely is - how could Atonement (particularly a la 1st edition but certainly valid in any version) be introduced for those paladins who fell only by not-strictly-evil violations of their Code?  an extra sidequest or two, depending on what deity you can feasibly go to for help...  and then the restoration of class privileges.
  totally unfeasible?
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline SimDing0

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2004, 06:39:44 AM »
Virtue only affects actual good/evil actions, rather than anything to do with the paladin's code. This means that, whether correct or not, they'll only fall for actually performing evil deeds, rather than obscure violations of their code.

Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: Thought Police?
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2004, 06:48:25 AM »

 oh, okay.  the only thing i could really think of off-hand was failed pickpocketing (i saw kish mention somewhere that it's impossible to "detect" successful p'p'ing), and that simply sticks with a flat Rep drop of 1, right? (as far as reps over 10 go...)
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

 

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