Author Topic: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?  (Read 7616 times)

Offline Caedwyr

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No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« on: April 09, 2004, 02:32:08 AM »
I've noticed that there is no virtue loss for killing demogorgon's avatar.  It could be argued that since by killing Demogorgon's avatar, you are releasing that particular avatar and in doing so, increase Demogorgon's overall power.  Since Demogorgon is one of the nastier gods out there, that isn't a good thing by any means.

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Offline Kish

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2004, 02:38:08 AM »
But you don't know it's Demogorgon until you're either about to do battle, or have to choose between doing battle or abandoning the Knights of the Vigil.  (Setting aside the other dodgy aspects of the situation, like the Knights' attempt to set you up.)
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Offline Caedwyr

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2004, 02:51:20 AM »
Hmm, good point.  Since the player is manipulated by both sides, once the choice needs to be made, it isn't an easy call to say which action is virtuous and which isn't.  Triage is never fun it seems. 

Thinking about the dialogue raises a question.  Should the player lose virtue for lying to Odern and knowingly sending him to his death?  You know at this point that he has lied to you about the effect of the ritual scroll, but two wrongs do not make a right.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2004, 05:54:58 AM »
Sending them to their deaths generally seems like a nasty thing, yes.

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2004, 10:30:49 AM »
Demegorgan wouldn't really be a god would he?

Offline Jessayla

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2004, 11:05:18 AM »
Quote
Demegorgan wouldn't really be a god would he?

No, just an extremely powerful demon prince.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2004, 12:01:55 PM »
EDIT: replaced original post with something more accurate ;)

Demogorgon is a god, with power in the abyss and certain Prime Material worlds like Oerth (Greyhawk).

However, as far as I can tell he is not a member of any of the Forgotten Realms pantheons of gods, or indeed any of the other pantheons of the world of Aber-Toril. So while he might have worshippers in the Realms (e.g. Ixixachitl), he shouldn't be able to grant them any spells or send an avatar to the world - at least not without the permission of Ao.

Perhaps Demogorgon used to be part of one the Realms pantheons, but either got expelled or decided to abandon the world of his own accord. His Watcher's Keep avatar, already imprisoned, could not escape along with the deity himself, and so became cut off from the true Demogorgon. There is certainly precedent for something like this in the BG series, i.e. Amauntor's avatar still being in the Realms even though the god himself had died of neglect and consequently been banished to the Astral Plane.

Once you freed this avatar from the Realms, it's doubtful that it would be able to return, and hence there would be no consequences for the inhabitants of the Realms. Demogorgon would, however, have an extra avatar to terrorize various other worlds with.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2004, 01:27:13 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Caedwyr

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2004, 01:08:30 PM »
Demogorgon is worshipped by a group of evil intelligent manta ray like creatures on multiple planes, including I believe Aber-Toril (Monster Mythology).  Also, when you leave the keep after killing Demogorgon, a message appears above your head saying that since Demogorgon's AVATAR is dead, the scroll of helm disappears. 

Last I checked, only deities got avatars.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2004, 02:45:18 PM »
Sending them to their deaths generally seems like a nasty thing, yes.

...and v13 gives a Virtue penalty for doing so.

Offline Echon

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2004, 03:18:21 PM »
As far as I remember, Demogorgon is considered a demi-god. I forget where I read this, though.

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Offline Caedwyr

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2004, 07:26:42 PM »
He used to be, but has advanced to Lesser Power Status by being exclusively worshiped by the Ixithcalsomthingorother, a race of evil manta rays.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2004, 06:06:05 AM »
In 3.5E, I don't think he's a deity again, just a demon prince. Though 3.5E is a bit messed up, some of the more powerful fiends can grant spells and so forth.

Also, in 3E onwards not all deities can manifest avatars (I don't think Shaundakul can, for example).

So, yeah, in BG2 I think he is a deity of some rank.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2004, 09:47:08 PM »
they only mention it as an avatar ONCE in the entire quest of watchers keep.
Demogorgon jas the POWER of a demi-god but HE IS NOT A GOD.
If it was only a part of demogorgon and the rest of him was off else where Helm wouldn't have bothered with sealing a part of him away in watchers keep. All that effort is a bit much.
Also if it was only a part it wouldn't matter if you sent it back to demogorgon.

Its his avatar because its the form he takes. The AVATAR is the form a powerful being such a god can take. Gods can have more then ONE avatar. But in essense powerful beings like demon princes and gods have no real form.


If demogorgon is killed in watchers keep he is returned to the abyss. This is true for all demons.
When a demon dies on the prime material plane it is returned to the abyss. The same is true for Devils and the Nine Hells.

In most D&D settings when a demon/devil and other such extra-planner being are killed on the prime plane they return to the plane they are native to and can not return to the prime material for x amount of time.

If the PC's went to the abyss can killed demogorgon there he'd be dead. Gone wipped clean.
However they'd have three dozen balors and maybe some lesser demon princes to deal with at the same time as demogorgon but hey.
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Offline Grim Squeaker

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2004, 03:24:41 AM »
If the PC's went to the abyss can killed demogorgon there he'd be dead. Gone wipped clean.
However they'd have three dozen balors and maybe some lesser demon princes to deal with at the same time as demogorgon but hey.

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2004, 09:21:10 AM »
Now I am not an expert on the AD&D system of powers and only know so much of Aber-Toril. However, I am an expert on Tolkien, from who all FRPGs draw much inspiration, perhaps the entire fantasy genre, that can be debated.
Think of the powerful spirits in Tolkien's universe (I shall refrain from using the specific names of various places;-) ), including Elves, BTW. Their form is a manifestation of their will so to speak, and/or Eru's will. All of them reform when killed, think of Sauron's death at the downfall of Nmenr and his subsequent reforming, this was admittedly aided by the One, but according to the mythology behind it (I think it is ine one of the History of Middle Earth books), powerful spirits could reform when killed. Just as Melkor will at some stage be able to return from the Void he was banished to...
Further, consider that all Tolkien's evil "Deities" (Powerful spirits) such as Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron, Gothmog and the other Balrogs are actually the same kin as the "Good" spirits, but chose wrong and followed an evil path (seduced by Melkor and in his case by ambition), and thus became evil. They are still of the same kin as those faithful to Eru (and one can claim that they too are faithful to Eru's balance as everything, even their evil is borne of his thought). Now, the Valar are not strictly speaking deities, but would be understood as such by the men of Middle Earth and any other medieval world, and we can thus label them such. This would give a translatable system of understanding (and stop me rambling), if we percieve it such.

Middle Earth                                Catholic Earth                              Aber-Thoril
Eru "The One"                             God                                           ??? (you tell me)
---------------------                            -------------------                              --------------------
The Valar, Manw,                       Archangles I suppose                    Gods
Elbereth, etc                              Including the fallen                        Including evil ones such
MELKOR/MORGOTH                      SATAN                                        as Bane, Cyric, Myrkul and                                                                                                        Bhaal
------------------------                         -------------------------                         -----------------------------
Maiar; Olorin/Gandalf                      Angels and DEVILS                       Demigods god and evil
Saruman, Eonw, etc.                   I suppose                                    DEVIL and DEMON princes
Including SAURON and the
BALROGS
--------------------------                        -----------------------                           ------------------------------
Lesser Spirits such as
Oromes Horse Nahar,
Caradhas, WIGHTS

Edar Macilrille

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2004, 09:24:20 AM »
Ups, for some reason it got posted before I finished it, but I was rambling anyway and I reckon you get the idea.

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Offline Reverendratbastard

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2004, 03:25:04 PM »
 
  except that demogorgon has an entire race devoted to his worship, unlike, say, your average angel, devil, or maiar.  even most demon princes and dukes of hell don't have that going for them (worshipers yes, a unique race of them no).
 
  "Abeir-Toril  ??? you tell me"  would be Ao, who administrates those gods.
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Offline Murdane

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2004, 06:03:54 PM »
Now I am not an expert on the AD&D system of powers and only know so much of Aber-Toril. However, I am an expert on Tolkien, from who all FRPGs draw much inspiration, perhaps the entire fantasy genre, that can be debated.


But with all due respect, the Forgotten Realms has a different cosmology, so comparing the cosmology of Middle-Earth with Abeir-Toril can lead to errors.  Also, Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms) drew on many, many other sources for his world besides Tolkien--from what I've read Tolkien may not have even been his primary inspiration.

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2004, 08:22:15 AM »
Thank you sir. However, when comparing yields an analogy there is reason to actually elaborate somewhat from what we know of one to what we know of the other. At least that is my Opinion and I do believe that we can see an analogy in my suggestion above. I dunno, just some food for thought and inspiration. Each person's perception of each world, even our own, is unique to that person and suits his style of playing.
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Offline Murdane

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Re: No virtue loss for killing Demogorgon's Avatar?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2004, 03:14:46 PM »

 

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