Romancing Bioware-style reply

[neriana]

Considering what happens that night, exactly what do you think Aerie is saying? It's an extremely common romance novel-type turn of phrase.

uhm.. just what she's saying?  Literally.  She wants the PC to show her what Love is.. what it consists of.

"What happens that night" is up to the PC.  So, in this case, consideration could take either form.

Wait - do you think Aerie is dumb enough that she doesn't know what's happening if the PC sleeps with her? Or that she's enough of a wimp not to stop something if she doesn't want it to happen? She is neither of those things. Also, while Viconia might say something like "let's get down and dirty tonight", Aerie would not. When she says she wants to know what love is, she means she wants to have sex with the PC. Besides: "I will show you my body tonight, <CHARNAME>, and I hope it pleases you." Do you think she's planning to stand around naked all night?

AERIE WANTS SEX. She gets a bit confused about it later, is all.

[Kish]

I think the romance walkthrough could make the fact that it can continue in ToB if you slept with her more evident.

Uh.. I think it's rather evident enough - after saying that it doesn't break the relationship, what more can be said? 

After saying that, nothing.  However, what you say is:

Hints: ... Aerie will ask you to 'sleep' with her in which case you must (should?) say NO!  .. otherwise she will break the relationship off saying that it has advanced too quickly.  (Modifications made by the flirt pak will allow you to sleep with her and not break the romance.)

Not (without the flirtpacks) that it doesn't break the relationship, but that it does.

[Cybersquirt]

After saying that, nothing.  However, what you say is:

Hints: ... Aerie will ask you to 'sleep' with her in which case you must (should?) say NO!  .. otherwise she will break the relationship off saying that it has advanced too quickly.  (Modifications made by the flirt pak will allow you to sleep with her and not break the romance.)

Not (without the flirtpacks) that it doesn't break the relationship, but that it does.

Okay.  I ..don't think I care.  Heh.  Because, in an unmodded game, it will break the relationship.

AERIE WANTS SEX. She gets a bit confused about it later, is all.

imo, Aerie wants to make the PC happy.. and she thinks sex is the way to do that.  Sex does not equal love.

[Kish]

Okay.  I ..don't think I care.  Heh.  Because, in an unmodded game, it will break the relationship.

The relationship would not end permanently, I never said it would or should.

Make up your mind.

[nurgles_herald]

My five cents on the topic is that <CHARNAME> is obviously portrayed as being the wiser, more knowledgable person in this relationship.  If there is a relationship in which the two (or more) people involved are not at equal maturity levels, it is certainly the more mature person's responsibility to point out such things.

Indeed she is naive, and to take advantage of that by sleeping with her..

Oh yes, it's just awful to sleep with someone with whom you're in a committed relationship and who says "sleep with me please".

Needing time is not ending the relationship permanently. It's putting it on hold until you know what you really want. Sleeping with Aerie is not wrong; her reaction is not wrong either, and it makes sense that after she comes to terms with her life a little more she'd want to continue the relationship.

You, as <CHARNAME>, should know that Aerie really doesn't know what she's getting herself into.  Therefore, if you were to sleep with her, you would be undeniably taking advantage of her, b/c you actually understand the situation.  I do have to agree with you, though (neriana), that time to think is merely putting a relationship on hold.  However, it really is "awful to sleep with someone whom you're in a committed relationship and who says "sleep with me please"" if he/she doesn't understand theirself or the deeper meaning of the situation they're in.  That transcends all boundaries, whatsoever.  Also, Aerie is probably just trying to use sex as a drug in this case, a way to ease her pains.  Easing pains is a lot different from sharing an intimate relationship: you shouldn't have sex just b/c you're depressed, simply because that may have a negative outcome.

[neriana]

Oh boy, where to start...

Aerie wants to have sex with the PC because they are in love. They are both adults. "No, honey, I don't think you're mature enough or know what you really want" - yeah, that's enlightened, respectful and loving. "You're a bad person because you can't read your lover's future mind" also makes a lot of sense.

There is also absolutely no reason to assume CHARNAME is more mature than Aerie in the first place. He's very young himself.

And you know what? Having sex can really cheer someone up. Don't say "you shouldn't have sex just because...", because it's none of your business why consenting adults choose to have sex.

Aerie thinks about it afterward and decides she's not quite ready for the emotions she's feeling at the moment. The PC couldn't predict this, and *gasp* he also wanted to have sex with the woman he loves and is attracted to, and this makes him a creep? Please.

[Ruben]

Having played through the Arie romance several time Arie seems to me to be incredibily naieve. She has not been in a serious relationship with a man before or atleast since her trama with the circuis which has left her physically and emotionally scared.

From the way the lines are written, to me it seems that shes is rush things. She unsure of the request and from my moral point of view I would want to know if this is what she really wanted. It may or may not be your PCs "first time" but it is Aeries and that can mean alot to some people. Aerie is so excited about experiencing new things that she wants to try everything as if time was running out and it would all end on her.

[Kish]

This line of argument is ultimately immaterial to whether it's a bug for Aerie to not break up with the PC--but at this point I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the romance walkthrough will always state inaccurately that Aerie breaks up with you if you sleep with her.

Aerie's lines are:

I...do not have much experience with love, <CHARNAME>.  With your urging, I have become eager to experience many things...and now I wish to experience this.
I...I will show you my body, <CHARNAME>...and I hope it pleases you.  Would you...would you stay with me this night, <CHARNAME>?  Will you show me what true love consists of?

So if she's not asking for sex, what is she asking for?  A little snuggling and naked poetry?  For reply options, the PC has two lines that are nasty, and, "How could I refuse such a sweet offer?" and, "This isn't all love is, Aerie.  Wouldn't you rather wait until the time is right?"  What offer, if it's not sex?  Wait for what until the time is right--if it's not sex?  There is no ambiguity about Aerie asking for sex.

By her indication that she has not "experienced this" before, and her saying that "The thought of laying with a man frightens me a little, I must admit..." if you turn her down, I'd also say it's pretty clear that Aerie is a virgin.  However, Neriana is right that the PC could easily be just as naive and inexperienced.  There is nothing in the Aerie romance that wouldn't work perfectly well for someone a great deal like Aerie.

I don't believe Aerie is "panicking," as in the dialogues leading up to the sex LoveTalk the PC has been very supportive and (without the flirt pack) has never had the option to bring up the subject of sex with Aerie.  She has no reason to panic, no reason to believe that sex is necessary to keep the PC.  If you ask her to wait for sex, she says that she desperately wants to feel you near her.  I believe she desires intimacy and thinks she's ready for sex, and if you have sex with her she discovers afterward that she's moved faster than she feels comfortable with.  There is nothing wrong with her feeling that way.  It doesn't reflect badly on her or on the PC.

well MY thought is IT IS VERY cold to break up with someone just after having sex with them.
I mean what do women say about guys who do that.

Often, they say that the man was faking emotions he didn't really feel just in order to get sex.  I would hope everyone in this thread realizes that whatever is going on with Aerie, that isn't it.

[Lord Kain]

of course that isn't Aerie.

What I was trying to say is her coming back is part of her character. What would that say about sweet Aerie if she leaves the PC forever after 'making love'.

I think the idea that the romance should end forever if you have sex with her is stupid. How can you assume its taking advantage of her? FORGET what options are there. If you were roleplaying this with a Dungeon Master you wouldn't get a list of options for a responce.

You try to assume that just because the best option is there it means the caring PC would say it and nothing else. Few people would think of the "This isn't love Aerie wouldn't rather wait until your ready"
Most would simply ask "are you sure you want this" thus throwing the ball back to her court.

Now before sleeping or "sleeping" with Aerie she's nervous and a little frightend. Do you people actually expect her NOT to be nervous and a little afraid.
If she came up to my PC sure of herself I would turn her down because I'd think she was under a spell or something. Now answer this question whats wrong with being nervous about your first time? I don't expect and answer to this next question just think about it.

To those of you out there who are no longer virgins how many of you weren't nervious your first time. Rememeber Aerie grew up in a D&D seting not in a land with access to the internet.

[Cybersquirt]

Neriana, I'm done.  It seems we're crossing wires (miscommunicating over and over) and ..I'm just too tired and don't care enough about the subject to endlessly debate it. 

Kish, having a relationship end in week 12 doesn't mean it won't resume in week 50.  I never changed my mind - you just misread what I typed (or whatever). 

(backs away slowly wondering why this became such a big deal  )

Have a nice debate folks. 

[Cybersquirt]

This line of argument is ultimately immaterial to whether it's a bug for Aerie to not break up with the PC--but at this point I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the romance walkthrough will always state inaccurately that Aerie breaks up with you if you sleep with her.

In an unmodded game, Kish, Aerie will break up with you unless you follow one specific dialog chain - which I believe to be a bug (hmm, that's how this all started wasn't it  )

[nurgles_herald]

@ neirana- People only derive happiness from sex because of the intimacy it provides.  However, sex can be a very emotional thing even if one thinks one wants it, so when one is depressed sex is hardly the best option.  It can severely over-stress an already breaking-down mind, though it may also make a person feel much better.  But why not avoid the negative possibilities and bypass the extreme physical stress of making love and cut straight to the part of love of a less physical, yet equally emotional kind.

That's not to say there's no one out there who would enjoy sex more than purely emotional intimacy.  In fact, probably everyone would for at least one time in their life preffer sex.  However, there are times when it would be inappropriate (for instance, after the death of half of one's families and/or loved ones, not many would be in the mood for sex) or, at least, not the best solution.

You are definitely more mature than Aerie in that romance.  Maturity has a bit to do with age, but most of it has to do with personality.  You are certainly the one with the real power and thought in that relationship, and thus you should be the final judger of any offers that Aerie gives out.  Its really not to hard to determine whether the person you love does or does not have any clue what they're talking about, particularly if you've had a long and meaningful relationship.  Personally, I think that Aerie wanted to have sex with <Charname, which should replace you in this entire paragraph> simply because you were kind to her and she wants to repay you.  That kind of mentality leads to date rapes in which the woman consented and so the man doesn't get in any trouble.  Though not technically a rape, the emotional and mental damage can be exactly the same simply because the woman had sex out of gratitude or payment: not out of love.

That is, of course, just my thoughts on the relationship.  I might be interpreting BioWare's work incorrectly, I might not.  Maybe they made the relationship ambigious on purpose just to make us argue  .  Maybe not.  But, then again, I probably shouldn't be talking at all in this forum because I'm a !n00b!.  Just check my profile if you don't know what I mean by that...

Additionally, the way you defend Aerie makes me think that we are attacking women everywhere.  Hardly.  We are simply pointing out that in this relationship, Aerie is the immature one.  In a relationship with, say, just about anyone else, the tables could be turned easily.  We aren't saying that all women everywhere are like Aerie, but simply that Aerie is like Aerie.

[neriana]

@ neirana- People only derive happiness from sex because of the intimacy it provides. 

Not true at all. You might as well say "people only derive pleasure from food because of the nourishment it provides". People derive pleasure from sex for a lot of reasons, and one really big one is that it feels good.

Sex is a thoroughly "appropriate" and common response to stress of any kind. There were a whole bunch of articles on this exact subject after 9/11. It's an excellent stress reliever.

The only reason "you're" the one with the power in the relationship with Aerie is that "you're" the PC. You might as well say the PC's more mature than Jaheira because he makes all the vital decisions.

Aerie says she loves you and she's attracted to you. It's #$%! ridiculous to say she only wants to have sex to "be kind". Yes, it is sexist to say otherwise because that intrepretation doesn't come from the text but from some idea that good girls wouldn't really want to do that. "I love you and I want to have sex with you" is what she says and it's what she means. If that's date rape, then what the hell is consensual? And no, the "emotional damage" from consensual sex is not the same as that from rape. That is an insult to every woman who has really been raped, on a date or otherwise.

[Lord Kain]

Well put neriana well put.

[Alarielle]

That kind of mentality leads to date rapes in which the woman consented and so the man doesn't get in any trouble.  Though not technically a rape, the emotional and mental damage can be exactly the same simply because the woman had sex out of gratitude or payment: not out of love.

I wasn't going to reply to this, but your assertion is so unbelievably ridiculous that I had to say something.  There is a world of difference between rape and consensual sex, and though some people may be emotionally affected by consensual sex, it is nothing compared to the hurt and suffering endured by rape victims.  I'm not going into the details, but I have been there, and I have to agree with Neriana when I say that that is extraordinarily insulting.

[discharger12]

That kind of mentality leads to date rapes in which the woman consented and so the man doesn't get in any trouble.  Though not technically a rape, the emotional and mental damage can be exactly the same simply because the woman had sex out of gratitude or payment: not out of love.

I wasn't going to reply to this, but your assertion is so unbelievably ridiculous that I had to say something.  There is a world of difference between rape and consensual sex, and though some people may be emotionally affected by consensual sex, it is nothing compared to the hurt and suffering endured by rape victims.  I'm not going into the details, but I have been there, and I have to agree with Neriana when I say that that is extraordinarily insulting.

Er.. well, I haven't "been there" as said.. but I do know that as someone said "I do not make love to everyone I love," s/he is right. Because, I love my mom and dad. Do I have sex with them? No.

[nurgles_herald]

Note that I said can be, not is always.  It is rarely, if ever, anywhere near the level of rape in emotional or psychological damage, it merely depends on who the other lover is.  If one's significant other is a rather abusive person inside, it could be tremendously scarring and likened to rape.  If the person is the exact opposite and a very nice, empathic person, it could be the exact opposite.  But the attitude that consensual sex could never be like rape in any way is another problem in our society, because rape itself is a touchy subject.

Rapes are rarely reported.  This is so for many reasons, not just because our social rhetoric attacks the fundemental ideas of the rights and privelidges of the rape victim (not to say that you are, but our society does).  America makes it such a subject that victims are too embarassed to say anything, sometimes holding it as a secret forever.  This, of course, you probably already knew, because everyone knows that.  But its part of my speech.

Sometimes, consensual sex can be 'forced'.  **Note: This is not said to degrade women in any way, shape or form.  Very few women actually act this way, but some do.**  If a woman doesn't really want sex, but their partner brings it up and is dead set on sex, a consensual rape might occur in which the person who really doesn't want sex will consent simply because it makes the situation less confrontational.  Though not as damaging to such a victim in the long run, it can still be quite devestating.

If you want more details, just go down to your local police station.  They should have a lot of files on such stockpiled there.  Btw, though my argument sounds a bit half-baked, it is actually based on fact (splashed in with a bit of opinion).  Officer Hyde came in and gave a three period lecture to our health class about rape, the effects of rape and the kinds of rape.  Have you heard a two and a half hour lecture about rape this week, given by a trained police officer?

This is getting a bit off subject though, and is soon going to digress into an argument over what is or is not rape, rather than the sorry state of romancing in Biware.  I'll shut up now  .

Edit: I'd also have to say that the PC is the more mature character in the romances simply because Bioware is a bit sexist.  Well, okay, really sexist.  Blatantly sexist.  It doesn't help that the PC is the main character, though.

[Alarielle]

Officer Hyde came in and gave a three period lecture to our health class about rape, the effects of rape and the kinds of rape.  Have you heard a two and a half hour lecture about rape this week, given by a trained police officer?

Have you or said police officer ever been raped?  I don't need someone to tell me what rape does to a person.

Anyway, sex between the PC and Aerie is entirely consensual.  Aerie may feel bad about it afterwards, but that is nothing to do with the act itself.  It's more to do with her level of emotional immaturity at the time.  Aerie doesn't do it to 'repay' the PC, she does it because she wants to at the time.  Women change their minds, it's what makes them great    Although Aerie is too immature to realise she isn't ready, it's not up to the PC to point it out.  You may be the child of a god, but you're not a mind reader

[Ruben]

Yeah she may want it at that time. But unlike eating food or some other "sensual desire" sex can have serious long term results.

The problem here is just do to lack of choices do to limitation by the Bioware engine and the author of the Romance.  This problem is in somewhat address by the flirt pack, but following along the basic romance dialogs the question comes out of the blue. Their was no real intaminte moments before hand. She jumps from talking about possibly settling down to wanting to jump in bed with you. Yes she wants itimacy to start, but just from the layout of the romance, she is jumping the gun. I'm not going to sleep with a girl I haven't spent the time to get to know intimatly.

Cause as it stands now, your not expect to read HER mind,  your expect to read the mind of the Author of Arie Romance.

[Cybersquirt]

In a blatent attempt to steer wide of any possible rape debate, let's try and get back to (what was) the original topic:

Aerie: My love...?  I... I know that you are tired from the day's travels and that you wish to rest, but I... I wish to ask you something, before you retire to your blankets...
Aerie: Here... come with me away from the eyes of the others.  We will not be very far from them.  I simply wish privacy.
Aerie: Now that we are alone... let me speak for a moment.  You have led me to a tremendous discovery, <CHARNAME>... I have found that I do not need wings to fly.
Aerie: I... do not have much experience with love, <CHARNAME>.  With your urging, I have become eager to experience many things... and now I wish to experience this.
Aerie: I... I will show you my body, <CHARNAME>... and I hope it pleases you.  Would you... would you stay with me this night, <CHARNAME>?  Will you show me what true love consists of?
PC1: How could I refuse such a sweet offer? (sleptaerie=1)
Aerie: C-come close to me, then, <CHARNAME>.  Let me feel your hands on my skin... let us lay together so I may experience your love and become a woman at last... (restParty)

PC2: This isn't all love is, Aerie.  Wouldn't you rather wait until the time is right?
Aerie: I... don't know what love is, <CHARNAME>.  But... maybe it would be better to wait until all of this is over.  The thought of laying with a man frightens me a little, I must admit...
Aerie: Stay with me for the night, then, <CHARNAME>, and hold me to you.  I... don't want to be alone, and I so desperately need to be near you...
PC: As you wish... that I am more than willing to do. (sleptaerie=0) (restParty)

PC3: (cruel, and I'm not bothering with it :p)

PC4: Get lost, Aerie... I'm really not interested in being your tutor.
Aerie: So you send me away with... with your cruel words.  I... I thought I loved you... and yet you cut me open without hesitation.  I... should have known better, I suppose. (aerieRomance=3)

If sleptAerie=0
Aerie: So... you are awake at last?  I have been... watching you sleep for some time, now.  It calms me, watching you... and it gave me time to think.
Aerie: I've been... thinking about last night.  You were right, of course... it isn't the right time to experience love when we are always in danger of perishing.
Aerie: I was so eager to experience everything new that I... did not think.  Thank you for respecting me.  I... I love you... and I want our first time together to be something special.
(blah, blah)

If sleptAerie=1
Aerie: So... you are awake at last?  I have been... watching you sleep for some time, now.  It calms me, watching you... and it gave me time to think.
Aerie: You... have made a woman out of me, <CHARNAME>.  I love you more deeply than I can say and can only thank you for what you have done for me.
Aerie: But... at the same time... I cannot help but think that things need to be slowed.  I am so full of emotion... I want to experience too much and am doing it all too quickly.
Aerie: I feel overbalanced, <CHARNAME>.  Quayle would never approve of this, I think.
Aerie: My heart clenches at the thought, but we must stop ourselves from going down this path.  I need to... to find out more about myself... before I can attach myself to another.  I... hope you understand.
(blah, blah - and I don't have an unmodded dlg to know what originally triggered what local variables)

So it is my thought that the relationship should end if the PC sleeps with Aerie.  I believe that is the original (designers)  intent, based on the wording they give her.. or is she suddenly not adult enough to make up her mind about that as well? 

There is the fact that she is naive; she, herself, tells us she wants to experience love and wants us to show her what true love consists of.  The PC can be equally niave and say "how could I refuse such a sweet offer".  No harm, really, but Aerie decides it wasn't the right thing to do - no harm there either.  A more mature PC can say "this isn't all that love consists of..".  I really do think there's enough of a choice and, given what we already know about Aerie, we've got enough to make an informed decision.  (too clinical/basic a summation for this subject, imo, but there it is).  In my opinion, as Kish summararized earlier, Aerie confuses physical intimacy with emotional intimacy - yet another sign of her emotional immaturity.

I have no wish to moralize sleeping with someone - I still stand by what I said earlier, but would like to point out that I never said it made the PC a monster if they chose to sleep with her (that was an assumption that crept in there). 

[neriana]

Yeah she may want it at that time. But unlike eating food or some other "sensual desire" sex can have serious long term results.

Eating can have plenty of serious long term results. There's an epidemic of obesity in the United States. Sex can also not have serious long term results, depending on how you approach it. One serious long term result:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_981281.html?menu=news.quirkies

Consensual sex cannot be forced, nurgle. That's the whole point and the whole definition. Consensual sex is CONSENSUAL and therefore NOT FORCED. I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who did something she absolutely did not want to do to avoid an argument. That's her own damn problem, and it is NOTHING like rape. You also appear to think that this is common. Men are not evil ravening hormonal beasts, and women are not pure angelic unembodied spirits. There's a reason we all have so many nerve endings in a certain place, and it's not purely to further emotional intimacy  .

Anomen is hands down the least mature romanceable character. Bioware may be sexist, but your example absolutely does not prove that, nurgle. Jaheira is plenty mature, and so is Viconia (in her evil way) - and so is Aerie. She takes the initiative on doing something, then decides she doesn't want to do it again because she's not really ready for it. That is mature.

You obviously edited out that bit that Alarielle quoted, which was smart. "A police officer talked at me for two hours about something" sure as hell doesn't make you an expert on it.

[jester]

...erm.. eating you say. Try 'Super Size Me' http://festival.sundance.org/filmguide/popup.aspx?film=F5331

I second the thought that changing your mind in a very special fashion can be perceived as typically female .

[neriana]

I second the thought that changing your mind in a very special fashion can be perceived as typically female .

Sure, if you buy into sexist sterotypes.

[Cybersquirt]

I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who did something she absolutely did not want to do to avoid an argument. That's her own damn problem, and it is NOTHING like rape.

That's not ..quite true.  I take it you know of no incest/abuse "survivors"?  On the surface that logic works but.. is incredibly short-sighted, not to mention being more than a little unsympathetic.  While not rape legally, the feelings can be the same.  "Her own damn problem"?  Sure, with an insignificant twit of a partner.  Nothing like rape?  Quite a bit like rape.

I understand what you're saying (or trying to say) Nurgles, but let me point out that this is not what occurs with Aerie - so what is the point here?

[neriana]

I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who did something she absolutely did not want to do to avoid an argument. That's her own damn problem, and it is NOTHING like rape.

That's not ..quite true.  I take it you know of no incest/abuse "survivors"?  On the surface that logic works but.. is incredibly short-sighted, not to mention being more than a little unsympathetic.  While not rape legally, the feelings can be the same.  "Her own damn problem"?  Sure, with an insignificant twit of a partner.  Nothing like rape?  Quite a bit like rape.

Incest is usually not consensual. The vast majority of the time, an adult male relative forces himself on a child, either physically or using his position of power to take advantage of (usually) her. If an adult brother and sister freely decide to have sex with each other, that's disgusting, but it's still not like rape. I do know incest/abuse victims, and they also would be very insulted by having their experiences compared to "he just wouldn't shut up about it so I had sex with him, poor me."

And you're completely right, I lack sympathy for women who have sex with their boyfriends to avoid an argument and then expect sympathy. They should behave like adults and dump the creep if he keeps bothering them to do something they don't want to do. It would be the same if the situation were reversed. I expect adults to behave like adults, not spineless self-pitying doormats.