Author Topic: Romance-in-gaming article  (Read 35648 times)

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2004, 05:11:29 AM »
On Anomen -  ::)

On BioWare writing romance interests for females -  ::)

Why do they make them so damned needy?  Are we doomed to remain caretaking nurturers?  Even Juhani has issues!!  >:(
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #151 on: June 30, 2004, 03:09:23 PM »
To be fair to Bioware, the romanceables available for male characters aren't exactly well-balanced and independent, either in BG2 or in KotOR. Bioware seems to think therapy is romantic. I didn't really see any huge neediness in Juhani either (after she joins your party). Everyone has issues, after all, but everyone doesn't try to force their romantic partner to solve those issues.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline jcompton

  • Niche Exploiter
  • Administrator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 7246
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2004, 03:37:32 PM »
Issues (with a capital I) are a good cheap way to advance action and give the player a chance to say and do something meaningful and obvious in a way that can still feel good.

We KNOW Aerie's upset about her wings, so, we comfort her.
We KNOW Viconia inwardly resents being a sex object, so, we show her she's not.
We KNOW Anomen needs us to make the right decision for him, so, we do.

This is a hell of a lot easier to script than a romantic dialogue that begins with the NPC saying

"What are you thinking?"
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2004, 03:46:03 PM »
Issues (with a capital I) are a good cheap way to advance action and give the player a chance to say and do something meaningful and obvious in a way that can still feel good.


True, JC, but --- well, have you played KotOR? Bioware goes overboard. I think the player should be able to have conversations with the NPC about issues without being forced to play therapist, and I think NPC issues should fall less into the "what the hell is wrong with you??" category. I think it's handled pretty well in Kelsey.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Domi

  • Guest
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2004, 04:09:09 PM »
This is a hell of a lot easier to script than a romantic dialogue that begins with the NPC saying

"What are you thinking?"


Here at least in BG we are balancing on the edge of getting into the one thing we know about PC for sure "So, how does it feel to be Bhaalspwan, <CHARNAME>?" In short it is difficult to forecast what kind of Protagonist player would like to play and what issues interest him/her. So it is easier to develop lovetalks based on the known entity - NPC. Who either have to fluff, or have "soul-to-soul" talks. Soul-to-soul often sounds like a therapy, I am afraid, because it prompts the NPC to trust you his/her deepest hurts... and "Well, I cut my finger when I was twelve, and I have a scar there still, and it worries me" probably not gonna make it. So we get the majour tragedy. Every NPC pretty much has one...

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2004, 06:05:24 PM »
What??? Vic is not a sex object???
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Dark Raven

  • Bloody Cynical
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1194
  • Gender: Female
  • Flesh is the law
    • Chosen of Mystra
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2004, 06:13:24 PM »
Little things like the npc complaining syaing this, saying that, comfort me for X issue all make the npc more interesting and realisitic. In a relationship do you not know just about every detail, even small ones, of your mate's life?
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
Per me si va nell eterno dolore.
Per me si va tra la perduta gente...
Lasciate ogni speranza perduta che'entrate!

Chosen of Mystra home to many mods.

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2004, 10:27:58 PM »
Married With Children
Al + Peg Bundy.
Peg Bundy: What are you thinking dear?
Al Bundy: If I wanted you to know, I'd be talking instead of thinking.

Offline cliffette

  • Timmins Tragic
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
  • Gender: Female
  • I still like Neighbours
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2004, 11:08:08 PM »
I think NPC issues should fall less into the "what the hell is wrong with you??" category. I think it's handled pretty well in Kelsey.

I think the questiion should be 'What the hell do the writers have against you, to give you such a traumatic childhood?'

As for the neediness of the NPCs, that gives the PC some scope for roleplay in the romance as well as a vague sense that they are actually making a difference to the NPC's life. Besides, someone coming to you for advice often indicates trust as well as need.

Offline julwise

  • Relax, man.
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 114
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2004, 11:42:44 PM »
Maybe it's just more engaging to play out the romance that way. I could see how the regular development of a relationship wherein both parties lack a non-traumatic issue could be boring. Asking an NPC questions like "So, what'd you do today?" is probably not condusive to an entertaining plot. After all, how many reputable love stories don't involve some sort of tragedy/obstacle? I suppose that it would be refreshing at first to read a romance with someone self-sufficient but it would probably get old quick. It works in real life but not so much in literature. However, I think the sheer monotony of all the BG2 romances involving emotional issues does make it tiring.

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #160 on: July 01, 2004, 02:00:18 AM »
Maybe not the right place, but since Noname Nerdly is mentioned...
Anomen = Annie
Haer'Dalis = Hairy Dallas
Cernd = Senor Tree Hugger
(Not mine, all from Usenet discussions)...

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #161 on: July 01, 2004, 09:03:13 AM »
You know.. I'm all for plot device when it's incorporated into the flow of things and doesn't go on-and-on-and-on-and-on, but when one NPC is (seems) so radically different based on who they're supposed to be romancing it just pisses me off.  And never have I been more peeved after finally finishing the Bastila romance, after the Carth "romance" which was after the Juhani.. uh.. flirt-thing-whatever-the-hell-attempt-at-something-that-one-line-was-supposed-to-be.  (Lesbian romance my ASS; I knew it  ::))

For those who don't know, Carth and Juhani cater to women, Bastila to the men.  Carth and Juhani do nothing but f*cking WHINE for the first 3/4's of the game.  Reminded me so much of Anomen it made me ill.. (Anomen - the romance I broke when I told him the TRUTH  :D)

..or, maybe I'm just going thru another one of those phases.  8)  But, to me, it's intended to play into the women are mothers/caretakers and I'm tired of it.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Sovran

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 33
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #162 on: July 01, 2004, 03:18:13 PM »
You know.. I'm all for plot device when it's incorporated into the flow of things and doesn't go on-and-on-and-on-and-on, but when one NPC is (seems) so radically different based on who they're supposed to be romancing it just pisses me off.

Funny you should mention that... My main problem with the Anomen romance is that the party NPC Anomen and the romance NPC Anomen seem like two distinctly different characters. Despite its flaws, even if the flaw dosage has been liberal, I happen to like his romance; I can even live with the romancing-the-therapist routine, annoying though it is. At least he shows more personality traits than just one (positive traits, that is) as well as development as a character.

That’s just during the love talks, however. End romance theme music. Cue banter, or interjections, and I remember why only fifteen minutes ago I last wanted to strangle the damn bigoted bunch of pixels, especially in SoA. His attitude is almost surreal – I suppose it might work as comic relief, in a "what the hell is wrong with you" kind of way, but it’s not even amusing. More than that, the change in his attitude is surreal.

This Jekyll/Hyde thing bothered me the first time around, and it’s only become more pronounced, the more I’ve played the game. It’s almost as if the romance was added on top of the character as an afterthought. Sure, I can appreciate that plans change, that the romance feature might have been developed after writing Anomen (etc, whatever.) However, the single female-PC romance feeling poorly integrated ticks me off even more than the fact that it was the only one, or the particulars of the romance. That's just me, of course.

- - -

On a different note, and on to a pet peeve of mine: if the player wants to develop the protagonist’s relationship with an NPC, why does it always imply romance? Romance is fine and good, so is NPCs interacting with other NPCs, but if I were to make a wish list, more PC-NPC non-romance dialogues would definitely be on it. In the vanilla BGII game, at least, the majority of them are centered on the Bhaalspawn heritage (the easy way out, as has been pointed out above). There aren’t all that many, either – at least, not as many as to allow for any development of relationship. I remember being cheered, in my first SoA game, when Jaheira could finally say something to my female PC besides complaining about the reputation, but… well, greedy child. :P

[Obviously, I use BGII as an example here, but I haven't seen much relationship developing in any other game, either. So the point is, "more cuddling, and more friendly chit-chat, too, please?"]

Then again, “development of relationship” would imply several different ways for the relationship to develop, I suppose. And, seeing how often the romances have only one possible path that doesn’t result in that fatal end-it-all SetGlobal… well. *shrug* I’ll take what I can get, and then ask for seconds. Greedy child.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 03:34:56 PM by Sovran »

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #163 on: July 01, 2004, 03:21:43 PM »
I didn't notice Juhani whining. She kept telling me how great I was, and yes she talked about how her life used to be difficult (it did, very much) and there was sometimes that "I can't talk to you anymore until X happens so I'm going to pretend to get huffy" a la NWN which is really annoying, but she was my favorite character. Carth -- well, Carth had Issues that I thought weren't accounted for sufficiently by what happened to him, and then more Issues that would make any romance between he and the main character ridiculously impossible. But what really bothered me about the Carth romance was the stupid ending. Neither of them needed anything more than a shoulder to cry on and someone to be nice to them at least; and, in Carth's case, someone to tease him, which made a good change. I didn't really consider Juhani a real romance, since she just tells you her feelings for you out of the blue. I wanted a Canderous romance  ;D.

They were better than Anomen, anyway. Being forced to make the most important decision of his life is not "romantic", it's disturbing and scarily submissive. Anomen's both aggressive and passive-aggressive. This is someone to run away from as fast as possible.

Carth>>Valen>Anomen, so I'm hopeful. (The yellow dude in HotU doesn't count  :P.)
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2004, 08:09:35 PM »
  I still don't know why the friendships or romances can't be more pleasant. For example:

  "So tell me about yourself <charname>?

  "Well...the Bhaalspawn saga...and then my beloved sister was kidnapped by a strange and mean madman...etc.  I am sorry I seem to be focusing on my problems. Please tell me about yourself."

  "I had a lovely childhood, I grew up warm and supported by my family, did well in school, and decided the adventurer's life was for me. Gee, I am so sorry that the last year has been difficult. Sounds tuff. Would you like a backrub?" Or "Did you ever hear the joke about Bhaal, a Helmite, and a duck who walked into the Copper Coronet and..."

  Did any NPC, romantic or otherwise, ever ask the pc how he/she were doing? How their day was going? No all they ever wanted to talk about was the dark influences of Bhaal. If it was not Bhaal then it was always about them. Their difficulties, their problems, their childhood.

 Bah. WTH. I think there could be a happy medium between the therapy and the Bundys. Would a supportive romance or friendship be so boring?




Offline julwise

  • Relax, man.
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 114
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2004, 09:29:19 PM »
Regullus, I think we have similar ideas about this. I think the one thing that bothers me most about all the BG romances is that they're totally unequal. PC is forced to be "in-control" and all their dialogue options seem to make PC fit a certain mold. The PC is always in control of their feelings and calm when talking to the NPC unless they're just being outright mean. The PC does have the option to say that they struggle with their blood but the struggle isn't very real, and they're never in it at the moment. The PC is always the more mature, collected, care-taker. And I hate that. I prefer much more equal relationships. If an NPC can have outbursts and exhibit those "human"(elf, etc) flaws we all have, why can't the PC seem to? Honestly, I think the idea of PC-NPC romance altogether is flawed. I think it's akward and extremely difficult to implement and really not even that enjoyable. I enjoyed the Aerie/Haer'Dalis fling much more than any of the PC-NPC romances. I know that may not be the way most people feel but I just can't get my head into the place of the PC and take a "romance" with digital jargon seriously. I'd rather read an already planned lovestory between two characters with set personalities than stumble through one, making decisions for one of the characters, that attempts the impossible by trying to provide for all the possible paths of a real romance. I think that it is simply too big of a task, not to mention out of the scope of the game, to implement successfully.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2004, 10:17:48 PM »
http://equipped.msn.com/article.aspx?aid=13


  I finally have an On Topic comment:

  MSN has an article on how gaming is no longer the sole province of the "nerdy" male.

 

Offline jcompton

  • Niche Exploiter
  • Administrator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 7246
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2004, 11:33:16 PM »
Oh, MSN does so I guess it must be true? Jason publishes one, but no, that doesn't count, but if we read it on MSN, then THAT must mean it's real!

:)

Seriously, female game developers are really nothing new. Various game studios of the 80s had them, and one of the first gaming rockstars was Roberta Williams.
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline julwise

  • Relax, man.
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 114
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2004, 11:58:00 PM »
You wrote an article about the growing number of female game developers?

I was just going to mention Roberta Williams had you not already done so. I love her games. :) The King's Quest games were some of my first favourites.

Offline jcompton

  • Niche Exploiter
  • Administrator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 7246
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #169 on: July 02, 2004, 12:01:49 AM »
You wrote an article about the growing number of female game developers?

No. As I was kidding anyway, I posted my reply before I'd actually read the story.
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline julwise

  • Relax, man.
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 114
  • Gender: Female
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #170 on: July 02, 2004, 12:33:18 AM »
ha ha, yeah. I was kidding too. :)

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #171 on: July 02, 2004, 12:35:56 AM »
I'm hoping that at least the new mods or ones already in development are going to have a line that the PC can say:
So, when does it stop being about me and Bhaal, and start being about you and me?
and I hope the response won't be:
NPC romance/friend interest walks away in a huff...

also how come the PC doesn't have friend/bravado exchanges:
!You really saved my bacon there, thanks.
Nice shot Imoen!
Thanks for the assist, Viconia,
Groin. Ouch, good one Aerie!...
(At least text-wise if not voiced..., it's not like it's a humorless game, and shouldn't there at least be something like this)
etc.

No promises from me, but I've got some ideas in my head.

Offline MyFinalHeaven

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 121
  • Gender: Male
  • Question the entire culture you take for granted
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #172 on: July 02, 2004, 12:42:07 AM »
Oh, MSN does so I guess it must be true? Jason publishes one, but no, that doesn't count, but if we read it on MSN, then THAT must mean it's real!

:)

Seriously, female game developers are really nothing new. Various game studios of the 80s had them, and one of the first gaming rockstars was Roberta Williams.

That woman gave me some of my best gaming memories  :)
Come here little bird
let me lick your feathers back.
Come here to your complicated cat.

Offline jcompton

  • Niche Exploiter
  • Administrator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 7246
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #173 on: July 02, 2004, 12:53:51 AM »
There are two main reasons you can't say XYZ to a romance character--in BG2, in a mod, wherever.

1. They didn't think of it,
2. For one reason or another, it was more trouble than the designer felt it was worth.

The reason in step 2 could be "but hardly anybody would EVER choose/see that", or something like "dealing with the chain of events leading from it would be way too time-consuming." And open-ended questions are such a pain in the neck to deal with. When Keto comes out there will be a banter in which she asks the PC what his/her name means.

There are roughly 18 squillion possible answers one can give to such a question. We've got a couple dozen or so. I DARE everyone to say they'll find that satisfactory.
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline neriana

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Gender: Female
    • Darien NPC for BG2
Re: Romance-in-gaming article
« Reply #174 on: July 02, 2004, 01:00:16 AM »
Sure. David Gaider and the other writers at Bioware have some definite patterns though, and many of them are extremely annoying and not imposed by programming.
The color of infinity inside an empty glass.