Author Topic: Constructive Criticism about Sola  (Read 6454 times)

Silly XD

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« on: September 26, 2003, 08:46:49 PM »
Hello. I just recently dl the Sola mod. And I want to start off by saying that I appreciate all the hard work that went into making a mod. Something which I could never handle on my own or even attempt to create myself.

But I have some problems with the Sola mod. Not just the normal problems everyone else has had. With the Sola mod crashing the game, errors are happening with the program itself, and the challenges of overcoming Lolth's minions.  

I have a problem with the dialoged itself. I don't have a problem with the sexual choices of the mod or my main character. I can just turn that off or put on the girdle of sex change or use a female character. So I can get around that problem.

The problem I have is that the character doesn't seem like the character bioware created. I'm no expert on Sola, but I have studied the drow for years, and I believe that I'm just as qualified as anyone, including the creator of the mod, to have an opinion on how Sola acted, and how he would act in certain situations.

I believe what happen is instead of thinking of how the character would react the writer of the dialoged simply thought of what he (or did girls help you write this?) would like the most for the character to say. Although I repeat I am no expert or the maker of Sola, I still believe I have a valid opinion as anyone else.  (So if you think it’s alright then you don't have to respond to this. Because it won't change my opinion and you already have what you want anyway.  ;) )

I would much rather have Sola as a friend trying to come to terms with living on the surface and over coming emotional walls he has put into place living in the brutal underdark, then have a romantic, poetry talking, lover that wants to kiss me without even knowing who I am.

And I don't understand why he loves 19th century Earth poetry or how he can even get his hands on it to begin with.  :huh:  I believe if the author wrote his own poetry imagining what Sola would think or feel would be much better then someone else work. Plus I would like less poetry and more words from the heart. Not that poetry doesn't come from the heart. But poetry doesn't give you an insight into a character as much as having a simple conversation would.

I guess I see Sola as a strong silent type of drow that does what he has to do because he has to do it. Not because he wants to do it. I see him as more practical, and weary of others he doesn't know. He is willing to help you, but when it comes to being close to someone I'd imagine he would shut up like a clam, just because of his past experience.

I'd imagine this mod would be better as a healing friendship then an intense romance.

But I guess this is a case of what the character needs and what the players who dl the Sola mod would want. And I see that most people are happy with the mod. So I'm not going to say change it or else.

I wanted to say something so that everyone could learn what different opinions and ideas about Sola there are in the world. I don't want to offend anyone who loves the mod the way it is. If you love it that's fine. You're opinion is just as worth while as my own and I respect that. But I love the character Sola and would love to improve it. And this is what I thought I could do to help an already great mod get even better.

-Silly
 

T.G.Maestro

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2003, 05:38:45 PM »
You have at least ONE man who shares your thoughts Silly XD ;) .

Kiki

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2003, 01:01:16 AM »
I think what you're asking for would require an entirely new mod. To make Weimerfein more like Biowarefein is not a matter of a few edits here and there; it's an altogether different approach.

L_Jonté

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2003, 09:55:32 AM »
What Kiki said.  Also, anybody is free to make a mod.  Don't like this take on Solaufein?  Make your own.   ;)  

Sim

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2003, 10:05:06 AM »
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Also, anybody is free to make a mod.  Don't like this take on Solaufein?  Make your own.   ;)
Very nice. Very TeamBG.

Offline jcompton

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2003, 11:15:08 AM »
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The problem I have is that the character doesn't seem like the character bioware created.
It may not surprise you to know that two years and 97 versions later, you're not the first person to mention this. :) However, if your criticisms are pointed enough, they may make their way into the mod's dialogue.

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I believe what happen is instead of thinking of how the character would react the writer of the dialoged simply thought of what he (or did girls help you write this?) would like the most for the character to say.

Wes had more help from dead men than living women writing the Solaufein dialogue.

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And I don't understand why he loves 19th century Earth poetry or how he can even get his hands on it to begin with.

He smuggled it in from the Umar Hills library.

With the pace of Solaufein revisions having slowed to a trickle (never thought Solaufein would be stuck under version 100 while the site approached 300,000 hits!) and the issue of what some people (and to a large extent I agree with you) think an expanded Solaufein should have looked like having been discussed at length before, it's pretty safe to say that you won't be seeing any wholesale changes.
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L_Jonté

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2003, 11:30:14 AM »
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Also, anybody is free to make a mod.  Don't like this take on Solaufein?  Make your own.   ;)
Very nice. Very TeamBG.
Perhaps you are reading too much into my post, I was being neither harsh nor snarky.  It is my firm belief that if you don't like a thing you've been given, then go make your own.  Criticism of a purchased item is one thing, after all if you've paid for it you have a right to complain if it fails to live up to expectations.  But a fan mod is an amateur effort, a labor of love, and offered up for free.  Whether a person takes it or not is up to them.  The creator of a mod owes you nothing, least of all the right to nitpick the gift they gave.  So if Sola is not your cuppa, uninstall him and make a new mod that works for you.  Or make your own version of Solaufein.

Hell, when it comes down to it, you don’t even have to make a whole new mod.  Thanks to other fan created programs you can go into the dialogue files of any NPC and change their lines.  You want a Solaufein that speaks entirely in pig-latin?  Do it!  How about a Kelsey that phrases everything in the form of a question?  Make it so!  Personally, I think an Anomen that rants entirely in iambic pentameter would be vastly entertaining.

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Seifer

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2003, 11:35:15 AM »
Ususally this is my cue to launch into a big long essay on mods but its all been said here really.

I cant speak for anyone else but for Wes to lift 19th century poetry for Sola is a reasonably brave action for whatever reason it has been done.  As JC has mentioned the updates have slowed down but I think he has stoood the test of time rather well!

Seif
« Last Edit: October 28, 2003, 04:03:24 PM by Seifer »

insolent_worm

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2003, 11:12:44 PM »
I think the initial post here should be looked at as constructive criticism, as it was intended to be... I'm fairly certain that all of us are fully aware that mod participation is completely voluntary, and if we truly don't like a mod, we won't play it.  I don't think it's very fair to Silly XD to respond to such a well thought-out post with "well, don't play it."  There's a difference between constructive criticism and a simple display of distaste... and as the title states, the original post here belonged to the former.  

I actually agree with Silly XD on many points about this mod, and, having originally been somewhat unaware of the fact that Soulafein was not intended to be seamless, I was somewhat disappointed with him (and with some of Weimer's other work, but I won't go into that).  And while I am fully aware that mods are done for no profit and with nothing but a modder's well-earned spare time, mods should still strive for perfection... because, after all, what's the point of spending all that time and effort if one does not want his or her work to be as great as it can possibly be?  People download mods for a great new playing experience, not for a rough-around-the-edges idea that they'll have to go through and edit on their own to truly enjoy.

I understand that actually changing some of the things SillyXD mentioned would require a massive revamp of Soulafein, so it's understandable that his post might just be dismissed.  But despite what all the gushing reviews on WW's site may have you believe, there are those who think that some of his mods maybe aren't everything they're cracked up to be and that maybe, just maybe, there are a few things that could be changed for the better.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2003, 11:14:14 PM by insolent_worm »

Kiki

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2003, 11:28:11 PM »
I don't think that Wes would be opposed to considering suggestions that were within his conception of the character. But the initial poster's comments were not. Like him, I do not think that Weimer's Solaufein is much like the Bioware version--I'm sure hardly anyone thinks that--but in my opinion, a post that basically says, "Toss out everything you've done and start from scratch" is not constructive criticism. It's fine if he doesn't like Weimer's approach, it's a perfectly valid opinion--but there's really nothing Weimer could do with it, and therefore it's not constructive criticism.

In the past, Wes has even offered to host alternative interpretations of Sola's character, but no one has ever taken him up on it.

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there are those who think that some of his mods maybe aren't everything they're cracked up to be and that maybe, just maybe, there are a few things that could be changed for the better
Go ahead and make your suggestions then. I have known very few people who are as non-defensive and open to suggestions as Weimer.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2003, 11:30:11 PM by Kiki »

L_Jonté

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2003, 11:52:21 AM »
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And while I am fully aware that mods are done for no profit and with nothing but a modder's well-earned spare time, mods should still strive for perfection...
Perfection according to whom exactly?  One gamer's perfection is another gamer's disaster.  When I saw what I thought were gaps in the Solaufein mod, I asked Wes politely if certain things might be added.  He was very gracious.  With Kiki's assistance, new things were created and added to round out the mod.

So far, what has been offered in this thread is nothing other than the assertion that Solaufein the mod isn't exactly the same as Solaufein the encountered character.  We all knew that already.  And while it is criticism, it is hardly constructive.

Look, click this and get yourself a copy of ConTEXT.  Use it to alter any and all offending dialogue in any and all offending mods.  

L_Jonté

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2003, 11:54:18 AM »
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I have known very few people who are as non-defensive and open to suggestions as Weimer.
Somehow, I don't see myself as making that list.   B)  

insolent_worm

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2003, 05:10:38 PM »
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Look, click this and get yourself a copy of ConTEXT. Use it to alter any and all offending dialogue in any and all offending mods.

Heh, what's the logic there?  Why download the mod at all?  Why not just go through and write my own dialogue, my own mod, my own game?  This may seem strange, but I personally want to have an enjoyable playing experience without having to work out every detail on my own.  It would be like writing a book simply to guarantee that I would enjoy the reading.

And honestly, had I any minor suggestions to improve Soulafein, I would make them.  I realize, however, that making the mod suit my tastes would require too many crucial changes and stray too far from WW's original idea... I simply posted to defend the author of the original post.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2003, 05:13:20 PM by insolent_worm »

Silly XD

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2003, 08:09:38 PM »
I'm sorry Kiki and L_Jonté. I really did try to make construtive criticism. I do not know what you know or what everyone here knows. So obvious things are not obviuos to me. I feel really stupid now and I won't come back with ANY more suggestions for people who make mods. Now I see how wrong of me it was to even try to make a suggest this large or presumptous.

But you see I come from a culture of fan fiction writers and fan art artist. When we comment on each other's work we try to comment honestly what we think. At least the group I've been a part of. We try to make sure that everyone has their art work commented on and if we think that certain elements need to be improved we tell the author or artist to work on it. No one has ever told me on the fan fiction net work or on an art board that I should make my own if I don't like the author or artist work. They either thank me or they ignore me. It would not be so wrong to tell a fellow author to totally revamp a character in writing, but here it is apparently. I'm sorry. Like I said I come from a different artisitic world then computer video games.

I can not make mods. And as for that text trick you mention I didn't know it existed. Like I said I can't even begin to do what he did. So I'm grateful for what he did do. I just have an opinion like anyone else.


Anyway I will leave now and not come back. I'm very very sorry if I offened the people who did like the mod. And I really did try for constructive criticism. But maybe what I meant by constructive was not flaming or slaming criticism? Does that make more sence?  :huh:

Goodbye,

Silly XD

 

Schatten

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2003, 01:06:02 PM »
yep, i think those responses like "dont like it, make your own" stinking alot.

Sim

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2003, 01:20:42 PM »
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I feel really stupid now and I won't come back with ANY more suggestions for people who make mods.
Well, there are likely to be other mods around whose fans won't say you smell if you provide feedback. And in many cases, the modders themselves may be less harsh.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 01:21:31 PM by Sim »

insolent_worm

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2003, 06:11:04 PM »
And it wasn't even the actual modders criticizing your post, Silly XD.  No need to withdraw your comments, as you have yet to speak with the actual creator... so far, all we've seen are his overly defensive fans.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 06:12:10 PM by insolent_worm »

Kiki

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2003, 08:08:40 PM »
I don't think any of my responses up to this point have been particularly defensive, so I'd prefer that people not characterize them as such. I am, however, beginning to feel defensive about being labeled as defensive for making the point that the criticism in this thread is not constructive.

It appears that my definition of "constructive" is quite different from that of other posters in this thread. My definition is specific comments that can be used to make specific changes in a product, which I believe most people in academia and the working world would agree with. If one's definition is, instead, "anything that isn't an outright flame," well, that covers a great deal of ground, not all of which is particularly usable for making improvements.  

Offline jcompton

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2003, 09:36:18 PM »
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It appears that my definition of "constructive" is quite different from that of other posters in this thread.
Wes has been able to "construct" a lot of improvements to the mod out of comments that you probably would not have considered "constructive" on their face.

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My definition is specific comments that can be used to make specific changes in a product, which I believe most people in academia and the working world would agree with.

Which not everyone is comfortable making upon their first "hi, gang" sort of message. And hearing "come back when you've written your own Solaufein mod" doesn't seem terribly inviting for that "constructive" followup.
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Longinus

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2003, 10:50:10 PM »
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What Kiki said.  Also, anybody is free to make a mod.  Don't like this take on Solaufein?  Make your own.   ;)
No, how about modders actually stay true to the original character instead of writing a lie who bears a familiar name?

Hell, it doesn't matter either way since Weimer's Solaufein isn't the official heterosexual, chaotic neutral, warrior Drow Elf BioWare created.

No one should have any illusions that Weimer's Solaufein bears any resemblence to his BioWare counterpart, but with a name like Solaufein, that's what people might expect.

If you don't intend to remain true to the original character, invent a new character. ;)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 10:53:54 PM by Longinus »

insolent_worm

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2003, 10:51:33 PM »
I never considered 'defensive' to be an insult, but perhaps you were undeserving of the label, anyway... my apologies if I offended you.  The fact remains, though, that the comments made toward XD's initial post -- discouraging or otherwise -- have all been made by those who don't seem to have any actual authority on the subject.  I may be wrong, but I don't think that modders want honest feedback shot down before they get the chance to see it.

Aubrey

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2003, 02:51:23 PM »
Poor, Silly XD!

What you didn't know is that Solaufein NPC mod was originally planned to be a homosexual romance, and Weimer wanted him at the end to leave PC and walk a road of his own.

What you didn't know is that after that we, the crows, gathered around Weimer demanding politely to change things for our sake. One demanded Solaufein become bi-sexual and thus female PCs stand a chance; other demanded more kisses; other demanded Solaufein and PC have a child; other licked Weimer's boots along their way to ask for more poetry, more romantism, and so on.

Nasty and harsh comments, and I trust you can understand whose comments were really nasty, do not reflect Weimer's attitude and the way he perceives criticism -- whether it is a constructive one or, not. Weimer might be flattered by nice comments and little cries of admiration every now and then, but he is a reasonable person and has a judgement of his own.

I would suggest you stay and continue voice your opinion and thoughts. Most of us have the common sense to understand you meant well and your post was well-intended, although arguments weren't well-grounded.
%0

graveyardstars

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2003, 10:00:49 PM »
Me being a newbie (not to baldur's gate ii, to the mod) romancing Solaufein for the first time, I wasn't quite sure what to expect. I never sat down and tried to analyze the disparities between Ust Natha Solaufein and surfacer Solaufein. I don't see many insurmountable obstacles in that regard, anyway.

The only criticism I have for it is that he seems almost like a child, with very few of his own opinions, always asking you what you think, needing your view on the subject. That's a personal preference, however. The mod itself is excellent, it's only my own propensity for strong romantic interests that makes me feel that way. I think his more timid attitude can be explained easily, anyway. He was raised in a world that stands for everything cruel and wicked, where sisters murder sisters without so much as an eyebrow raised - and then suddenly he was thrust into this completely foreign land and society wholly alien to him, with customs and rituals he cannot possibly understand. Is it any wonder that he latches onto the only familiar faces? That he clings to the main character, the person who saved him from the Underdark? He could probably count the number of times he had seen sunlight on one hand, for bartholemew's sake. If one day you were lying in bed and the next day 5 strangers appeared and whisked you off into some underground chasm, you'd probably feel a little lost and confused yourself. Your personality would change in an instant, because that's what tremendous and sudden change does to a person.

and as for the poetry, I am a writer, and I can attest to the fact that it's very hard to just spit out poetry on the spot - especially when I'm not Solaufein. I don't have Solaufein's experiences under my belt, and any poem I could come up with would be a barren mockery of his computer-generated feelings. I may as well start writing poetry from the perspective of Bill Clinton.

it made me smile when I came across Emily Dickinson in his repertoire :D
« Last Edit: October 28, 2003, 10:21:30 PM by graveyardstars »

Offline weimer

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Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2003, 08:35:05 PM »
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Hello. I just recently dl the Sola mod.
The truly unfortunate thing here is that I just noticed this thread. Hopefully now that PLDI and my qual exam are behind me I'll be a little more attentive.

Silly_XD, thank you for taking the time to share your opinions. I quite appreciate it.

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The problem I have is that the character doesn't seem like the character bioware created.

Initially, this seems like a non-problem. TSR canon makes it (unfortunately) clear that annoyingly non-standard drow can somehow emerge from the underdark in the Forgotten Realms. However, when taken together with this explanation:

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But you see I come from a culture of fan fiction writers and fan art artist.

... everything is perfectly clear. From a fanfic perspective, Solaufein is abysmal. With that view he's clearly OOC and a cloying Mary Sue to boot. [ I personally believe that from a "mod" or "tabletop RPG" perspective, these things do not hold. Or they don't hold as much, your choice. ]

If you view Solaufein as BG2 fanfiction, it's bad. About the only thing that it has going for it is that no one slaps anyone else.

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I believe what happen is instead of thinking of how the character would react the writer of the dialoged simply thought of what he (or did girls help you write this?) would like the most for the character to say.

A few women did submit portions of the dialogue, yes. Their total textual contribution is probably equal to the dead males mentioned by Jason. However, all of that comes near the end.

Although you've probably already done so, I encourage you to check out the initial section in the README where I talk about why I wrote the Sola mod.

To address your point directly, it's actually worse than that. Solaufein doesn't react as Weimer would react. Solaufein is Weimer without a backbone. A true "Weimer"fein romance would be mostly a non-romance: possible suitors would be rapidly rejected based on philosophical disagreements. More on this later.

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I would much rather have Sola as a friend trying to come to terms with living on the surface and over coming emotional walls

That would be an interesting mod (or story). Unfortunately, I'm not the one to write it: I quite dislike stories which focus on "overcoming emotional walls". I'm sure that they can be done well ... but in general they never seem to be. As a result, my distate for the genre would result in a poor product: it's difficult to write something you don't love.

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I believe if the author wrote his own poetry imagining what Sola would think or feel would be much better then someone else work.

Hmm. That's entirely possible. I've done well in poetry competitions in the distant past, although I have reason to believe that I've lost that ability with disuse. I favor rhyme and meter: "Weimer" poetry would look, in structure (and topic), much like what is already there.

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Plus I would like less poetry and more words from the heart.

That's a perfectly valid opinion, and I'm sure that many agree with you. I, myself, happen to put a high value on "witty references" (cf. the way in which character X in an Austen novel can assume that character Y will understand a quote taken from source Z).

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But poetry doesn't give you an insight into a character as much as having a simple conversation would.

This is a very interesting point! Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree, but only in the context of this sort of game. In real life, you are correct. Given the freedom to craft a series of questions, I can find out quite a bit about a person. In the context of BG2, that would be almost impossible to implement: every possible interesting question would have to be considered in advance and mapped out. The difficulty involved is the reason why the PC usually only has 2 or 3 responses to any given scenario.

Given that the PC cannot ask creative questions to find out about Sola, I think that the poetry (and the memories, and the philosophy questions) are quiet useful. You can learn quite a bit from someone by getting a list of their favorite works (especially if that list is annotated with motives).

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I guess I see Sola as a strong silent type of drow that does what he has to do because he has to do it.

Wait for it ... wait for it ....

"I do what I must, when I must. Know this well."

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I'd imagine this mod would be better as a healing friendship then an intense romance.

It is entirely possible that a "healing friendship Sola mod" could be constructed that would be either (1) "better" or (2) "enjoyed by more people" (or even both) than the current Sola mod. Unfortunately, I cannot write such a mod. As the README indicates, the Sola romance was written as an explicit reaction against Bioware's "romance = therapy" equation. As a result, there is precious little of that in Sola. Jason (or someone else) may well want to interject that constant fretting about Phaere qualifies here ... but be that as it may, I do not believe that I could write a good mod in which the main theme was "healing friendship". I wouldn't want to.

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I wanted to say something so that everyone could learn what different opinions and ideas about Sola there are in the world.

That's a worthy goal. Do I have your permission to put this (or perhaps an updated version, if you care to email me one) up on the webpage?

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It may not surprise you to know that two years and 97 versions later, you're not the first person to mention this.  However, if your criticisms are pointed enough, they may make their way into the mod's dialogue.

That's not a bad idea, actually. I can imagine a "Solaufein, you seem like a different person than the Drow I first met in Ust Natha" dialogue. Anyone have any ideas?

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Criticism of a purchased item is one thing, after all if you've paid for it you have a right to complain if it fails to live up to expectations. But a fan mod is an amateur effort, a labor of love, and offered up for free. Whether a person takes it or not is up to them. The creator of a mod owes you nothing, least of all the right to nitpick the gift they gave. So if Sola is not your cuppa, uninstall him and make a new mod that works for you. Or make your own version of Solaufein.

I am somewhat at a loss: how can I clearly formulate the fact that I both agree with and disagree with Lisa here?

First, I agree that one's sole and exclusive "official" recourse for disappointment with a fan-created free piece of work is to drop it like a flaming yam. The author doesn't "owe" you any changes by any stretch. However, it seems clear that Silly_XD wasn't demanding changes. The original message went to great lengths to set a context and phrase things neutrally.

The part that I disagree with is the implication that no criticism of fan work is possible or justified. I think Silly_XD did the right thing in taking the time to express opinions here (in fact, it was above and beyond the call of duty). I'm not "obligated" to change anything or respond to them ... but the criticism isn't "invalid" merely because Silly_XD doesn't have an Alterna-Sola mod already created and ready for display. Being an art critic is not the same as being an artist. I can explain why one painting is worse than another, even though both of them are far beyond my creative abilities.

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You want a Solaufein that speaks entirely in pig-latin? Do it!

Yes, yes, that's all true. The discordant point in my mind is that I don't really see it as relevant to the discussion. If Silly_XD had said "I want to change the Sola mod a little bit to make it more pleasing in my own eyes", responses explaining how to edit text files and manipulate mod resources would have been right on target. In my opinion, Silly_XD said "Here are my opinions about what could have been better with the Sola mod. This will help you and others understand how I feel." What was not said was: "I am dramatically unhappy with the Sola mod and I think you must fix it for me (or tell me how to fix it myself)."

Weimer mods have (almost always) been all about giving the user choice. Tactics and Ease have five thousand options for a reason. If Silly_XD wants to make Igpay-Atinlay-Olasay, great. No one will stop that. But somehow I think that's inherent in the atmosphere, if you will. When someone complains that _Persuasion_ is not as tightly constructed as _Sense & Sensibility_, the traditional response is not to suggest that the reader manually change a copy of the book to contain better dialogue :-). It's also not expected that Austen return from the grave to set things right. Despite this, it can be informative to listen to people explain why they like (or don't like) things.

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I don't think it's very fair to Silly XD to respond to such a well thought-out post with "well, don't play it." There's a difference between constructive criticism and a simple display of distaste... and as the title states, the original post here belonged to the former.

I agree. Actually, I do think it's "fair" (in the sense that it's not "unfair" -- it's perfectly allowed and not immoral) to give such a response, it's just not useful. I'm sure Silly_XD knows how to uninstall it.

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People download mods for a great new playing experience, not for a rough-around-the-edges idea that they'll have to go through and edit on their own to truly enjoy.

This is true for almost everyone, and I quite agree with it.

Of course, it was false for me: I found BG2 to be "rough-around-the-edges" and I did edit it for my own enjoyment. :-)

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But despite what all the gushing reviews on WW's site may have you believe, there are those who think that some of his mods maybe aren't everything they're cracked up to be and that maybe, just maybe, there are a few things that could be changed for the better.

If you have some spare time, I encourage you to share such opinions with me (perhaps you already have and I don't recognize your alias).

If you think the reviews on the website are unbalanced, I encourage you to submit a more moderate one. I tend to put up every small comment sent to me ... but in general people who don't like the mod tend not to send me as much email about it. There are a few that do ... but I'm not interested in copying "your gay, i hate sola" comments. There have been a couple of very thought-provoking "articles" (like Silly_XD's original post) but I tended to consider them "too big" to fit with the standard one-line comments. However, in retrospect there's no reason not to put such things up in their entirety in some nearby location.

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I don't think that Wes would be opposed to considering suggestions that were within his conception of the character. But the initial poster's comments were not. Like him, I do not think that Weimer's Solaufein is much like the Bioware version--I'm sure hardly anyone thinks that--but in my opinion, a post that basically says, "Toss out everything you've done and start from scratch" is not constructive criticism. It's fine if he doesn't like Weimer's approach, it's a perfectly valid opinion--but there's really nothing Weimer could do with it, and therefore it's not constructive criticism.

I agree with Kiki on this point. It's not clear that I can address Silly_XD's overarching concerns ... that's not the Solaufein I want to write about. But it may well be possible to make a few smaller changes based on the discussion here.

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I feel really stupid now and I won't come back with ANY more suggestions for people who make mods. Now I see how wrong of me it was to even try to make a suggest this large or presumptous. ... Anyway I will leave now and not come back.

I'm not sure exactly how to take this, and two options spring to mind.

One possible reading is the "you didn't like my comments, so I'm leaving" version. Somehow I don't believe that the person who wrote the original post would make such a point, but it certainly sounds like that's what's going on.

Another possible reading is that you didn't expect this kind of reaction, and you don't find it friendly, so you're leaving.

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They either thank me or they ignore me. It would not be so wrong to tell a fellow author to totally revamp a character in writing, but here it is apparently. I'm sorry.

I don't think you have anything to be sorry for. I don't think you did anything wrong.

Hopefully you will, in fact, get a chance to read this. I'd email it to you, but you didn't register. Perhaps someone who knows you can let you know that I'd appreciate your continued commentary?

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And in many cases, the modders themselves may be less harsh.

Have I been harsh, Sim?

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No, how about modders actually stay true to the original character instead of writing a lie who bears a familiar name?

I'm not sure what to say to this. If you were expecting my Sola mod to be "just like Bioware" after reading the README, perhaps I could be a little more explicit in the introduction.

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Hell, it doesn't matter either way since Weimer's Solaufein isn't the official heterosexual, chaotic neutral, warrior Drow Elf BioWare created.

:-) Bioware's Sola was Lawful Neutral, but since Bioware often assigns alignments at random it's impossible to tell if that was deeply fitting (as some suggest) or of no import (as others suggest).

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What you didn't know is that Solaufein NPC mod was originally planned to be a homosexual romance, and Weimer wanted him at the end to leave PC and walk a road of his own.

Was it? :-) While I play for both teams, I don't recall ever thinking (or saying) that I was going to make Sola exclusively homosexual. Solaufein v5 (which predates WeiDU!), on Jan 24, 2002, makes it clear that Solaufein will romance you regardless of your gender. That was long before I had "legions of fans" or whatnot.

It is possible that I envisioned a "darker" ending for Solaufein than most players, however.

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What you didn't know is that after that we, the crows, gathered around Weimer demanding politely to change things for our sake. One demanded Solaufein become bi-sexual and thus female PCs stand a chance; other demanded more kisses; other demanded Solaufein and PC have a child; other licked Weimer's boots along their way to ask for more poetry, more romantism, and so on.

This sort of thing did happen (but not all of these examples happened explicitly).

Internally I often struggle (well, briefly) between making Solaufein "internally consistent with my vision of him" and "pleasing the world". Since Solaufein is already a fallen angel in this regard (and was from the start: see "no backbone" above), I usually decide these in favor of pleasing people who take the time to write courteous suggestions.

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I would suggest you stay and continue voice your opinion and thoughts.

As would I.

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The only criticism I have for it is that he seems almost like a child, with very few of his own opinions, always asking you what you think, needing your view on the subject.

That's a real problem. Unfortuantely, I don't see a real solution for it. Solaufien explicitly allows you to guide his opinions (towards remorse or pragmatism) ... that's billed as a "Feature". :-) I could have made Solaufein have one viewpoint (and it probably would have been "mine"). However, that mod would have been very different: a sort of "Tashia in Hell" experience. Solaufein would ask you philosophy questions ... and as soon as you got one wrong, he would internally reject you ... but probably not tell you about it. He'd continue to ask you questions and talk to you (about areas known to be non-disputed) ... but nothing would come of it in the end.

Unfortunately, real-world experience shows that players do very poorly with such games.

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it made me smile when I came across Emily Dickinson in his repertoire

Glad to hear it.

Thank you all for contributing to this discussion.






 

T.G.Maestro

  • Guest
Constructive Criticism about Sola
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2003, 02:56:28 AM »
I have to bow down before you Wes. This was maybe the most tolerant and thoughtful reply to fans I've ever seen.
You are a truly worthy person.

 

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