Just downloaded Sola. I love him, and I'm not gay!

[Kish]

The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a heterosexual male, but because he didn't tell everyone that--because he didn't make his sexuality clear in unambiguous terms--people are prone to presume he's bisexual.

What? He says he and Phaere were lovers, that's all. Doesn't say if he's had another male (or other females, for that matter) as a lover. And having found out this week that an old female friend of mine--we've been friends since we were 10--is in love with another woman, after having given no previous indications aside from luckless relationships with men, I wouldn't necessarily assume anything about his sexuality.

This is exactly to kind of presumptuous thinking I'm talking about.

Presumptuous?

It's pretty hypocritical to label other people "presumptuous" immediately after making a statement as presumptuous and inaccurate as, "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a heterosexual."

No offense, but you cannot conclude that a person's bisexual if they haven't labelled themself heterosexual.

No more and no less than you can conclude that a person's heterosexual if s/he hasn't labeled himself/herself.  But the only person here attempting to label the Bioware Solaufein is you.

Besides, this is a videogame character.

All we know about the Bioware Solaufein is that his former lover was a women. You can't brand him anything else unless new evidence arises.

You can't brand him anything at all (except "not exclusively gay") until more evidence than we have arises.  By implictly granting that it would be possible for new evidence to arise that would indicate Solaufein is bi, you've conceded that your initial statement--"clearly a heterosexual"--was incorrect.

Is there any proof that he swings both ways? No. The lack of proof doesn't mean he's bisexual either.

Nope.  No more and no less, again, that it means he's heterosexual/exclusively female-oriented.  You've fighting a straw man, "disproving" fictitious claims that Bioware Solaufein is an established bisexual and using that to insist people shouldn't say he could be anything but heterosexual.

We can't assume anything *more* about his sexuality.

Almost right.  We can't assume anything about his sexuality.  We can only go on what we're given--that he isn't exclusively homosexual.  And the only person who has posted to this thread so far trying to assume anything is you.

[Seblon]

I always liked Anomen BECAUSE of his funny arrogance, which really can be taken seriously!!
His one of the characters which attitues change a lot during the game...  He is (beside Jahira) much more complicated than Arie for example. I like complicated characters!

[Longinus]

Well.
Then we can ask:
Is it possible for Sola to fall in love with a woman?
Definitely yes, as the affair with Phaere shows.
Is it possible for Sola to fall in love with a man?
Maybe. We have no supporting evidence, but also nothing to the contrary.
Summed up, this would mean:
Solaufein is either heterosexual or bisexual. Which of both is up to one's fantasy.
The only thing that is not possible is that he's purely homosexual.
I see no compelling reason why a bisexual Solaufein should not be a possible interpretation of the character. Not the only one, and maybe not the most apparent, but possible. As you say, it's a videogame character. It's up to us to flesh him out, he can't complain, and no one's going to come and tell us "the truth" - as that truth about his history and character doesn't exist. If we want to go any further than the informations that the game gives us, we *have* to make assumptions. One could say that this or that contradicts a certain information from the game, but one can't just restrict Solaufein's personality to those informations if one creates a mod that does more than repeat his dialogue lines.

That said, it is up to the player to decide. In one game, the PC is either male or female. So if you play a female character, there is no reason why she should suppose Solaufein to be attracted to men. In a certain game, only one possibility comes true, and the other one simply doesn't exist.
What I want to say: You're not forced to recruit a bisexual Solaufein.

Cas

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

What I see here are people who are quick to presume that someone/anyone is bisexual if we know they like people of the opposite sex but haven't made clear/shouted out loud their heterosexuality.

So, any straight person who doesn't state beyond all interpretation that they are straight is now deemed at least bisexual. That's unfair. This line of reasoning can encompass other characters too.

All we know is that he once loved a woman. There's nothing to support any further assumptions; proof is required first and foremost, as an atheist friend of mine is always telling me.

[Longinus]

It's pretty hypocritical to label other people "presumptuous" immediately after making a statement as presumptuous and inaccurate as, "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a heterosexual."
 

Is there anything in the game serving to prove otherwise? No.

[Kish]

It's pretty hypocritical to label other people "presumptuous" immediately after making a statement as presumptuous and inaccurate as, "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a heterosexual."
 

Is there anything in the game serving to prove otherwise? No.

Very well, then.

I assert, "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a bisexual."

This statement is every bit as logically valid as yours.  Is there anything in the game serving to prove otherwise?  No.  Of course in the real world, claims should be logically supported rather than asserted followed with "prove me wrong," but you do not appear interested in functioning on a logically valid level.

So, any straight person who doesn't state beyond all interpretation that they are straight is now deemed at least bisexual. That's unfair. This line of reasoning can encompass other characters too.

And your way, any bisexual person who doesn't state beyond all interpretation that he or she is bisexual is now deemed straight.  But you somehow don't consider that unfair.

[Longinus]

I assert, "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a bisexual."

This statement is every bit as logically valid as yours...

Prove it to me. The in-game dialogue only supports his heterosexuality. If there's no further proof of any further preferences, you could only logically deduce that he could be bisexual. It's possible but unproven. That's all. It doesn't mean he is, which is what you want to believe.

Where does this end though? Who else is bisexual because they never stated they were heterosexual?

And your way, any bisexual person who doesn't state beyond all interpretation that he or she is bisexual is now deemed straight.  But you somehow don't consider that unfair.

Yes, that's unfair as well.

It is common to automatically regard people one meets as straight, at first, because heterosexual people constitute a majority. But yes, it is unfair, just like presuming people/characters are bisexual if they don't make their preferences clear.  

[Kish]

I assert, "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a bisexual."

This statement is every bit as logically valid as yours...

Prove it to me.

Just as soon as you prove yours.

The in-game dialogue only supports his heterosexuality.

Prove, not reassert.

If there's no further proof of any further preferences, you could only logically deduce that he could be bisexual. It's possible but unproven. That's all. It doesn't mean he is, which is what you want to believe.

Me?  No, I want to believe that the original Solaufein could be heterosexual or bisexual.  The only person in this thread, to my knowledge, to have claimed there is proof either way is you.

Where does this end though? Who else is bisexual because they never stated they were heterosexual?

No one is an established bisexual because they never stated they were heterosexual...or an established heterosexual because they never stated they aren't, either.

Look back at your statement, will you?  "The Bioware Solaufein is clearly a heterosexual."

That is presumptuous.  And untrue.  The Bioware Solaufein is clearly not a homosexual, but that's all we can say.  Argue that WeimerSolaufein has poor continuity with Bioware Solaufein because a fighter/wizard wouldn't be in the Fighter's Society, or because WeimerSolaufein's actions show that he doesn't believe in, "I do what I must, when I must, know this well," or because Bioware Solaufein's personality is inconsistent with a CG alignment, but not by saying we know things about Bioware Solaufein's sexuality that we don't know.

And your way, any bisexual person who doesn't state beyond all interpretation that he or she is bisexual is now deemed straight.  But you somehow don't consider that unfair.

Yes, that's unfair as well.

It is common to automatically regard people one meets as straight, at first, because heterosexual people constitute a majority. But yes, it is unfair, just like presuming people/characters are bisexual if they don't make their preferences clear.

So why presume anything?

"The Bioware Solaufein was not clearly heterosexual or bisexual.  It was only clear that he wasn't unable to be in love with a woman."  We don't have enough evidence to go beyond that.

[Kiki]

I agree with Kish's reasoning in the last several posts. Well said!

Caswallon said:

That said, it is up to the player to decide. In one game, the PC is either male or female. So if you play a female character, there is no reason why she should suppose Solaufein to be attracted to men. In a certain game, only one possibility comes true, and the other one simply doesn't exist.

Yes, for example, in my game with a female PC, Sola was not bisexual. To my way of thinking, his "bisexuality" isn't really an aspect of his character, it is a device of convenience so that players can play through his mod without having to be a specific race or gender or without resorting to Shadowkeeper.  Nothing more, nothing less.


Weimer said:

I posit that aside from a few quantifiable differences (e.g., child-bearing, body build, mental rotation speeds, etc.) most of these "differences" are social/environmental rather than innate/genetic.

My initial thought was that there are more behavioral traits hard-wired into our brains through millenia of evolution than we would like to think, and I was going to use Lisa's daughter's love of Barbie as an example. But then I thought about how whenever our dog gets hurt (usually when he's carrying a stick and he trips and it smacks him in the nose), he comes running to me for comfort, even if my husband is standing right next to him, and he certainly isn't affected by anything besides social conditioning, so there you are. Nurture wins.

Mental rotation speeds?

And to all you Anomen-haters out there ... the poor fellow is just insecure. Exercise some compassion, sheesh. ;-)

[Blackfey]

So will it be

1) Hetero until proven bi
or
2) Bi until proven hetero
or
3) Neither until Sola identifies himself

Sexual orientation is too slippery a concept to assume much about. Everyone likes to think that if you know a bit about a person's sexual behavior then you can know their "orientation".  But this is wishful thinking. If you define sexual orientation strictly in terms of behavior then you run into problems pretty quick (e.g. in the closet gay men who only sleep with women are no longer gay, straight identified women who have a one time fling with another woman become bi, etc, etc, etc). Defining it in terms of "inner feelings" runs into problems of its own, because such feelings are difficult to pin down (e.g. gay man who looks at a woman's body with desire once becomes bi, straight man who checks another guy out in a shower is suddenly bi as well, etc, etc, etc)

Probably the "easiest" crtiterion is self-identification (although it's not without its problems). If someone SAYS that they are gay, straight, or bi, then we take them on their word. At least it's clear but it does seem to miss some things....

Sorry for the academic digression; hazard of the trade (I'm a psychologist who studies gender).

Back to Solaufein:
Perhaps we can agree to "presume" nothing until Sola tells us.  

[Longinus]

The Bioware Solaufein is clearly not a homosexual, but that's all we can say.

So unless some gay man hit on Solaufein in BG2 proper and Solaufein passed him up, saying something along the lines of: "Sorry man, I'm straight", Solaufein is officially bisexual?

You want proof to cross him off as bisexual, in accordance with a process of elimination; whereas, I want proof that he is bisexual before I'll believe it.

What if I said he was probably straight?

[Longinus]

Back to Solaufein:
Perhaps we can agree to "presume" nothing until Sola tells us.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Kish]

The Bioware Solaufein is clearly not a homosexual, but that's all we can say.

So unless some gay man hit on Solaufein in BG2 proper and Solaufein passed him up, saying something along the lines of: "Sorry man, I'm straight", Solaufein is officially bisexual?

No.  That is not something anyone has said, suggested, or implied, as far as I've seen.  It's a straw man.

You want proof to cross him off as bisexual, in accordance with a process of elimination; whereas, I want proof that he is bisexual before I'll believe it.

What if I said he was probably straight?

Then you would be correct.

[Kish]

Back to Solaufein:
Perhaps we can agree to "presume" nothing until Sola tells us.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Good.  Agreed.

[AvatarofInsolence]

Could someone explain to me the purpose of this debate? I'm truly puzzled that anyone would be so concerned over someone's sexual preferance. Who needs proof that he is bisexual? Play a male PC and wham! He's Bi. Play a female and BOOM! He's straight. It doesn't seem to be that big an issue. Also, I'm not quite sure who insisted that he is bi in this thread, so the origional cause of this evaded me completely.

[weimer]

My initial thought was that there are more behavioral traits hard-wired into our brains through millenia of evolution than we would like to think,

Entirely possible ... but yet to be demonstrated one way or the other.

and I was going to use Lisa's daughter's love of Barbie as an example.

I liked to play with dolls when I was a child. :-) In fact, when my friends would bring GI Joe "action figures" over I would refuse to play unless I could "marry" Duke and Scarlet -- I would essentially play house with them. The problem with anecdotal evidence is just that -- it's anecdotal. You only tend to remember it when it supports your thesis.

cf. James Randi's "horoscope trick" (vaguely detailed here: http://barelybad.com/fphoroscope.htm ). And while ( http://www.presseofre.dk/randi.htm ) is a lovely rebuttal to Randi's attack on horoscopes, the basic notion that humans are always searching for causality and connection in a world where they can only perceive sequences of events and have a tendency to remember supporting evidence for theories is still useful.

But then I thought about how whenever our dog gets hurt (usually when he's carrying a stick and he trips and it smacks him in the nose), he comes running to me for comfort, even if my husband is standing right next to him, and he certainly isn't affected by anything besides social conditioning, so there you are. Nurture wins.

:-) Unfortunately, the same skepticism that causes me to doubt the doll claim also causes me to doubt the dog claim.

Mental rotation speeds?

Shepard and Metzler's cognitive psychology experiment. From a thousand feet, cognitive psychology (as opposed to, say, abnormal psychology or psychiatry) is concerned with definite measurements and reproducible experiments. This means that they cannot say much about the mind because they're restricted to talking about low-level things they can time with a stop-watch ... but when they do say something you can usually trust it. The point of this particular experiment is that mentally rotating an object takes time proportional to the angle (and thus physically rotating it), suggesting strongly that your brain actually builds a model of the object and moves it around continuously (rather than just jumping it to the correct angle or doing some abstract math or something). This conclusion was later supported by MRI-like experiments showing that neural firing patterns actually rotate linearly when subjects are asked to do rotation tasks. For one overview and some cites, see:

http://psychexps.olemiss.edu/InstrOnly_Pag...talrotation.htm

However, a *secondary* result of the experiments was that age and gender play a role in your mental rotation speed. As is so often the case in these tales, the difference between the average man and the average woman is very small compared to the difference between the fastest man and the slowest man (or the fastest woman and the slowest woman), so gender is not an amazingly good predictor of relative mental rotation speed. However, it is an example of reproducible, measurable gender-based physiological difference that is more quantitative than the obvious "women can have children" or the vague "men tend to be stronger".

And to all you Anomen-haters out there ... the poor fellow is just insecure. Exercise some compassion, sheesh. ;-)

Compassion? :-) Here's a quote from Star Control 2:

Humans: But our cause is just! Isn't altruism the highest pinnacle of morality?

Melnorme: No, it is not. In fact, in our culture, `giving' with no fair exchange of goods or services, is considered vulgar and inappropriate. Please do not mention this subject again.
 

[Kiki]

My initial thought was that there are more behavioral traits hard-wired into our brains through millenia of evolution than we would like to think,

Entirely possible ... but yet to be demonstrated one way or the other.
 

Yes, it's difficult to say without running experiments with reproducible results on human subjects. However, I seem to recall various studies of twins who were separated at birth and raised in distinctly different environments, but shared a variety of characteristics. Those may be as close as we'll come to actual scientifically-valid experiments.

I liked to play with dolls when I was a child. :-)

And I hated dolls. Guess that means you're a girl and I'm a boy. ;-)

The problem with anecdotal evidence is just that -- it's anecdotal. You only tend to remember it when it supports your thesis. ... Unfortunately, the same skepticism that causes me to doubt the doll claim also causes me to doubt the dog claim.

Damn, you noticed! Yes, such examples are only good for disproving theories, not for  proving them.  

Humans: But our cause is just! Isn't altruism the highest pinnacle of morality?

Melnorme: No, it is not. In fact, in our culture, `giving' with no fair exchange of goods or services, is considered vulgar and inappropriate. Please do not mention this subject again.

You sure that's not actually from Atlas Shrugged? I would suggest that perhaps compassion could be considered an expression of self-love: "I'm such a sensitive and caring person that I'll even put up with this boob. God, I'm a saint."

[Rassadihn]

Could someone explain to me the purpose of this debate?

Mu. Your question cannot be answered because it relies on an incorrect assumption. :-)

My two cents? I think Sola is a closet fictional character. Shhhh.

[GetCool]

I guess I'll add my two cents to this.  I haven't tried Solaufein yet, and I was quite surprised reading this thread about this whole issue.  But, I think I have something to add.

I think that the source of the controversy on this issue is the aspect of roleplaying involved in this game.  As for me, I will only ever play as male characters in any roleplaying game when given the choice.  Why?  I feel like they are the only characters I can identify with, simply because I am male in real life.  Even if there is no element of sexuality/gender identity in a game (meaning game characters would respond identically to you regardless of your gender, there are no romances, etc.), I will still feel compelled to play a male character, because the feeling of separation between myself and the character is greater when I play a female (or alien/creature/whatever the context).  Sure, I can play a female and enjoy the game if the game is good, but if there is a character creation element to the game and I am allowed to choose a gender, I just feel like I have to pick male.

With that said, let's look at sexuality roleplaying in games.  The truth in real life is that many straight men will be uncomfortable if a homo/bisexual man hits on them and/or makes it known that he is sexually attracted to them.  That is a fact of life: that many straight men are uncomfortable with homosexuality, regardless of their attitudes towards homosexuals, including myself.  I personally think that the hatred of homosexuals that some people have is terrible, and I have no problem with being friends with homosexuals (because I do have homosexual friends), but honestly, when a homosexual man hits on me (and this has happened), I feel very uncomfortable.  The reasons for, consequences of, and morality involved with this are beyond the scope of this debate, but you can see where I am going with this.  If the typical straight man is roleplaying a male character in BG2, it is likely they will be made uncomfortable (or will make themself uncomfortable, depending on how you see it) with a bisexual/homosexual male NPC's propositions.

So my point is this: by addressing this issue you are addressing something that is really beyond the scope of this game-related forum.  Not that you shouldn't discuss these issues, but the psychology runs very deep.  More appropriately, I think we should just look at Solaufein as a fictional game character and see his apparent bisexuality as a mechanism for allowing players to play him however they wish, and leave it at that.  The purpose here is enjoyment, and allowing a homosexual relationship with Solaufein to occur widens the player base in this regard.  So that's my $.02.

[alan]

hmm

[Adrian]

I really don't know why some people here think this game was meant to be only "straight"(and bigotted) to fit their preferances... hello!?... BG has many gay players and I think we have the right to enjoy it fully. Even if I don't see any purpouse in downloading romance-mods, 'couse for me romances in BG are the less importan part of the game, I would be pleased if gay-romances were added to the original game(Amnomen can be really sweet). And, who can tell that Drizzt, Amnomen or Keldorn were not closeted cases? You? You cannot. Nobody can , becouse it's a game, and we cannot ask them, so it's actually a question of our imagination and what we want them to be. Clear? (u'll better try romances in real life- couse there are really cute men out there   ).
   I'm more interested in mods that make this game more "intelligent". Nobody have ever thought of adding a mod with which u have to pay some money (3 gold per level of your character for example) to rest (anywhere!)?- this would make this easy game more challenging-- not to speak about cheese tactics (for example giving protection from magic scrolls to a simulcred character!) which I would make impossible with this mod... That is the essence of the game, and not some stupid Chloe or Tashia NPC....
   I still prefer BG1 over BG2, maybe couse I like all these open woods and their magic atmosphere, unlike BG2 with this boring start in the big city of Athakalta (and this boring fanatics who try to fill this game with useless lesbo-porn-NPC's).
   PS. And yes, I noticed all the str8 guys in this thread felt like to expose their sexual preferences(maybe they was scared somebody will think they are bisex like Sola if they don't tell us to be strICT)- so will I- I'm , of course, GAY, and yes, I also feel uncomfortable talking to str8 homophobic non-intelligent persons. It's interesting how homophobia and non-intelligence always come together.

Greetings to all of you and especially to gay posters!

You were saluted from the Adriatic sea coast, Croatia. Bye

   

[KIrving]

Ah Adrian, isn't it a bit hypocritical to be gay yourself, but have a problem with gay woman?!

[domi]

And, who can tell that Drizzt, Amnomen or Keldorn were not closeted cases? You? You cannot. Nobody can , becouse it's a game, and we cannot ask them, so it's actually a question of our imagination and what we want them to be. Clear?

Ahem, I think R.A. Salvatore is the person who defines the details of Drizzt's personal life.  

[Adrian]

Ah Adrian, isn't it a bit hypocritical to be gay yourself, but have a problem with gay woman?!

 No, I wouldnt have problems if these lesbian NPC's were made for gay women, and not for lonely str8 males.  

[icelus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Chloe mod IS created by a woman...

[Meira]

Huh?

I always thought that the whole idea of a roleplaying-game - were it tabletop, computer generated or live action - is the change to become someone else and emphasise that persons dreams, feelings, ambitions and desires. There is nothing that prevents that character from being different from yourself: that he or she has opinions, goals, skills and, yes, sexuality that are not yours. I admit that in the live action roleplay-game playing a character of different gender than your own can be bit challenging - for obvious reasons - but I have seen it done successfully and there is nothing that would stop you doing it at tabletop or computer roleplay.

Only your own imagination sets limits to you.

As for Sola... It never crossed my mind that I could think him strait while playing a female protagonist just because it never comes up in the dialogs. I'll just keep assuming that it does come up in a conversation when he and charname get closer but at this point the player just isn't listening. I just feel that it's part of his character did my PC know it or not and I don't see anything that would be at odds with the original Bioware NPC. Drow society tends to encourage people to keep up a role of sorts to protect sides of yourself that you might not want strangers to see. I'll accept Weimer as my Dungeon Master for anything concerning Sola.

All above IMO of course.

Cheers,
Meira