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BG2 Completed Mods => Virtue => Topic started by: Jerry on April 29, 2004, 08:23:31 AM

Title: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Jerry on April 29, 2004, 08:23:31 AM
 It goes without saying about that in Viconia romance. About Aerie romance, She and PC will "do" it in TOB. Will this kind of thing disobey virtue? I had heard that having sex before wedding is a crime for paladins.

 Another question, will virtue decrease because of letting Viconia join the party?

 Have moderator think about that if we combine Virtue and Imoen Romance we will lose virtue for romancing Imoen? (I hope not.)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 29, 2004, 10:04:11 AM
It goes without saying about that in Viconia romance. About Aerie romance, She and PC will "do" it in TOB. Will this kind of thing disobey virtue? I had heard that having sex before wedding is a crime for paladins.
Whether or not it's against the code to which paladins adhere, I don't perceive sex before marriage as evil. However, this raises an interesting question: evil or not, if there are rules against it, they should presumably fall, no?

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Another question, will virtue decrease because of letting Viconia join the party?
No.

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Have moderator think about that if we combine Virtue and Imoen Romance we will lose virtue for romancing Imoen? (I hope not.)
No. I don't see consensual incest as being an evil act, either. On the other hand, there are options to rape Imoen in the mod, which presumably would be evil. I don't handle them specifically in Virtue at the moment, however.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on April 29, 2004, 11:37:22 AM
Whether or not it's against the code to which paladins adhere, I don't perceive sex before marriage as evil. However, this raises an interesting question: evil or not, if there are rules against it, they should presumably fall, no?
If.

I don't know if there are any Realms deities who forbid sex outside of marriage--we're not talking Christianity here.  I do know that there are Realms deities who accept paladins and don't frown on sex outside of marriage at all...so if you start imposing Falling for a paladin who romances Aerie or Viconia, you're likely to hear, "But my paladin worships Sune!  What is this?  You suck, Ding0!" and justifiably, too.



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No. I don't see consensual incest as being an evil act, either. On the other hand, there are options to rape Imoen in the mod, which presumably would be evil.
Don't they get you killed?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 29, 2004, 12:03:31 PM
I don't know if there are any Realms deities who forbid sex outside of marriage--we're not talking Christianity here.  I do know that there are Realms deities who accept paladins and don't frown on sex outside of marriage at all...so if you start imposing Falling for a paladin who romances Aerie or Viconia, you're likely to hear, "But my paladin worships Sune!  What is this?  You suck, Ding0!" and justifiably, too.
Right, fair enough.

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Don't they get you killed?
I don't know. I couldn't bring myself to play that far, for some unimaginable reason...
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on April 29, 2004, 02:22:31 PM
Sim, thank you so much for the responses (especially) in the first post. :) Nightmare would know about the rule, but I think they should live in celibacy althogether. :P

@ Viconia: I don't know if that is from a western movie or a kung-fu flic, but once you saved somebody's life you are responsible for them. :) (Lesson: Too much Tarantino obviously hurts your referencing. :( )
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Zandilar on April 30, 2004, 07:12:17 AM
Sim, thank you so much for the responses (especially) in the first post. :) Nightmare would know about the rule, but I think they should live in celibacy althogether. :P

@ Viconia: I don't know if that is from a western movie or a kung-fu flic, but once you saved somebody's life you are responsible for them. :) (Lesson: Too much Tarantino obviously hurts your referencing. :( )

*sigh* I seem to keep saying this.

The Realms are not Earth. Do NOT make the mistake of assuming that the Realms share the same social mores as Earth, when it's clear just by the deity list that the Realms would have developed along totally different lines.

Some of you might be rather familiar with these links by now...

Ed Greenwood on homosexuality and sexuality in the Realms in General. (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0310c&L=realms-l&F=&S=&P=3139) (scroll down a little, it's the section of the post addressing me specifically.)
Ed Greenwood on Marriage and Church Sanctioned One Night Stands. (http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=23) (It's the second one down, a post by The Hooded One.)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on April 30, 2004, 11:26:17 AM
What's your point in quoting me above ?? None of what is said in these links is disputed in my post.  :o

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*sigh* I seem to keep saying this.
...until you learn to read my posts right. :P The links might be useful here regardless.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 01, 2004, 07:16:48 AM
It may have been in relation to the use of the word "celibacy" without basis.  ;)

Kish said it more literally: "I don't know if there are any Realms deities who forbid sex outside of marriage--we're not talking Christianity here."
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Jerry on May 01, 2004, 10:00:22 AM
 I don't believe in Christ. It just hard to be accepted in my character point. By the way, had Christ said you should not have sex before wedding?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: icelus on May 01, 2004, 11:41:26 AM
I don't believe in Christ. It just hard to be accepted in my character point. By the way, had Christ said you should not have sex before wedding?
What Christ may or may not have said is irrelevant.  This thread and forum is about Virtue in Baldur's Gate.  DO NOT turn this into a religious debate.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Jerry on May 01, 2004, 11:53:24 AM
What Christ may or may not have said is irrelevant.  This thread and forum is about Virtue in Baldur's Gate.  DO NOT turn this into a religious debate.

 Alright! Just think about what Keldorn and Anomen had said when Aerie borning her baby.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 01, 2004, 11:55:02 AM
I'm fairly sure the Bible states that sex before marriage is a sin. On the other hand, I don't really care. It's probably arguable that what is defined as evil in the real world should also be ingame, but I don't buy the notion that something is evil just because the Bible says so.

I'm willing to tolerate religious debates on the forum if they're relevant to the mod, but as soon as everyone gets offended, it stops.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 04, 2004, 01:33:20 AM
Alright! Just think about what Keldorn and Anomen had said when Aerie borning her baby.
that the child would be a bastard, being born to Aerie out of wedlock; says nothing to/about the act of sex, itself.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Alarielle on May 04, 2004, 02:02:25 AM
well, you'd think that if a child born out of wedlock is seen as a bad thing then the process that produced said child would also be considered to be bad.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: mcruz on May 04, 2004, 02:07:41 AM
It's difficult to say as there is too many gods and different customs in terms of race, culture and religion in Faerun, so we can't really assume that sex before marriage is taboo.  There's probably some gods that might be sensitive to this issue (presumably good-aliigned deities or gods who are big on celibacy or unions), but like Kish mentioned if you worship Sune for instance then it's not an issue at all.  I guess one way that might affect virtue would be your intent (having sex as an act of love vs having sex as an act of lust), but then this just complicates things :-\
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Caedwyr on May 04, 2004, 02:33:19 AM
Alright! Just think about what Keldorn and Anomen had said when Aerie borning her baby.
that the child would be a bastard, being born to Aerie out of wedlock; says nothing to/about the act of sex, itself.

Actually I think the PC and Aerie perform a commoner's marriage ritual for the Avariel.  I know there is a love talk where the two of you exchange vows and I'm pretty sure that Aerie says that is the common form of the marriage ritual other than the huge elaborate weddings.  If that is the case, then it becomes more a debate about the validity of other group's customs.  If Keldorn and Anomen make comments about a child out of wedlock, then they either do not know about the exchange of vows, or they don't consider them to be marriage and are projecting their own set of beliefs onto others; something that isn't completely out of character for either NPC.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 04, 2004, 10:40:29 AM
I guess one way that might affect virtue would be your intent (having sex as an act of love vs having sex as an act of lust), but then this just complicates things :-\
Why would either of those be considered evil?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Alarielle on May 04, 2004, 01:14:11 PM
well, it depends what the other person's intent is.  If they think it's loving sex when it's just lustful, that would be bad.  If you're both in love then I don't see anything wrong with it.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 04, 2004, 01:16:12 PM
And what if they're both interested in sex, and neither thinks love is involved?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: icelus on May 04, 2004, 01:31:36 PM
And what if they're both interested in sex, and neither thinks love is involved?
Horniness != evil.  Else, we will all be struck by lightning.
You could possibly make the case that sex without love is a form of instinct--a basic, primitive need.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Alarielle on May 04, 2004, 02:28:30 PM
we are designed for reproduction, so I don't think if two people just want to have sex it's a sin.  It's only when one is deceived in some way that it becomes a bad thing.  However, sex is always better when you care about the other person, so I don't see the point in doing it for the sake of doing it.  (sorry, I'm a hopeless romantic!)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 04, 2004, 02:44:42 PM
And what if they're both interested in sex, and neither thinks love is involved?
Horniness != evil.  Else, we will all be struck by lightning.
You could possibly make the case that sex without love is a form of instinct--a basic, primitive need.

You are kidding, ice, right? Moshe Feldenkrais, who invented the technique of the same name, said that, if the process of walking had as many moral limitations to obey as the process of sex, we would not be able to take a single step. (He was referring to the complex use of different muscle groups for walking, I can only offer the German quote verbatim). Sex like religion is private territory, off limits to the Twisted Rune, the moral majority or everybody else who feels like imposing moral standards on his fellow citizen.

I understand that FR is not about Christianity, Jesus or religion in real life, but I cannot help to feel that Jesus would have other things that would bother him much more in our christian societies than kids born out of wedlock.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: icelus on May 04, 2004, 02:59:55 PM
I'm not sure where you're heading with this, jester, but I agree with you.  Perhaps I should have said "horniness does not equal evil" instead of obscure symbols.  ;)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 04, 2004, 03:05:37 PM
Sorry, I knew what you meant. I just wanted to say that sex=ok.  ::) ;) ;D :-*
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: neriana on May 04, 2004, 03:19:51 PM
"This whole Christian theology thing is that God came down to experience life through His son. Well, how's He experiencing life if He doesn't get laid? Give me a break. And why would He not get laid, as He created the apparatus in the first place?"
-- Tori Amos

I happen to concur.

There is nothing, NOTHING, wrong with sex. There is also nothing wrong with sex without traditional romantic love. Sex without respect is highly icky.  Anyway, I don't think Virtue should touch this.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Ruben on May 04, 2004, 04:15:55 PM
Umm no where in Christianity that says Sex is evil. And their is a heck of alot more to experience life than just getting laid.  Jesus didn't came down to earth to "experience" the thrills in life, he came down to suffer. To bleed and die on a cross, for my sins and the sins of the world.

EDIT: Suffering does Not necissaruly equal masocism. He didn't come down to enjoy the pain either. ie. In the Garden before Jesus was crucified he prayed. "Father take this cup from me.... but not my will your be done" (Not an exact quote, but basically hes saying, if their could another way, let me not have to do this)

Marriage is their to protect both parties, and protect the helpless life that can be created because of sex. The experience of sex, is increased when two people come together with full trust in each other and a desire to please each other, as is the design of marriage.


Now that it has been said.  This is a gameThe last time I checked their was no Christianity as a choosable religons.  In non of the Patheons is their a god with the name of GOD or Jesus.  So basically its up to whatever the moral view in the actual world that has been created. To me seeing as their is no "Christianity" persay, then if both parties carried about each other, and your not rushing somone (like sleeping with Arie to early) then I do not believe theirs a problem.

Its a matter of respect in the person who gets to do the choosing.
Weather Virture should touch this or not, is really up to the discresion of its author. It would see acts of Rape as evil. Personally I think this shouldn't be touched as everyone comes at this with their own moral values, and as I said. This is a game, not real life.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 04, 2004, 04:19:42 PM
Jesus didn't came down to earth to "experience" the thrills in life, he came down to suffer.
Kinky.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Ruben on May 04, 2004, 04:27:03 PM
Jesus didn't came down to earth to "experience" the thrills in life, he came down to suffer.
Kinky.

Well  :) View my statments like you wish, I've finish my religous rant for now and have said my peice.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Alarielle on May 04, 2004, 04:28:20 PM
Jesus didn't came down to earth to "experience" the thrills in life, he came down to suffer.
Kinky.

I just had a very scary mental picture.  Jesus, disciples, water to wine and a whip...
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: mcruz on May 04, 2004, 05:13:31 PM
I guess one way that might affect virtue would be your intent (having sex as an act of love vs having sex as an act of lust), but then this just complicates things :-\
Why would either of those be considered evil?

I don't think that sex in itself is evil nor a crime, I only wanted to point out that the motive behind your actions does play a significant role in terms of whether it becomes a less virtuos act.  For example, planning to kill someone and suceeding is usually considered much more evil when compared to killing someone is self-defense, and the same notions apply to having sex in general.  Thus forcing your intentions on someone else just for your own gain would not be the same as both people being in love and having sex (and of course there is a lot of other scenarios in between).

However, adding this whole issue to Virtue would in my opinion be fairly difficult as there is no clearcut way to approach this.
Jesus didn't came down to earth to "experience" the thrills in life, he came down to suffer.
Kinky.

I just had a very scary mental picture.  Jesus, disciples, water to wine and a whip...

not the kind of mental picture I wanted just before lunch..... :)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: neriana on May 04, 2004, 05:23:45 PM
"Forcing your attentions on someone else" is called rape. That is evil. Consensual sex is not. They're in entirely different categories. Deciding that one kind of consensual sex is more or less virtuous than another is something that religions oh-so-love to do, and it doesn't belong in the game.

There is more to life than sex, but I'm sorry, it's a HUGE part of human experience. Like it or not, I find the idea of another being deciding to experience life as a human and avoiding sex ludicrous. About as ludicrous as I find the whole "sex before marriage is wrong" idea. But, well, I find a whole lot about Christian theology pretty darn silly, so I'll stop before I really start to offend someone.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Echon on May 04, 2004, 05:29:54 PM
You could possibly make the case that sex without love is a form of instinct--a basic, primitive need.

Similar to the need to eat, sleep, etc - all activities that should be condemned.

-Echon
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Ruben on May 04, 2004, 05:40:11 PM
Its a part, but its only a part. I've seen marriages break up cause they guy complain that they need sex.  I've seen men and women go on and on about how they have to have sex. Their is no need. Its not like food, were if you don't get it you will die.

Yes it is an important part of life, but go ask any older couple who have been happily married for 30-40 years. And most of them will probally tell you, that its the company of the other person that has made life and their marriage enjoy able, not the actual physical act of sex.

Anyway, you won't ever really offend me. I'm just a debating type person. But eitherway I will shutup now so I do not incure the wrath of the moderators as this thread has kinda got off topic.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: mcruz on May 04, 2004, 06:06:27 PM
"Forcing your attentions on someone else" is called rape. That is evil. Consensual sex is not. They're in entirely different categories. Deciding that one kind of consensual sex is more or less virtuous than another is something that religions oh-so-love to do, and it doesn't belong in the game.

There is more to life than sex, but I'm sorry, it's a HUGE part of human experience. Like it or not, I find the idea of another being deciding to experience life as a human and avoiding sex ludicrous. About as ludicrous as I find the whole "sex before marriage is wrong" idea. But, well, I find a whole lot about Christian theology pretty darn silly, so I'll stop before I really start to offend someone.

I think you're taking what I wrote too literally......I only want to say that when it comes to sex there is no black and white just like in life, and I think the whole issue really should not be centered so much around religion but about human nature and what we generally consider "evil" in terms of ethics.  The fact that there might be a rule is besides the point, people are still responsible for their own actions and must face the consequences should any arise (the idea of "sex before marriage is wrong" I also find ludicrous but it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say).  Is sex important in life? Of course and I don't think anyone in here is trying to deny that.... :)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Andyr on May 04, 2004, 07:59:40 PM
Umm no where in Christianity that says Sex is evil.

I think most denominations consider sex out of wedlock to be a sin. I'm not entirely sure, could look it up if you like.

But I don't think Virtue should touch this. :)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: discharger12 on May 04, 2004, 08:20:47 PM
I think almost all sex is okay, except rape. Rape=bad, bad=sin.

And I agree with Alarielle, sex is always better if you love the person your doing it with.

Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Quitch on May 07, 2004, 06:33:25 PM
Sorry, I knew what you meant. I just wanted to say that sex=ok.  ::) ;) ;D :-*

OK?  I don't think you're doing it right.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 07, 2004, 06:55:55 PM
Marriage is their to protect both parties, and protect the helpless life that can be created because of sex.
Bear in mind that not only do the Realms supposedly have 100% effective contraception (I think), but also that marriage is only a ceremony; a loving couple can quite happily protect the life of a child without the paperwork.

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Thus forcing your intentions on someone else just for your own gain would not be the same as both people being in love and having sex (and of course there is a lot of other scenarios in between).
Lust doesn't necessarily imply that one party is non-consenting. If two people want sex but don't love each other, I don't see a problem.

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Its a part, but its only a part. I've seen marriages break up cause they guy complain that they need sex.  I've seen men and women go on and on about how they have to have sex. Their is no need. Its not like food, were if you don't get it you will die.
If anything, reproduction is actually a greater drive in living creatures than self-preservation. But yes, considering sex is a status symbol and act of pleasure, I agree with what you're saying.

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Anyway, you won't ever really offend me. I'm just a debating type person. But eitherway I will shutup now so I do not incure the wrath of the moderators as this thread has kinda got off topic.
No moderator wrath here, since I'm usually having as much fun as everyone else. On the other hand, this doesn't seem to be going very far at the moment, since everyone's arguing on the same side... :)

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But I don't think Virtue should touch this.
I don't think it's going to, no.

...on the other hand, is sleeping with Phaere when you're romancing someone else evil?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: icelus on May 07, 2004, 06:58:58 PM
...on the other hand, is sleeping with Phaere when you're romancing someone else evil?

No, because she is HAWT and you cannot begrudge that from anyone.  Scientific fact, actually.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 07, 2004, 07:09:04 PM
...on the other hand, is sleeping with Phaere when you're romancing someone else evil?

No, because she is HAWT and you cannot begrudge that from anyone.  Scientific fact, actually.
In a f*ck me or die kind'a way  ::)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: icelus on May 07, 2004, 07:28:04 PM
Yes.  S&M negates any virtue drop.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 07, 2004, 07:31:34 PM
Heh-heh-heh..  :-X

Virtue shouldn't touch sex, lest we next be looking for stained knickers.  8)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Quitch on May 07, 2004, 08:30:41 PM

...on the other hand, is sleeping with Phaere when you're romancing someone else evil?

Considering the path all the romances lead down, one of platitudes and trust, I would say that would have to be less than virtuous to do this.  Not sure I can see it as "evil" as such, though.  I don't see this as an "evil" act however, and certainly it doesn't fit in with other virtue chances.  I think the romances already handle this situation just fine.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Ghreyfain on May 08, 2004, 11:48:36 PM
Then again, would a paladin fall for betraying such a trust?  I think so, so it ought to at least incur a virtue drop of 1.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 09, 2004, 12:48:19 AM
paladins.. I hate paladins so I will voice no opinion.  ;)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 09, 2004, 08:31:14 AM
paladins.. I hate paladins so I will voice no opinion.  ;)
:D
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: discharger12 on May 09, 2004, 09:40:48 AM
Then again, would a paladin fall for betraying such a trust?  I think so, so it ought to at least incur a virtue drop of 1.

I agree, but I would think that paladin's wouldn't even have the option to do it with Phaere.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: rreinier on May 09, 2004, 12:06:32 PM
Why not? It's not actually impossible for a Paladin to have sex with a Drow. Along the same lines, I think that good persons should also get all the "evil-only" options, just to give them the option of proving that they're good...

I do agree, though, that a 1 point Virtue drop would be in order here...
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 09, 2004, 01:43:26 PM
I think the only thing that drops should be the pants. :P A night of lust and forgetfullness. How wonderful. Is the actual drop the sex part itself or the fact that you lie to your GF afterwards?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Alarielle on May 09, 2004, 01:50:27 PM
The lying definately.  I don't think there should be a virtue drop for that though.  It doesn't make you evil, it just makes you a git
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: rreinier on May 09, 2004, 03:00:41 PM
What's the big difference between the two?

Re: jester - The actual drop would be due to both, but especially the sex part, I think. After all, you ARE cheating on her...
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 09, 2004, 03:03:45 PM
The act itself has the potential to hurt someone deeply; it's the most severe betrayal of trust imaginable. And lying to cover it up doesn't make it any better. Surely this is fairly evil?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 09, 2004, 05:27:29 PM
So there is no second drop when you lie to her? How should promiscuity be reflected in virtue? Isn't it also evil to begin to romance Aerie and abandon her for Vic? Or is this just a drop for the one Phaere situation (since sex with drow is bad)? Is this only applicable for paladins? CN thief/mages should not get a drop or what?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 09, 2004, 08:23:52 PM
I believe the idea is that it's evil to have sex with Phaere if you're in a committed relationship--that is, if AnyoneRomanceActive=2.  Nothing about sex with drow being evil (btw, Jester, why is it that whenever you disagree with someone you come up with these ludicrous straw men?).

I agree that this is evil.  However, I should note that lying is only an issue with Jaheira, whom you can tell Phaere "forced" you.  There is no option of claiming you didn't have sex with her if you did.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Bri on May 09, 2004, 09:03:17 PM
The first thing to bear in mind is that various deities have different views on sex, and this carries down to their priests.  A follower of Sune will be held to a different standard in that regard than one of Torm.

However, in general, a single Bhaalspawn slaking his lust with Phaere wouldn't drop in Virtue.

One in a committed relationship? Lying, as well as cheating on her would...especially if one is a cleric or a paladin.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 09, 2004, 11:13:33 PM
I'd add my voice to the 'I think the romanceNPC dialogue handles it well enough'.  If this is seriously being considered, and I hope that it isn't, I think a stat check is in order.  Can the PC get out of it in the first place?

Phaere actually does force the PC and there is no 'I don't want to' option without recrimination; the 'I can't' option checks stats as well, does it not?  If you refuse, the city goes hostile and the eggs are lost.

I would agree, however, that lying to your romanceNPC (and getting away with it) should drop virtue for certain characters.  A cleric of Talos, for instance, shouldn't incure a virture drop.. if anything it should increase - aren't they being true to their faith?  :P
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 09, 2004, 11:41:49 PM
I'd add my voice to the 'I think the romanceNPC dialogue handles it well enough'.  If this is seriously being considered, and I hope that it isn't, I think a stat check is in order.  Can the PC get out of it in the first place?

Phaere actually does force the PC and there is no 'I don't want to' option without recrimination; the 'I can't' option checks stats as well, does it not?
That depends on what you say after that.  If you say, "I'm a eunuch," or, "I took a vow," or, "I'm under a curse," that checks stats.  If you say, "I belong to another, someone you don't know," that always works.
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  If you refuse, the city goes hostile and the eggs are lost.
Yes to the former, no to the latter--if you refuse, you just have to fight your way to the temple and seize the eggs by force.  This is well within the abilities of the average PC.  Whether it's reasonable to expect a PC to maintain fidelity in the face of blown cover and a huge battle is of course another debate.

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A cleric of Talos, for instance, shouldn't incure a virture drop.. if anything it should increase - aren't they being true to their faith?
A cleric of Talos whose Virtue rises moves closer to Falling, closer to pissing off his most recommended traveling companions, and generally away from everywhere he would want to be.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Cybersquirt on May 10, 2004, 02:40:00 AM
Well, one thing's for sure - It's a big quagmire.  :)

(I think I've decided.. not only do I hate paladins, I think I hate virtue too (not the mod, but the attribute) ;D)
..I'm definitely tired of debates and am on sabatical  ;)

A cleric of Talos whose Virtue rises moves closer to Falling, closer to pissing off his most recommended traveling companions, and generally away from everywhere he would want to be.
Hmm.. yes.. most excellent point. So it should actually "fall" then - while this seems counter-intuitive, it's really not.  Well now, that scenario works out easily enough.  :D
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Caswallon on May 10, 2004, 04:08:24 AM
Yes to the former, no to the latter--if you refuse, you just have to fight your way to the temple and seize the eggs by force.  This is well within the abilities of the average PC.  Whether it's reasonable to expect a PC to maintain fidelity in the face of blown cover and a huge battle is of course another debate.

Which is caused by the way Bioware has implemented the Drow city. For the PC, the option would be a blown cover and barely an escape (getting the eggs maybe with a truely heroic or lucky feat). That it's actually "well, in this city are about 30 Drow, and most of them will stay well separated in their rooms until we slaughter them - we can handle that" shouldn't have much influence on the decision.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Quitch on May 10, 2004, 03:51:25 PM
The act itself has the potential to hurt someone deeply; it's the most severe betrayal of trust imaginable. And lying to cover it up doesn't make it any better. Surely this is fairly evil?

Not really, and unless you're going to start making killing people worth five points, or find a way of having quarter points for lies, then I don't see this fitting in.  Evil is skinning live bunnies and helping them stoke the fire Viconia is on, not dodging your commitment.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: rreinier on May 10, 2004, 04:06:05 PM
I disagree. If I Disintegrate a peasant, it's gonna cause him a heck of a lot less pain than I'd cause to my girlfriend when I sleep with Phaere...
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: icelus on May 10, 2004, 04:16:58 PM
Yes, but your girlfriend will still be alive, and her mother will assure her that there are "other fish in the sea."

Think about that peasant's mother.  :'(
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 10, 2004, 04:38:06 PM
So killing orphans is better than killing any other people?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 10, 2004, 04:43:50 PM
Quote
it's the most severe betrayal of trust imaginable

Sings * You ain't seen nothin yet, baby, you ain't...*

What is the virtue drop for old ironpants to neglect his family? He is scarring his daughter and her future relationships for good. Yes, cheating is not good and lying about it is also not very nice, but I had to stake five vampires before breakfast, dismantle a beholder cult, which OMFG Helm couldn't, singlehandedly and had to hand a couple of liches their behinds. I am talkin eeeevli baby not  relationship troubles. Having a go at that Festhall girl in Brynnlaw who is sooo thankful for rescuing her is evil, because uncalled for. If you are undercover, you have got to howl with the wolves, Donnie Brasco style.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 10, 2004, 05:33:06 PM
What is the virtue drop for old ironpants to neglect his family?
NPCs don't have Virtue ratings.  How much combat there is in the game is...completely irrelevant.  Is there anything in your post that doesn't translate either to, "I say you shouldn't make it impact Virtue" or to, "..."?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: jester on May 10, 2004, 05:45:41 PM
The second I must confess. The fundamental idea behind anything like virtue is that it affects everyone. True, it is only recorded and handled for the PC, but if the PC happens to be a paladin the next best example would be Keldorn I think. The discussion topic was grief caused by betrayal and the resulting drop because of an evil act.

The second part of my post hints at the differences between plain adultery and a very special situation during an undercover mission. I hope this cleared things up a bit.

The combat may be irrelevant, but your antagonists are not. The yardstick for evil must clearly be 'evil' and not bad or really annoying. As Quitch said then there should be a 1/5 drop for cheating on your partner and not admitting it. Actually admitting it could undo that drop, because apologizing and sincere regret should be rewarded too.

I say you shouldn't make it impact Virtue. :)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: neriana on May 10, 2004, 07:09:34 PM
Admitting you cheated may actually hurt the person you cheated on more than hiding it from them. So how can you judge, in this situation, what is morally right for someone else? And how can you think that cheating on someone is morally equivalent to, say, leaving Jaheira to die?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 10, 2004, 08:31:28 PM
Admitting you cheated may actually hurt the person you cheated on more than hiding it from them. So how can you judge, in this situation, what is morally right for someone else?
Again, there's really no question of admitting it or hiding it--none of your dialogue options attempt to deny that you slept with Phaere, if you did.
Quote
And how can you think that cheating on someone is morally equivalent to, say, leaving Jaheira to die?
I don't think anyone would argue that.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 19, 2004, 11:00:56 AM
Quitch proposed that Virtue should be relative, so if your Virtue is high, you receive a greater penalty for evil actions. Perhaps, therefore, cheating should only cause a drop if you have very high Virtue?

Although this introduces a problem, because it means that the more good deeds a Paladin does, the easier it is for them to fall.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: rreinier on May 19, 2004, 01:05:46 PM
Of course. High achievements set high expectations.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 19, 2004, 01:19:47 PM
Perhaps, but expectations are about Reputation, not Virtue.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: neriana on May 19, 2004, 02:22:29 PM
It's not more virtuous to hurt someone if you're already a creep, and it's not less virtuous to save someone if you're good. Even with reputation, an evil person's bad act may be the "last straw", while a good person's evil act is more likely to be forgiven as one mistake.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: rreinier on May 19, 2004, 04:08:36 PM
Perhaps, but expectations are about Reputation, not Virtue.
Not really. Gods would respond to Virtue rather than Reputation, since they see all that the party does, and why they do it.

It's not more virtuous to hurt someone if you're already a creep, and it's not less virtuous to save someone if you're good. Even with reputation, an evil person's bad act may be the "last straw", while a good person's evil act is more likely to be forgiven as one mistake.
But that evil act by the good person will have a larger impact on his reputation anyway, since his record is no longer spotless. I may be as heroic as I want, but if I cut down a peasant in the middle of Athkatla, people won't really like me as much as they would have if I hadn't. On the other hand, if people dispise me anyway, one murder won't change matters much. They always expected me to be capable of it, so me actually doing it will result in a far lesser reputation drop.

The same logic would apply to Virtue, I would think...
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD on May 19, 2004, 04:27:44 PM
Not really. Gods would respond to Virtue rather than Reputation, since they see all that the party does, and why they do it.

The gods of Faerun are not omniscient.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Mongoose87 on May 19, 2004, 07:46:21 PM
Yes, the gods of Faerun are somewhat less perfect than most gods owrships on earth.  They kind of remind of the greek gods
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: rreinier on May 20, 2004, 05:39:31 AM
Not really. Gods would respond to Virtue rather than Reputation, since they see all that the party does, and why they do it.

The gods of Faerun are not omniscient.
But they will still know quite a bit more about the party than most people, won't they?
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Joe on May 25, 2004, 11:03:10 PM
I don't know if there are any Realms deities who forbid sex outside of marriage--we're not talking Christianity here.

At the risk of being incredibly picky and annoying, Christianity is not the only religion that discourages premarital sex.

Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 25, 2004, 11:20:43 PM
Feel free to imagine I wrote, "We're not talking Islam here," if it's that important to you.
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Joe on May 25, 2004, 11:55:12 PM
I'd prefer the term "Abrahamic religions". :)
Title: Re: Having sex before wedding
Post by: Kish on May 26, 2004, 12:34:59 AM
Okay. :)