Pocket Plane Group
Miscellany, Inc. => Mod Discussion and Announcements => Topic started by: SConrad on October 10, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
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The Jerry Zinger Show has been released!
(http://www.81x.com/Authors/Plasmocat/Cute_Stuff/woohoo.gif)
The Jerry Zinger Show has been released!
The Jerry Zinger Show allows the PC and his companions to view (and take part in) the live talk show of Jerry Zinger, well known Amnish celebrity! Shows are daily, and executed largely by cutscenes.
The Jerry Zinger Show is the first Baldur's Gate II mod ever to include a brand new movie, created from scratch, which installs flawlessly.
The mod features:- Comprehensive Voicing
- Unique Movie
- A New area
- The very latest in WeiDU coding
- Nine laugh out loud episodes
Mod Info (http://www.spellholdstudios.net/mods/jz/) - Readme (http://www.spellholdstudios.net/mods/jz-readme) - Mod Forum (http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showforum=200) - Download (http://www.spellholdstudios.net/downloads#jz)
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[drunk]
How much time did you guys waste making such a worthless mod?
This is a sad and/or sucky day in IE modding.
Edit: WAY TOO RUIN MY THANKSGIVING.
[/ddrunk]
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[drunk]
How much time did you guys waste making such a worthless mod?
This is a sad and/or sucky day in IE modding.
Edit: WAY TOO RUIN MY THANKSGIVING.
[/ddrunk]
Posterity was here.
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Well done Ghreyfain!
I do hope this means that you will stop venting your Moral Outrage at the quality of Moderators elsewhere!
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They're free to make jokes about mods I've made without being censored, if that's what you're getting at.
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Have you been censored as I can't recall?
They're free to make jokes about mods I've made without being censored, if that's what you're getting at.
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Oh, no. Not another thread with a starting post then 999 discussing a comment made by someone...
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Typically I'd agree. I don't see anything wrong with the mod though, it ranks up there with Goo in terms of originality and humour.
Tis new at least, which I just hope people will see. Objecting to it is all fair and well but at least give a quantifiable reason as opposed to "your mod sucks."
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I'm not saying you should not dispute the comment you don't agree with, probably you should, i'm just saying that too often things take such a turn (i.e. the matter at hand gets drowned in some argument)
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How much time did you guys waste making such a worthless mod?
Pray tell why it's worthless, mr Fain, and how you arrived to the sentiment. Did you play it through only to find that it's completely horrible, or did you just look at the name of the mod and the name of the authors before jumping to the conclusion?
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Typically I'd agree. I don't see anything wrong with the mod though, it ranks up there with Goo in terms of originality and humour.
Goo was a brief project which served as an example of NPC development. This is a project spanning months which serves as [please insert coins].
Did you play it through only to find that it's completely horrible, or did you just look at the name of the mod and the name of the authors before jumping to the conclusion?
At a wild guess, I'd say it might be something to do with the fact that you've made a mod based on Jerry Springer. :)
Also, I found a typo:
Nine laugh out loud episodes
I believe you mean "Nine LOL episodes".
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Wouldn't Cloakwood Squares be a better analogy than Goo?
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There hasn't been too many objections thus far (namely, two) and the forum is (and has been) there for any objections/criticisms to be made.
Pity you'd not chose to look at the positives. It's a good sign that PPG & SHS have released a mod each recently.
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...or did you just look at the name of the mod and the name of the authors before jumping to the conclusion?
On the contrary, it saddened me to see things like "the first Baldur's Gate II mod ever to include a brand new movie" as being associated with a mod that, really, who's going to want to play beyond a quick glance? With all the time you spent developing this mod, what other great works could you have made that people would've actually wanted to play? I think you owe me like two Tutu quests and a shop, at the very least.
Typically I'd agree. I don't see anything wrong with the mod though, it ranks up there with Goo in terms of originality and humour.
Goo is terrible, and when people ask me to update him with new weapons or something, I laugh (at them or with them, sometimes both). I tinkered with him until I knew how the ropes of NPC creation worked, more or less, then forgot all about him.
Wouldn't Cloakwood Squares be a better analogy than Goo?
I only ever played that one once, too. As an exercise in modding skills, sure, it's great. Last I heard, though, Conrad and Shed were already competent, and I'd prefer to be able to play--pardon my french--RAEL MODZ.
All that said, perhaps this was a good exercise in learning to do new things (the movie, for instance). If that's the case, I guess that's cool. As for merit on the playability scale, it's a joke mod, to be relegated to the Bin of Smelly Mods That Smell with the likes of the Turnip Golem and Goo.
Oh, and don't worry, you didn't actually ruin my thanksgiving. :)
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All that said, perhaps this was a good exercise in learning to do new things (the movie, for instance). If that's the case, I guess that's cool.
Well, at least you admit it's not totally useless ;). It was fun to make and speaking for myself, I learnt some things along the way.
As for merit on the playability scale, it's a joke mod, to be relegated to the Bin of Smelly Mods That Smell with the likes of the Turnip Golem and Goo.
Don't worry. I'm sure some will find it funny.
Oh, and don't worry, you didn't actually ruin my thanksgiving. :)
Good to hear :).
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and the forum is (and has been) there for any objections/criticisms to be made.
The problem is, when we come to ShS and post our thoughts, we're frequently told to take them elsewhere, with the result that nobody's really quite sure where we're supposed to be putting this stuff.
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Granted I haven't actually played the mod yet, but I did listen to the OGG files and they sounded quite good.
Joke mod or not these guys did put some time and effort into it, plus I'm sure they had a great time whilst they did it.
We all need a few laughs these days... don't we?! :P
/me runs and hides while someone yells, "She's a witch! Burn her!"
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I'm just checking to see if you weigh the same as a duck...
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This is one of those suck ass mods yes? How lame can you get, really?
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At a wild guess, I'd say it might be something to do with the fact that you've made a mod based on Jerry Springer. :)
I've been horrified since the concept first appeared. I completely loathe Jerry Springer and talk shows of that ilk. Hell, I hate watching Oprah! Imagining Jerry Springer-style cutscenes within BG2 is just repulsive to me, so I won't be giving this project a spin around the block like I typically do with NPCs and quests.
Wouldn't Cloakwood Squares be a better analogy than Goo?
Joke mods have their place, but a big distinction here is things like Cloakwood Squares and the Bruce mods were done over a day or two, not months. I think it's unfortunate that all that effort wasn't put towards one of the Studios NPC projects yet to be released. If you had fun making it, good -- that's a major reason to make any mod. From a potential player's standpoint, though, this isn't my idea of fun.
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Now I also hate Jerry Springer, so I haven't tried this mod... but I do believe we need more "joke" mods, especially with some effort put into them, not those 1 day ones. Several people here seem to suggest that spending few months on a joke mod is not a good idea... why? Are you saying only "serious" stuff can be done seriously ;)? Are you saying Terry Pratchett wasted his life away? :'(
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It's obviously a point for debate, but I just don't believe that a joke mod is inherently worse than any other type, regardless of the way it's put together, and its content. I think it's a bit sad to condemn this mod on the concept without taking the time to play it.
Ronnie Barker once said "It's better to make people laugh than cry", and I feel sure he had some kind of point.
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So if someone's intention is to make you laugh, they're wasting their time, eh? Try telling that to the creators of the Monkey Island games (the first two of which are widely regarded as two of the best games ever made), <insert your favourite comedian here>, anyone who's ever written a humourous fanfic, etc, etc.
I could make suggestions for numerous activities certain members of the community should stop doing in favour of spending more time working on their mods. However, I won't, since their life is their life, and thus what they get up to is entirely up to them. If someone makes a mod, most likely they *want* to make that mod, and no other member of the community has any right whatsoever to say what they should or should not be doing. It's unlikely that the apparent "mod snobbery" being perpetrated in this thread is going to change their minds either.
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For a game in which convincing immersion into the fictional world is paramount, there certainly seems to be a very strong case to suggest that a mod which adds sensible, believable content is superior to one which shatters this vital effect to achieve a few laughs. You can moan about hypocrisy or snobbery as much as you like, but it won't change the fact that if you think the best thing to add to BG2 is wall-breaking comedy then you're probably modding the wrong game. I'm sure a Chinchilla NPC might fit very nicely into Monkey Island (which I've never played), but in the case of BG2, it'd be a travesty.
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Remember that not everyone plays the game for its immersion factor.
So, do you think everyone who's ever written a humorous BG2-related fanfic has wasted their time too? That's a *lot* of people! :P
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Anybody who's spent months producing a humorous fanfic should probably look into other hobbies, yes. You simply can't ignore the time factor. The mod is clearly the result of a significant amount of work. The forum has been active a year-- that's multiple Quest Packs, or a Kelsey or so. Which would *you* say was better use of time? And that's discounting the number of developers. I really dread to think of the things that could have been produced in a similar period. If there's anybody out there who'd rather have one immersion-breaking comedy mod than a score of new quests, then they are more than welcome to consume my member, since I know what I'll be encouraging people to make. In the meantime, please continue to defend the practice. Maybe you'll get Igi to release another Game-be-Gone or something. :)
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Come oi! BG as such includes many a comic element, some of them (Minsc-Boo) in the foreground... It's not the most serious RPG there is...
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Anybody who's spent months producing a humorous fanfic should probably look into other hobbies, yes. You simply can't ignore the time factor. The mod is clearly the result of a significant amount of work. The forum has been active a year-- that's multiple Quest Packs, or a Kelsey or so. Which would *you* say was better use of time? And that's discounting the number of developers. I really dread to think of the things that could have been produced in a similar period. If there's anybody out there who'd rather have one immersion-breaking comedy mod than a score of new quests, then they are more than welcome to consume my member, since I know what I'll be encouraging people to make. In the meantime, please continue to defend the practice. Maybe you'll get Igi to release another Game-be-Gone or something. :)
The time argument assumes that the said people would do in that time a serious mod should they not be doing a comedy one. This assumption may be flawed, they might have spent the year eating peanuts or/and watching programmes about monkeys ;). So we may have a case: either we have a comedy mod or one mod less, and I say it doesn't hurt to have one more, whatever it may be.
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Personally I'd much rather have new quests than a bunch of flirts (come on, this is an RPG not the Sims!) or a romance for an Bioware NPC, but as I said no-one has the right to go around telling other modders what they should and shouldn't be doing (well, unless the other modder(s) are part of a team you're the leader of, or whatever ;)).
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I'd go so far as stating that IWD is possibly a more immersive game when holding games up to that yard stick.
And having that concept as the barometer on which mods have to measured can be potentially damaging. Not all deviance is a bad thing.
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Personally I'd much rather have new quests than a bunch of flirts (come on, this is an RPG not the Sims!) or a romance for an Bioware NPC, but as I said no-one has the right to go around telling other modders what they should and shouldn't be doing (well, unless the other modder(s) are part of a team you're the leader of, or whatever ).
Yes, I fully concede that we are in no position to stop people producing awful mods. However, I do not agree that we should all just sit around saying "great job guys, when's the next one coming?" If somebody fucks around producing nonsense for a year, I suggest telling them what you think so they don't do it again, not congratulating them on their efforts or tiptoeing around with your politically correct gear on. I repeat that if you want to defend the production of awful joke mods, then fine, I can only assume you enjoy them better than the alternatives. Otherwise, maybe you should consider encouraging SC to finish Khadion or something.
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Since it's highly doubtful anyone is forced into making a mod (awful or otherwise), chances are good that they actually want to work on it. For me, that's reason enough to let them get on with it; I'm a strong subscriber to the philosophy that if you're producing a mod as hobby, the primary target audience should be yourself, with other people being a secondary concern. Besides, if someone wants to work on a mod, why would someone else coming along and telling them they shouldn't do so suddenly change their minds? All you're really doing is wasting your own time... which of course *you* could better spend working on mods :P.
Also, whether this particular mod is an "awful joke mod" is a subjective opinion belonging to yourself and a few others, not an objective fact. Clearly other people disagree with that assessment, including the mod makers. Why should anyone besides yourself gave any more weight to your opinion than any others?
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For me, that's reason enough to let them get on with it; I'm a strong subscriber to the philosophy that if you're producing a mod as hobby, the primary target audience should be yourself, with other people being a secondary concern.
But that doesn't explain why you think we should all sit back and let the congratulations flow in, rather than letting the authors know what we think. Are you, perhaps, deep down, arguing that we should withold our negative criticisms?
If someone wants to work on a mod, why would someone else coming along and telling them they shouldn't do so suddenly change their minds?
Because in the case of joke mods, the aim is to provoke an audience reaction. Igi doesn't release Game-be-Gones so he can enjoy them in the comfort of his own front room.
Also, whether this particular mod is an "awful joke mod" is a subjective opinion belonging to yourself and a few others, not an objective fact. Clearly other people disagree with that assessment, including the mod makers. Why should anyone besides yourself gave any more weight to your opinion than any others?
My apologies for the unclear phrasing. Perhaps you'll understand better if I say:
Yes, I fully concede that we are in no position to stop people producing mods which I think might be awful in my subjective opinion (although I fully respect anybody else's right to disagree with me). However, I do not agree that we should all just sit around saying "great job guys, when's the next one coming?" If somebody fucks around producing nonsense for a year, I suggest telling them what you think so they don't do it again, not congratulating them on their efforts or tiptoeing around with your politically correct gear on. I repeat that if you want to defend the production of awful joke mods, then fine, I can only assume you enjoy them better than the alternatives. Otherwise, maybe you should consider encouraging SC to finish Khadion or something.
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And I see Seifer's seen fit to point people to this thread before the vote in the poll I started on Studios. I can only conclude that he's slightly worried about what the outcome would be if people don't see what meanies we are here.
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You've yet to explain how, if a mod maker wanted to work on the original mod and personally likes the end results, telling him what you think will preventing him from making similar mods in the future. To me, complaining about something which isn't going to change is a waste of time, time which could have been spent making a new quest instead.
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Mod community in which every mod regardless of its quality is praised is not my favourite model. But personally I also dislike the aproach: "I've never played or seen/heard part of this mod but I think it's awful cause it's supposed to make people laugh :-X Now this is my favourite game and I don't wanna hear any laughter!" and this is basically what has been said.
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I've no problem with people commenting on the quality of mods, but telling modders what mods they should and should not be working on is something else entirely.
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You've yet to explain how, if a mod maker wanted to work on the original mod and personally likes the end results, telling him what you think will preventing him from making similar mods in the future.
Well, there was the bit where I mention how joke mods are primarily attention-seeking devices, or the previous discussions where I note that better modders tend to accomodate criticism rather than shrug it off.
To me, complaining about something which isn't going to change is a waste of time, time which could have been spent making a new quest instead.
You may well ask what I'm doing inbetween posts here. The answer would be "incorporating Bons' IM entry into Quest Pack" interspersed with "cooking sausages". I'd estimate I've spent maybe 5 minutes total actively writing posts here, which is really nothing compared to the potential development time of a Jerry Zinger followup. (Incidentally, do you want a Jerry Zinger followup, or are you not allowed to say in case somebody cries?)
But personally I also dislike the aproach: "I've never played or seen/heard part of this mod but I think it's awful cause it's supposed to make people laugh
I have a major problem with this reasoning. It's an argument that's been used since the start of the thread, but it's also essentially meaningless. I don't need to play the mod to identify that it's a fourth wall-breaking humour mod. Not dissimilarly, I haven't tried sleeping with men, but I'm fairly sure I wouldn't like it.
I've no problem with people commenting on the quality of mods, but telling modders what mods they should and should not be working on is something else entirely.
So I'm supposed to say "I dislike this mod, but please, carry on making it anyway"? That sounds plain daft to me.
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Immersion, humor, waste of time issues aside, IT'S STILL BASED ON GODDAMNED JERRY SPRINGER!!! :'(
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So I'm supposed to say "I dislike this mod, but please, carry on making it anyway"? That sounds plain daft to me.
No, you're supposed to realize that people aren't going to stop working on mods which they want to work on just because someone else tells them to. Continue telling them what they should and should't do if you really, really want to, but understand that they're probably going to ignore you, and simply carry on doing whatever it is they obviously enjoy doing instead.
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I'm not going to cease posting my opinions [on Studios management], but that doesn't stop you from trying to stop me. Is there some difference here?
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I'm not trying to stop you doing any thing, I'm just trying to help you realize that certain things (such as telling people what mods they should work on, criticizing another site's forum policy, etc) are highly unlikely to have any of the results you wish them to (unless of course your desire is to stir up ill-feelings, but I'm happy to say it's probably not). If you ever come to that realization, and you yourself decide to stop, that'll be entirely your decision.
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That sounds awfully subjective to me.
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Who the fuck made you "He Who Decides What's Positive and What's Not"? You also forgot your signature patronizing smiley. Here--borrow one. :)
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Would you care to explain how I've decided what's positive and what not, or do you simply enjoy randomly insulting people and spitting out bad language? What's positive and what's negative behaviour should be prime examples of use of common sense. Besides, I'd rather be "He Who Decides What's Positive and What's Not" than "He Who Decides What Mods Everyone Can And Cannot Work On".
Oh, and if your psyche is so messed up that you see people treating others in a condescending matter when in reality they're merely giving an indication that they're joking, I'm afraid that I'm not the one to blame for it.
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Besides, I'd rather be "He Who Decides What's Positive and What's Not" than "He Who Decides What Mods Everyone Can And Cannot Work On".
There are some very weird factors at work here, because standing back:
- I've suggested that SC working on Jerry Zinger isn't a good idea.
- You've suggested that me posting like that isn't a good idea.
It doesn't take much to work out that we're actually doing the same thing. Why this suddenly means I'm trying to be a dictator and you're trying to send me on a journey of self-help, I'm not really sure.
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But I've explained why I believe complaining about the types of mods other people are working on won't serve any useful purpose (i.e. it most likely won't stop them working on those types of mod, but it most likely will cause ill feelings all round - as this very thread has demonstrated), and there's a chance - slim perhaps, but still a chance - other people may understand and perhaps even agree with my reasoning.
From what I can see, the only reason you've given for not wanting other people to work on joke mods is that you personally prefer other types of mods, which - no offence to yourself - doesn't have all that much potential to influence other peoples' opinions. If you really want to achieve your goal of less jokes / more quests, I'd suggest providing the people whose opinions you're attempting to influence with more and/or stronger reasons, ones which would have positive benefits for them; "it helps prevent flamewars" is perhaps a good start, though maybe not ideal. I personally wouldn't be averse to seeing a PPG article entitled something like "10 reasons to make a quest mod".
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But I've actually explained why complaining about the types of *criticism* other people are *implying in their posts* doesn't serve any useful purpose (i.e. it most likely won't stop them *from expressing their opinion*, but it most likely will cause ill feelings all round - as this very thread has demonstrated). From what I can see, the only reason you've given for not wanting other people to *express their thoughts* on joke mods is that you prefer other types of *posts*. If you really want to achieve your goal of less *criticism* / more *praise*, you're going to have to provide other *posters* with more reasons to do so, ones which would have positive benefits for them; "it helps prevent flamewars" is perhaps a good start...
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I shouldn't have posted the previous one. :) But that one broke my resolve:
Oh, and if your psyche is so messed up that you see people treating others in a condescending matter when in reality they're merely giving an indication that they're joking, I'm afraid that I'm not the one to blame for it.
It is very hard to tell when they are joking and when not. It doesn't mean one's psyche is messed up, it just means people are different. And no, I would not use a smiley here.
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From what I can see, the only reason you've given for not wanting other people to *express their thoughts* on joke mods is that you prefer other types of *posts*.
Apparently you can't see very well.
It is very hard to tell when they are joking and when not.
Of course, especially in a multicultural, purely non-verbal forum. But the thing is, that's actually one of the main reasons smilies were invented in the first place. My "apparently you can't see very welll" comment looks like an insult, but is intended to be a joke. However, since it's apparently more acceptable to appear insulting than to appear patronizing, I've left it without one.
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From what I can see, the only reason you've given for not wanting other people to work on joke mods is that you prefer other types of mods.
Then you're not looking closely enough, because I've already mentioned their insuitability for BG2, their destruction of the immersion, and their lack of staying power. If you don't like those reasons, then fine, I don't like your explanations of why I should restrain my posting much either. Either way, you're trying to enforce your views on how things should be done every bit as much as I am. I don't have a problem with that, but you're normally the first to call out hypocrisy.
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For a game in which convincing immersion into the fictional world is paramount, there certainly seems to be a very strong case to suggest that a mod which adds sensible, believable content is superior to one which shatters this vital effect to achieve a few laughs. You can moan about hypocrisy or snobbery as much as you like, but it won't change the fact that if you think the best thing to add to BG2 is wall-breaking comedy then you're probably modding the wrong game. I'm sure a Chinchilla NPC might fit very nicely into Monkey Island (which I've never played), but in the case of BG2, it'd be a travesty.
Agreed. Were it a Donahue mod, however, you'd be on your own.
And I see Seifer's seen fit to point people to this thread before the vote in the poll I started on Studios. I can only conclude that he's slightly worried about what the outcome would be if people don't see what meanies we are here.
I'm probably missing the magical context, but it looks completely unwarranted to me.
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I think "messed psyche" comment was an insult, smiley or not. This I can see, even if I indeed do not see very well.
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Then you're not looking closely enough, because I've already mentioned their insuitability for BG2, their destruction of the immersion, and their lack of staying power.
Those are all reasons why you prefer other types of mods, not reasons for other people to work on other types of mods.
If someone has made a mod which you feel isn't immerisive or suitable for the game, it seems reasonable to assume the author either feels his mod *is* immersive and suitable for the game, or doesn't mind that it's not immersive or suitable for the game. Siimilarly, if someone makes a mod which people are only likely to ever play through once, there's a good chance they already realize that fact and don't mind in the slightest. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but someone pointing out things I already know is unlikely to change my opinion.
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I think "messed psyche" comment was an insult, smiley or not. This I can see, even if I indeed do not see very well.
You have to speak around them, else you risk getting sucked into the vortex. Just make sure you direct your responses off into the ether, refraining from directly addressing anyone involved, and you should be safe. Don't bother scheduling that appointment with the optometrist.
I usually take the SimSide in these matters, so I don't do a lot of posting.
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Thanks, devSin! :) (it was a grateful smiley) I'd do it, I guess.
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Those are all reasons why you prefer other types of mods, not reasons for other people to work on other types of mods.
If a mod's released to the public, I'd say "people dislike it" is a pretty compelling reason for the author to reconsider his or her stance on it. (This is where you try the "you should mod for your own satisfaction" argument again, but consider once more my earlier assertion that joke mods are clearly intended to provke a response from the player.) Even setting that aside, "lack of staying power" is clearly a proposed characteristic of the type of mod rather than my personal opinion on anything particular.
If someone has made a mod which you feel isn't immerisive or suitable for the game, it seems reasonable to assume the author either feels his mod *is* immersive and suitable for the game, or doesn't mind that it's not immersive or suitable for the game.
And similarly, if I make a post that you feel is useless, it seems resaonable to assume that I either feel it is useful, or I don't mind if it's not. I'll play my "same difference" card again to this one. Really, you're going to have to back down on one of these issues. :)
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But personally I also dislike the aproach: "I've never played or seen/heard part of this mod but I think it's awful cause it's supposed to make people laugh
I have a major problem with this reasoning. It's an argument that's been used since the start of the thread, but it's also essentially meaningless. I don't need to play the mod to identify that it's a fourth wall-breaking humour mod. Not dissimilarly, I haven't tried sleeping with men, but I'm fairly sure I wouldn't like it.
Maybe I didn't put it clearly enough. I very much dislike J.S. talkshow and thus won't play them mod, but it's my personal preference, the mod may have exenllent qualities to be percived by those who "are into this kind of thing. You may not wish to sleep with men but this does not necesserly mean that it is nice or wise for you to tell people who do that they should not waste time on this. Hope now my meaning is clear.
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You've changed your argument. Previously, you were stating that I shouldn't object to the mod without playing it. Now, you're stating that I shouldn't discourage others from playing it. There's a fundamental difference here, but I'm glad you've reconsidered the first proposal.
It's vaguely entertaining, incidentally, that the people defending the mod here also seem to be conceding that they wouldn't actually play it. (If NiGHTMARE never said this explicitly, then I'm going to hazard a guess that Jerry Springer doesn't appear in canon D&D.)
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You've changed your argument. Previously, you were stating that I shouldn't object to the mod without playing it. Now, you're stating that I shouldn't discourage others from playing it. There's a fundamental difference here, but I'm glad you've reconsidered the first proposal.
It's vaguely entertaining, incidentally, that the people defending the mod here also seem to be conceding that they wouldn't actually play it. (If NiGHTMARE never said this explicitly, then I'm going to hazard a guess that Jerry Springer doesn't appear in canon D&D.)
I never used your stating your opinion without playing it as an argument, I simply wanted to underline that your opionion of the mod is somewhat of a genre protest. As I said in one of the posts on the first page I'm not into this so won't play it, but this does not mean it is awful nor that (especially) it shouldn't have been made. If I wasn't clear, hell it's just me I gotta a fever. BTW it's a historical moment for me, for the first time since coming to the PPG do I disagree with Ding0 :pirate
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Would you believe I was attacked from about eight different people when logging in today, all linking me to this topic?
Seriously, eight might have been an overexaggeration but it was still enough for me to find it quite humourous.
In any case, I fully acknowledge people's right to say that my mod is sucky, that I'm sucky and that I could spend my time on something worthwhile instead of having a bit of fun. However, it's my right to be able to disagree with that sentiment. :)
I laughed while brainstorming topics of episodes, I laughed while reading, writing and editing them, I laughed while coding the mod and I laughed while testing it. Do I need any other reason to do something? I also learned quite a lot - and my experimenting with this mod resulted in pioneering modding technique and a few tutorials on various subjects. Is that wasted time?
Humour and laughter is something we've seen rather seldom in the modding community lately, and I would say that this three pages long discussion is proof enough on that we sometimes should "live and let live".
I would also like to direct a personal thank you to Sim for bringing attention to Khadion (http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showforum=152) - the project I now will devote most of my modding time on.
I also find it quite funny that today's posts in this topic comprises 83% of the total amounts of posts today here at PPG. (As of 9.45 PM CET, including my own post).
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Humour and laughter is something we've seen rather seldom in the modding community lately,
Clearly you missed Mang0's Hip-Hop Mod, which provided all the humour we'll need for the next few years.
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Yes, I completely missed that one too.
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Clearly you missed Mang0's Hip-Hop Mod, which provided all the humour we'll need for the next few years.
For real? Can we get some downloading on that?
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Clearly you missed Mang0's Hip-Hop Mod, which provided all the humour we'll need for the next few years.
For real? Can we get some downloading on that?
Now what is interesting is that the above post and Sim's were from different IPs. :)
In some vague attempt to be on-topic (and since I've not posted in this thread) I am afraid to say I'm taking the middle ground on this one. I don't know if I will play the mod, given that I don't like Jerry Springer. I personally would (obviously) prefer everyone make mods I'd love to play, but I am not really that fussed by people making joke mods/others I will not play if they want to. As long as it is clearly obvious what the function of the mod is, it's fine.
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Owner of life designated as "SConrad"
<IS>: SConrad.
= Choices made in the life designated as "SConrad" is solely decided by;
<Answer>: SConrad.
NB. I've had to much coffee.
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Perhaps I should have pointed out that you don't have to like Jerry Springer to like the Jerry Zinger Show.
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I'm not going to cease posting my opinions [on Studios management], but that doesn't stop you from trying to stop me. Is there some difference here?
They're Facists over there. They edit, delete your posts and probably make posts under your name!
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Only those SHS idiots could come up with a mod like this. So much for the great mods that came from the former FW/FWS.
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Would you believe I was attacked from about eight different people when logging in today, all linking me to this topic?
Contrary to your own little world, you are not that popular of a person.
In any case, I fully acknowledge people's right to say that my mod is sucky, that I'm sucky and that I could spend my time on something worthwhile instead of having a bit of fun. However, it's my right to be able to disagree with that sentiment. :)
You're right on that you do suck.
I laughed while brainstorming topics of episodes, I laughed while reading, writing and editing them, I laughed while coding the mod and I laughed while testing it. Do I need any other reason to do something? I also learned quite a lot - and my experimenting with this mod resulted in pioneering modding technique and a few tutorials on various subjects. Is that wasted time?
Humour and laughter is something we've seen rather seldom in the modding community lately, and I would say that this three pages long discussion is proof enough on that we sometimes should "live and let live".
Sounds like you are either high or quite insane. :D
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Dictatorship (http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=17489) at its best. :)
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A dictator is a single person, and since that thread has seen moderation by two people (neither of whom are the overall leader of ShS), it is thus not an example of dictatorship at all.
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A dictator is a single person, and since that thread has seen moderation by two people (neither of whom are the overall leader of ShS), it is thus not an example of dictatorship at all.
A dictatorship with his henchmen doing his dirty work.
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Provide us with proof that Seifer and Shed's actions were at the command of SConrad, and I'll accept that you're correct.
EDIT: Actually, I'll also need proof that SConrad has broken ShS' own rules. After all, to be a dictator, a person must believe that the law does not apply to him.
EDIT 2: Oh, and you'll also need to prove that ShS staff never do anything which SConrad disapproves of. A person can't be a dictator if his minions are getting up to things he doesn't want them to. This will need to be extremely strong proof, since there's already plenty of proof that ShS staff *have* done things SCronad disapproves of (myself included).
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We edited a post and reacted to deliberate provocation.
Now we all suck, we're all facists, dictators and do "dirty work" for each other.
What comments are worse on what forum?
Christ guys, we made a mod. If you don't like it fine. At least quantify it. Objections such as "you should have done this, worked on that etc" are just lame. And now, mud slinging and name calling? I love the irony that if the intensity of the mod criticism was actually directed into, you know, making a mod it'll be done in no time.
And if our guest does have a comment, please call me Komrad Stevroski.
Goes with the image.
8)
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Provide us with proof that Seifer and Shed's actions were at the command of SConrad, and I'll accept that you're correct.
EDIT: Actually, I'll also need proof that SConrad has broken ShS' own rules. After all, to be a dictator, a person must believe that the law does not apply to him.
EDIT 2: Oh, and you'll also need to prove that ShS staff never do anything which SConrad disapproves of. A person can't be a dictator if his minions are getting up to things he doesn't want them to. This will need to be extremely strong proof, since there's already plenty of proof that ShS staff *have* done things SCronad disapproves of (myself included).
Prove ptherwise. Actions speak louder than words.
Oh yes another thing. You really should regain your compulsure, it's starting to slip. Come to think of it, so is your grip on reality. :D
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In the civilized world, we have this little thing called "innocent until proven guility". Given your apparent hatred of totalitarian regimes, logic suggests you should believe in this concept quite strongly. You made an accusation, so I'm afraid the requirement of proof is therefore your burden, not mine.
EDIT: Incidentally, is it just me or are there a suspiciously large number of "guests" posting in this thread? Not that *I'm* making any accusations or anything...
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All my postings have been as Ding0. (I have to type it in explicitly each time which is hugely annoying.) The network here doesn't like cookies.
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EDIT: Incidentally, is it just me or are there a suspiciously large number of "guests" posting in this thread? Not that *I'm* making any accusations or anything...
Of course, we wouldn't dream of *you* making accusations. :)
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If a mod's released to the public, I'd say "people dislike it" is a pretty compelling reason for the author to reconsider his or her stance on it. (This is where you try the "you should mod for your own satisfaction" argument again, but consider once more my earlier assertion that joke mods are clearly intended to provke a response from the player.)
If the mod were entirely created for the benefit of other people, it would need to be definitively established that the majority of players don't want this kind of mod, but I've yet to see any evidence of this... though I'm entirely open to being proved wrong. If the mod were created with other people being only of secondary concern, even a handful of other people liking it would still be a bonus.
Even setting that aside, "lack of staying power" is clearly a proposed characteristic of the type of mod rather than my personal opinion on anything particular.
Err, that was kind of my point :). It's an objective fact (based on past occurences) that a non- or semi-interactive joke mod is going to have less replay value than an interactive serious mod, and I'd suspect that the mod's authors have already recognized and accepted this fact; having it pointed out to them by a third party seems somewhat superflous, especially *after* the mod has been released. If someone really feels that a mod's authors don't recognize that people will only ever use their creation once and then delete it forever, and that this is an important issue, wouldn't it be better to point it out to the authors as early as possible, rather than after their mod has already been completed?
And similarly, if I make a post that you feel is useless, it seems resaonable to assume that I either feel it is useful, or I don't mind if it's not. I'll play my "same difference" card again to this one. Really, you're going to have to back down on one of these issues. :)
Not quite the same. After all, while many people mod for themselves, I'm not sure there are too many people who write posts purely for their own personal benefit, especially not ones which attempt to influence other peoples' opinions. If I create something with other people in mind, I'm going to more influenced by those peoples' opinions than I would for something I make mainly for myself, so I'm going to be more receptive to comments on my posting habits than comments on my modding habits.
If you initially believe your post's audience is open to having their opinion regarding something changed (i.e. that SConrad, Shed and co. can be persuaded that joke mods are a waste of their time), but you're later persuaded that your audience are not going to change their opinion in the matter, I'd hope you would re-evaluate the usefulness of your post. And I'm guessing you do care whether your attempts to persuade other people to revise their opinions are successful or not, else I can't see there being much point in your doing so :).
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Maybe TheWizard will offer to host it?
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Maybe TheWizard will offer to host it?
The Jerry Zinger Show is already on TW's sites. Or are you referring to the "Hip Hop Mod", that well known not-worthless, not-awful (bad, imo, but you don't see me complaining) joke mod?
What isn't obvious is why - if SConrad's and my time is so important to Ding0 - he didn't forewarn us of the terrible consequences* that would befall us from making the mod. It was started quite some time ago, but we get this whining only when it's released. Also I wonder why, now the 'damage' is done, he seeks to waste more of his own and my time by bothering me here and elsewhere about my business, namely what I do, when I do it and who for whose benefit. Whatever his motives, there seems to be no suggestion that they are sincere.
By the way, is anyone counting what percentage of the day's posts discuss a mod made elsewhere? I also find it amusing.
Shouldn't personal insults be at least noticed by a moderator around here? Is it ok to call respectable modders "idiots, tyrants, henchmen, high, insane, fascists" and God only knows what else?
*One released mod.
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Shouldn't personal insults be at least noticed by a moderator around here? Is it ok to call respectable modders "idiots, tyrants, henchmen, high, insane, fascists" and God only knows what else?
*One released mod.
Who said they are respectable? That you and they are not. Go back to that hole you call SHS.
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I forgot! You want that dictorual action taken here. Sucks when you don't have the power to edit/delete others posts. :D
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And here I was all happy that things had been resolved in Bons' post (http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/topic,20574.msg267491.html#msg267491).
People have voiced their opinion against the mod. That's allowed.
People have voiced their opinions that voicing negative opinions shouldn't be allowed. Well, I guess that's allowed, too.
People have voiced their opinion that voicing an opinion against voicing an opinion is opinionated hypocrisy. That's confusing, but... allowed.
People... my god, you're making fools of yourselves. I'm enjoying it immensely. Carry on.
Now, as for my contribution to the foolishness, I would ask NiGHTMARE to definitively post his opinion on whether negative criticism is an acceptable thing to do or not, without any mincing, dancing, prancing, gallivanting, semanticising, or other shenanigans.
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:D Feel the love. :D
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You. You ruined the last one, so don't go crazy in this one, please.
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You. You ruined the last one, so don't go crazy in this one, please.
Who me? Certainly not I. :D
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For anyone who remembers what the topic was all about, you can find out more about the Jerry Zinger Show here (http://www.spellholdstudios.net/mods/jz). Thanks for the publicity, guys ;).
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Cheers! :D
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For anyone who remembers what the topic was all about, you can find out more about the Jerry Zinger Show here (http://www.spellholdstudios.net/mods/jz). Thanks for the publicity, guys ;).
I've been checking in every few minutes to see what new entertainment this thread would bring...kinda like the Jerry Springer, er...Zinger show. ::) Normally I would get involved, but sometimes it's just fun to watch people beating each other with wet noodles. I'll agree with Ghrey - by all means carry on. Maybe someone will reveal that they're sleeping with a moderator from the other modding community or something. I think this really is good publicity for the mod in question.
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Studios doesn't have any hot chicks that I'm aware of.
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By the way, is anyone counting what percentage of the day's posts discuss a mod made elsewhere? I also find it amusing.
Shouldn't personal insults be at least noticed by a moderator around here? Is it ok to call respectable modders "idiots, tyrants, henchmen, high, insane, fascists" and God only knows what else?
Well. Seeing as how the free, unfiltered discussion of this mod isn't permitted at Studios, I guess I can't say I'm too surprised to see it getting more airtime here.
And, if it makes you feel better: yes, I noticed. Are you implying that you prefer it when disreputable modders are insulted?
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Being italian I come with a latin motto:
"De gustibus non disputandum est" which means each personal taste has a reason for existing and we shouldn't really feel the need to understand them. Instead sometimes we try and reason in order to let something fit in our logic. But it's not always possible.
I am on Andyr's side about this. Criticism should always be welcome but a person should also know how to make a constructive critic. Using some politeness would have the Modders receive the criticism with a completely different spirit and would actually prove to be more effective.
SimDing0 is also partly right when he says that one does not need to experience a Mod when its pretty evident what the content might be about but, and here we disagree, I believe that a criticism should come only from those who actaully played the specific Mod because otherwise we should just be speaking in general (which was not really the case here).
Personally I won't play Jerry Zinger because I am a bit too "serious" D&D player and I think space for "humor" in the Baldur's Gate saga should be kept really down and concentrated perhaps in some hilarious but pretty subtle situations but I can't say Jerry Zinger is a bad Mod. I might think it's, as personal taste, a "bad concept" to start with but this is all another thing...
I respect all Modders that work hard and provide us new ways of entertainment. Of course not all Mods (there are so many out there, thanks! :P) can have the same targets in the Community.
Also, it'd feel nice to have some "guest" posts (highly offensive and pretty stupid) removed from the thread as I don't think leaving them is a good publicity for PPG. Just my 2 cents, here...
Technically speaking, Jerry Zinger might be wonderful. Wouldn't this be already a good reason to produce it ? :pirate
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After all, to be a dictator, a person must believe that the law does not apply to him.
Ehm. No. At least not in a proper meaning of a word, a Dictator is given very special priviligies and duties, but the extend of that is governed by law, of course a dictator may feel himself above law as well as a e.g. mayor but in no way is it a prerequirement. :)
PS. Guys what's with the all guest posting?
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All my postings have been as Ding0. (I have to type it in explicitly each time which is hugely annoying.) The network here doesn't like cookies.
Use copy/paste Sim ;D
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By the way, is anyone counting what percentage of the day's posts discuss a mod made elsewhere? I also find it amusing.
Shouldn't personal insults be at least noticed by a moderator around here? Is it ok to call respectable modders "idiots, tyrants, henchmen, high, insane, fascists" and God only knows what else?
Well. Seeing as how the free, unfiltered discussion of this mod isn't permitted at Studios, I guess I can't say I'm too surprised to see it getting more airtime here.
And, if it makes you feel better: yes, I noticed. Are you implying that you prefer it when disreputable modders are insulted?
Mod discussion is fine, slagging it off and calling the creators/hosters "fascists" etc is a different kettle of fish though JC. If your idea of a free and open discsussion on a self confessed bit of fun involves the above then I'd rather keep an eye on it thanks.
And why (ad infinitum) can't we just agree to disagree? We've all said our bit, had some fair commentary, the typical guest bitching and so forth. Although the dictator analogy is entertaining I can't see any justification for turning a simple mod announcement into an ideological battleground which (to my view) is only reinforced by the "I think you should have done this... and your forum moderation sucks..." ethos.
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Now, as for my contribution to the foolishness, I would ask NiGHTMARE to definitively post his opinion on whether negative criticism is an acceptable thing to do or not, without any mincing, dancing, prancing, gallivanting, semanticising, or other shenanigans.
I already diid, way back on the page two. I also pointed out that criticism and telling other people what to do are two very different things.
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Ehm. No. At least not in a proper meaning of a word, a Dictator is given very special priviligies and duties, but the extend of that is governed by law, of course a dictator may feel himself above law as well as a e.g. mayor but in no way is it a prerequirement. :)
Erm, yes. At least according to the non-compact version of Oxford English dictionary, and if anywhere has the "proper meaning of the word", it's there.
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@Nightmare - I meant the position in Roman state not the modern common misusage. I.e. in modern times you cannot have a position of a Dictator, there's no such thing, only people being called like that. Saying somebody is an ass doesn't make him a female donkey...
PS. Please don't treat this too seriously...
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Contrary to your own little world, you are not that popular of a person.
You'd be surprised. ;)
Sounds like you are either high or quite insane. :D
Oh, I wish it was so (either way, actually). :)
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This topic makes me sick.
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I vowed only to read odd pages of threads that span more than four pages, but this one is a gem for too many reasons to mention.
All I can say is that: More power to bad mods! Bad mods eat up a lot of time of the people involved in the making, good mods EAT YOUR TIME!!
This is your life and it's yadda yadda. ::) :P
@lurker/gamer: Why not try to be at least a little funny while trying to annoy people for the heck of it? Please.
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All I can say is that: More power to bad mods! Bad mods eat up a lot of time of the people involved in the making, good mods EAT YOUR TIME!!
This sentence doesn't make sense to me. Whathuh?
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Time is money.
Good mods eat a lot of time.
Good mods are too expensive :P .
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I meant to say that I spent weeks on good mods and a couple of hours on bad ones. Of course my judgement was only based on hearsay and a couple of hours of playing them. Contrary to popular belief you can judge a book by its cover and this method has yet to fail me.
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Oh, I see. Well in that case I apologise if I've ever made a mod you enjoy. But not really, because that's silly.
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:D
Good mods, for the most part, do take time to make. Throw in procrastination and RL and they seem to take for ever.
:D
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Best thread ever. :D
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I was going to decide not to post in this thread, but because I know that my opinion is *so* valued in the communties, I wanted to say that although a year could be spent doing better things, it isn't up to anyone to decide what any person should be doing with their time. If a modder wants to create a mod where you have the option to have a threesome with Jaheira and a raised Khalid, well then so what? Don't fucking download the mod if you don't want to play it. Modders mod the things they have interest in. It would be completely redundant if you spent your time modding a game that you hated and adding some stupid quests that you would never like.
As countless mothers have said in the past and to this day, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Constructive criticism is [sometimes] appreciated, but it depends how you put it. For ex:
Bad:
O-M-G, ur m0d sux0rs, can u plz die, becuz I alredy h8 u.
Better:
I think alot of the time you spent on this mod could have been used in better activities, but it's entirely up to you what you decide to do with your time even if I disagree with it.
Note: Yeh, alot of this probably was said, but I just *had* to comment on such a stupid flame war.
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@stupid flame war - flame wars are very needed, people use them to vent off the sfrustraction that otherwise might push them to chopping their close ones in little bits, cooking them with garlic and eating while watching football.
@judging books by the cover - where I come from thoughout the 80s and 90s 99% of SF and Fantasy books had random covers. Like some strange geometric (picasso-like) creatures on Tolkien or a naked warrior with a sword on Ursula Le Guin...
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Exactly! ;) You know that you are in for a treat with a carefully neglected, random cover.
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Maybe you could start another thread about book covers? I think we've already given the joke mod multiple pages too much exposure.
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Yeah, but the question about hot girls over at SHS still hasn't been answered... ::)
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Check my sig for details on the hot chicks.
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Well, one good thing came out of all this. I got my hip-hop mod.
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Check my sig for details on the hot chicks.
The only thing found there are ugly skank hos.
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Check my sig for details on the hot chicks.
The only thing found there are ugly skank hos.
You do of course realize that you are insulting many, many ppg members when you say that. It could be argued that you insult women in general w/such a remark. However, it is unlikely that the fairer sex would take any notice of something so insignificant as you. ;) I only notice, because I am, at the moment, exceptionally bored.
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To echo Regullus, as well as address the suggestion that some posts in this thread should be edited or removed because of their content:
I continue to have faith in the ability of the people who read and visit these forums to recognize and judge the merit of the arguments that they find here for themselves. I trust you all are fully capable of recognizing who is expressing an earnest opinion, and who is utilizing all the intelligence, wit and charm of my cats' litterbox. I heartily endorse your right as a visitor here to interpret others as a crusader, dreamer, indifferent spectator, insignificant asshole, snob, stalker, pointless pointmaker, outraged citizen, voice of reason or Canadian by their own words, not by my post-edited assurances. The Naughty Room should be reserved for the death threats, Hitler decoupage and (just in case Loriel is on the right track) whomever confesses to sleeping with Seifer in drag.
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The women here might be more inclined to give Dahos a smacking if he clearly wasn't so afraid of that happening, hence posting as a guest troller. Some people just don't have the courage of their convictions.
Please don't take anything out of this wonderful thread. I am extremely upset it has taken me this long to notice it. I hope jc will archive it so we can all enjoy it years later, because it's a gem. I was feeling quite depressed before I found it - and now I am completely cheered up. The JZ thread over at EpicXtreme is nowhere near as fun as this.
Ding0 and Borsook get top marks for grace under pressure - remaining logical and expressing their opinions stylishly. Nightmare and Exodus are all out winners for passion, fervour and entertainment value.
I love the modding community. Don't ever change.
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I consider the conflict I carried inside me resolved to my satisfaction. At a price to myself, surely, but it was a price I was willing to pay.
I'll be sure to add a bullet point about Turnabout's power to help players along a journey of personal self-discovery.
I was feeling quite depressed before I found it - and now I am completely cheered up.
Turnabout & JZ have something in common!
- Imrahil
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Like I said before, I find flamewars not without their merit, the only thing that bothers me is the quality of guest posts here. I just hope nobody will try to use it as an argument to disband the guest post system, which usually works great and is beneficial to everyone.
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Imrahil, it's this thread under the theme of JZ that has cheered me up. There's something about deeply held beliefs vitriolically discussed that I find uplifting.
I loathe all talk shows and believe that a special place in hell has been reserved for Jerry Springer. JZ will have no impact on my life.
Disbanding the guest post system would be a bad, bad idea. Trolling would be stifled, and we all value free speech too much to allow that.
Just as a completely uncharacteristic off-topic question, exactly how do you spell the plural of "ho"? If it is "hoes", does that change it's meaning to "obsolete farm implement"? This would be more original and entertaining than the traditional word. It obviously isn't the intention of the users of the word to be original and entertaining, but there's nothing to say we cannot set new standards of abuse.
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I have, for whatever reason, pondered the plural of "ho" quite extensively, and "hoes" was the best I could settle on, since anything like "ho's" isn't terribly satisfactory. I think I considered it at a similar point in my life to when I tried to argue that the plural of "penis" was "penii".
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I had to know about the plural form of 'ho', so I went to the definitive source (http://ho.urbanup.com/648379) for enlightenment. Apparently, Sim's right. ::)
EDIT:
Cross-referencing with the other words used to describe 'ho' produced this interesting definition (http://slut.urbanup.com/124150).
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Ya know reading this whol fucking post it looks just like that damned Jerry Springer show.
Feel the love babyy! :D