Pocket Plane Group

BG2 Completed Mods => Quest Pack => Quest BETA => Topic started by: jester on June 12, 2005, 08:49:14 AM

Title: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 12, 2005, 08:49:14 AM
While taking a break from translating, I made a sketch for the rebuilding of Waukeen's Promenade:

I think there could be two stages, the first with construction work still in progress, scaffolding, pots with tar and piles of wood around and a cleaned finsished version with business as usual and a guard in front of the former entrance of CI telling you to piss off or something (until Return to CI is finished at least ;) )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/jester00/waukeenrebuild.jpg is a crop from the mentioned sketch so far.

Comments? Should there be other buildings? Symmetry suggests it to be just another passageway, but that could be changed into a temple for Waukeen or something.

Next step: I finished some of the walls and cleaned up the mess to the left:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/jester00/waukeen-rebuild2.jpg

Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Borsook on June 12, 2005, 09:40:43 AM
I think it's a swell idea, always was bugged by the everlasting ruin. I'd put more than one guard there though, seems natural after what happened there. If you're for small touches how about adding a character talking to that sculptor (forgot the name) in goverment district, you know 2,3 lines just enough to tell the player that his an architect who got a commission to rebuild the promenade. Encounter with him could trigger the first "working" stage. Just an idea.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Bons on June 12, 2005, 01:53:15 PM
I think cleanup is a cool idea. I seem to rememeber there are townspersons who had a home on the spot, too, or a store, or made some kind of comment along those lines. (Or was that the Planar Sphere?) Perhaps there could be some dialogue mediation between the citizen and the PC and some of the government paper pushers regarding whose responsibility it is to pay for rebuilding, not just the city foundations, but the lost residence.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 12, 2005, 02:38:11 PM
I should say that I am open to any suggestions and especially about how to rebuild the missing part of the 'arena'. The relief with the lions is still puzzling me. :(
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Galactygon on June 12, 2005, 02:41:31 PM
I think cleanup is a cool idea. I seem to rememeber there are townspersons who had a home on the spot, too, or a store, or made some kind of comment along those lines. (Or was that the Planar Sphere?)

That was the planar sphere.

-Galactygon
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 13, 2005, 04:12:47 PM
Ok, I might be a bit obsessed with this not really game defining side project, but I added the barred entrance to CI today and some apples and a rug. (JC will know what I mean when I say that I ran out of ideas and had to put in some crates as well. :D )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/jester00/waukeen_CI-entrance.jpg
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 13, 2005, 04:25:21 PM
that's some very nice stuff jester ;)

keep up the good work
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Borsook on June 13, 2005, 04:27:39 PM
Great! Everyone loves apples, you know.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 13, 2005, 04:28:41 PM
i sure do ;)

red stars
o yea
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Ghreyfain on June 13, 2005, 06:36:46 PM
Yeah, I have to say that that's quite spiffy.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 13, 2005, 07:49:51 PM
(JC will know what I mean when I say that I ran out of ideas and had to put in some crates as well. :D )
And here I was thinking the "this area looks empty, what can I add to it ? Oh I know... crates!" phenomenon was restricted to the FPS :P.

Anyway what you've done looks great :).  I only hope actually implenting it won't cause too many compatability issues...
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Qualidor on June 13, 2005, 10:03:29 PM
Simply stunning. :o
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Mr.WaeseL on June 15, 2005, 07:59:37 AM
Yeah, really well done :)
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 15, 2005, 11:28:13 AM
could there also be an option to go back into the dungeon?:P
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Borsook on June 15, 2005, 11:57:43 AM
that's interesting... what actually happens to the dungeon after the prologue? It should probably be taken nad possibly sealed by "police wizards ;)"
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 15, 2005, 12:35:49 PM
Since the blast happens while you are still inside, I would wager that only a small passageway or a staircase was affected by the explosion.

Solution to get back to CI : A) Bribe the guard outside and have a dialogue trigger the transition and start where you left CI
B) Assume that the way between Door and exit point was trivial anyway and just open the door and get in.
C) completely different entry point ( I want to have a complete sewers system, godammit).

I think the game needs much more open and covert bribery. Even at the start I am carrying more gold than most of the guards could ever dream of getting in their lifetime (CWs included).

Apropos Nightmare: Does it change anything, if I replace the crates with barrels? At least I score better than most FPS. I am referring to these links for anybody interested:

 Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! VI
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050603/adams_01.shtml

Rating FPS' by the time it takes to see the first crate
http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html

EDIT:

I know Sim hates reused areas: So bad BlackIsle!!!: Compare the two images of desolate houses.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/jester00/WP_house.jpg (I just deleted the spire in the back)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/jester00/house_bridge.jpg (teh very same house)  ::)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/jester00/Myhouse.jpg
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 15, 2005, 05:14:24 PM
goddamit man that's some very nice work indeed!:)


maybe a nice trick to do

try some IWD background but the same house with snow on it or something?

maybe even make a new town to the north where is snow could be nice i think
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 15, 2005, 05:57:46 PM
The closest town north of Athkatla is in BG1 (i.e. Nashkel) :).
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Mr.WaeseL on June 16, 2005, 05:26:38 AM
There are mountains between Nashkel and Athkatla, however. (and in the lowest areas on the map in BG it snows sometimes, so it's getting colder) Maybe a mountain village could be snow-covered?

Erm, anyway...keep up the good work Jester! :)
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 16, 2005, 05:43:51 AM
Yup, but not in the middle of town. So I guess I just stick with the look of the neighbourhood for the time being.

A village in the Cloudpeak Mountains could provide an interesting area for Lands of Intrigue perhaps. A border town full of trade, smugglers, custom officials and random wayward travellers who test the grey edges of Amnish society.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 16, 2005, 05:45:01 AM
o yea a town where there are still flaming fist to kill wander around :P
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 16, 2005, 08:46:08 AM
Sorry, I didn't realize "town" could mean "village" :P.  There is a Cloudpeaks village I considered for LoI, St. Carwell's Vale, though it's an extremely peaceful place run by a priest of Eldath and a priestess of Ilmater :).  Another place I thought about is more like Jester's idea: Orlsfall, a long abandoned mining town on the northeastern edge of the Cloudpeaks, now inhabited by bandits.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Aristothenes on June 16, 2005, 01:49:01 PM
Uh, actually Waukeen's Promenade is much bigger than the game suggests.
And the maps are all wrong.
But I guess you already knew that.
Good luck with the mod.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 16, 2005, 03:33:55 PM
well the whole game is wrong....so what is your point being?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 16, 2005, 03:58:35 PM
I do not harbour good feelings when it comes to the clergy of Eldath! Remember the Dragon's eye! Both villages sound promising. I should peek into the LoI sections more often.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 16, 2005, 04:29:37 PM
would be nice if you could create a town :)with snow and such, your quite good at it and i really wouldn't mind some more towns/city's on the faerun map. I always found it a bit few with a big map and not much towns on it
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 16, 2005, 04:51:55 PM
Cliffette's mod idea to put the feeling of a rich backdrop into the game is something I find very appealing. A couple of villages without much to do would be nice, but it still would take mod people to put them into context. Imagine Umar Hills without any quests. An Inn, a barber shop, a store and couple of farmhouses.

I have to read up on various aspects of creating entire maps before embarking on such a journey. ;)
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 16, 2005, 05:24:03 PM
i'm sure you would be able to do it ;)

but your right the map isn't everything

just check maps like the small teeth and such not very appealing
so jester for the maps
cliffette for the context?:P
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 16, 2005, 06:09:43 PM
I do not harbour good feelings when it comes to the clergy of Eldath! Remember the Dragon's eye! Both villages sound promising. I should peek into the LoI sections more often.
Unfortunately, both these villages are simply places I considered when looking at pnp for ideas, and not definite in-game locations... though that's not to say LoI won't be without new villages (in fact, see below) :).

Quote
Cliffette's mod idea to put the feeling of a rich backdrop into the game is something I find very appealing. A couple of villages without much to do would be nice, but it still would take mod people to put them into context. Imagine Umar Hills without any quests. An Inn, a barber shop, a store and couple of farmhouses.
Someone willing to create the graphics for a couple of villages is just what LoI needs right now! :D One of them is entirely made up, so could easily be relocated in or near the Cloudpeaks if needs be.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SimDing0 on June 22, 2005, 01:52:29 PM
Okay, yeh, this rebuilding looks really cool, and I certainly feel obliged to do something with it now. :) Do you have a full-sized BMP version the I can take a look at?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Rabain on June 23, 2005, 02:26:55 PM
Rebuilding Waukeen's was something I had considered from time to time but you have done it so well now there is no need to consider that any longer!  :)

About the crates though, I'd be for getting rid of them and just widening those steps slightly and have nothing between the steps and the stall.  At the moment they make the steps look squashed.

Overall = excellent work!
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 23, 2005, 02:54:30 PM
your forgetting that there iscoming an entrance somewhere there? ain't there jester ^^

The revival of the Irenicus Dungeon xD
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SimDing0 on June 23, 2005, 02:57:23 PM
I'm not terribly excited by the idea of Irencius' dungeon opening onto the promenade. I've always been more of the opinion that there was a big explosion and that was where the hole happened to lead, rather than that it was originally constructed that way.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 23, 2005, 03:00:26 PM
I agree with the Ding0 :).

Put a stall in there.  Then there could be quest revolving around a big fight between merchants vying for the space, since Waukeen's Promenade is hot property.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SimDing0 on June 23, 2005, 03:04:37 PM
Yes, I'm positive that from now on chapter 6 will be absolutely packed with trade disputes.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 23, 2005, 03:14:15 PM
would amighty sorceror hide himself under a stall?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 23, 2005, 03:25:45 PM
Judging by the size of his dungeon, the might sorcerer in question hid himself under the entire Waukeen's Promenade.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 23, 2005, 04:31:45 PM
nah that can't be true :)

i think there are two different planes there

because you travel from one portal to another

and this may be or may not be under waukeen
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 23, 2005, 04:47:15 PM
I'm not terribly excited by the idea of Irencius' dungeon opening onto the promenade. I've always been more of the opinion that there was a big explosion and that was where the hole happened to lead, rather than that it was originally constructed that way.
I conteplated:
- a trapdoor directly from under the passageway.
- a simple stall which is just a decoy (probably as a moving bam like the chaise longue in Lothar's in PST). After you found out about it you could investigate further and find the entrance
- a sewers entrance (with a map which has yet to be made)
- no visible entrance and a guard which leads you in via dialogue

Note: The door is not (as previously claimed in a picture for illustration purposes) necessarily the entrance to Jon's lair, but there for symmetry reasons. As for now it is a closed door only.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SimDing0 on June 23, 2005, 04:49:12 PM
I don't believe re-entry to Irenicus dungeon should come via the Promenade at all, personally. Six outlined a good proposal involving the sewers and genies in another thread, and I'll probably adopt that at some point. The reconstruction of the promenade, I'd like to keep largely separate from the return to the dungeon.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 23, 2005, 05:20:52 PM
Agreed as it may have been just coincidence that the blast opened up a way to escape in that area.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Arturcic on June 24, 2005, 02:28:09 AM
Concerning the genies: what if, as a REAL reward for capturing the raksasa for the genies in Trademeet (just stopping the blocade isn't enough for me), these could hint you to the entrance to CI. Perhaps the genie in the flask is a "relative" and they thank u for freeing him. There aren't that many genies in the game.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 24, 2005, 05:54:51 AM
The Trademeet genies are Dao, whereas both those in Irenicus' dungeon are Djinni.  They're actually different species, the former coming from the elemental plane of earth, and the latter from the elemental plane of air :).

EDIT: grammar
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Thorium Dragon on June 24, 2005, 08:32:40 AM
It's always great to look at the game and think "Wouldn't it be great if this were possible?" then to look at the forums and see that someone is already working on it.

That's certainly how I felt about the eternal rubble in Waukeen's Promenade.  Even if you don't do anything dramatic with the rebuilt area, it would still be fantastic to have in the game.

As far as returning to the dungeon, it's an interesting prospect.  I always assumed that the end of the escape tunnel lead to a portal that took you to the promenade.

In any event, keep up the good work Jester!
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Arturcic on June 25, 2005, 06:35:30 AM
The Daos/Djinnis thing was just an idea. Perhaps the driads can hint u to CI after finishing the acorns' quest.
One question: how did the Shadow thiefs enter CI? Mr. Linvail sure knows how to get back, but he just doesn't care, being it empty/no longer useful for him.
AND, if u happen to side with Bodhi, she SURE can tell u how to reenter CI. I'm pretty positive she doesn't care a bit if u get back and destroy everything.
The point is: u have (as a modder) tons of possible ways for <CHARNAME> finding a way back.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Rabain on June 25, 2005, 07:38:21 AM
IIRC isn't the last stretch of CI a sewer? Where you fight those shadow thieves who are invisible? and then you go down some steps, across some wooden planking...that is definately a sewer!

This in my opinion would tie in with the collapse of Waukeens, if the sewer system caved in, in that area it would cause collapse of foundations and walls etc...no?

I have cut out that part of CI if anyone wants to have a look at it: HERE (http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/~rabain/images/AR0603.jpg)... definately sewer!
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 25, 2005, 10:32:10 AM
re entrance to Irencus dungeon to retrieve khalid's body xD
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 25, 2005, 04:35:43 PM
Khalid's body has been dissected beyond resurrection when you see him the first time, he's obviously going to be too far gone by the time you get back. Any Return to Ilyich mod would have to make a small change to the map, putting a skeleton on that table in place of the body.
Although I do find it odd that when Jaheira says her piece about it, you don't even have the conversation option to suggest taking the body with you, in order to give Khalid a proper burial.


Originally posted by NiGHTMARE:
Quote
The Trademeet genies are Dao, whereas both those in Irenicus' dungeon are Djinni.  They're actually different species.
Hm. Khan Zahraa actually describes himself as a "Dao Djinn," and while he does mention some degree of separation between his own group and other Djinni, I didn't get the impression that he was of an entirely different species. I could be wrong, though, it's been a while.


I actually wouldn't mind a Promenade entrance to Chateau Irenicus--what better place to hide the comings and goings of a few people than in a bustling marketplace? It abviously wouldn't be a simple door, though--there has to be a respectable "front." It might be something in the nature of a 2-story tavern or inn, where only those VIP guests, who have passes, are allowed entrance to the back rooms. Sure, it might be just a coincidence that the Promenade was where the explosion happened to blast a hole, but if there were no exit nearby, then Irenicus vs. Shadow Thieves would have had no reason to be there and cause the explosion in the first place.


Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade, Topic 2: You call THIS a circus? Two roulette tables, a handicapped Avariel, and the lingering aroma of dead gnome? What a cornucopia of thrills, gaiety, and excitement.  :-\ Oh, and hey, outside we've got a moose, a squirrel, and a snake, and of course the touring exhibits from the Hall of Wonders. Jeez, even the Ophals' dead dragon is more interesting than this stuff.
Suggestion: At some point*, get rid of the circus and replace it with more stalls. Apart from shops selling the obligatory more custom items, there could be a bookseller with every "History of" in the game, a down-on-his-luck Cowled Wizard selling some scrolls that could use some more representation in the game (Spook, Contagion, Protection from Acid, etc), an alchemist who sells potion components (Wyvern heads, Belladonna flowers, the "Root of the Problem" BAM could be some witch hazel, etc), maybe even a simple food store (Lynx Eye Gems for eggs, Frost Giant Potions for milk, and of course Dog Meat). Aerie can be dealt with quite easily by pawning her off on either Lady Yuth or Alateo de Bonito, either of whom would make a decent tutor in both wizardy and how to make a living in Athkatla.
*This point could either be 1 week after completing the Circus quest, the start of Chapter 6, or contingent on some other quest (which would be a whole other mod, so I won't go into it here). If this map change does not take place at the same time as the "repairing the damage" map change, that could be very tricky--but then again, ToB shows us that the different areas of the Pocket Plane can change independently of one another, so it seems that is an option here as well.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Galactygon on June 25, 2005, 05:44:35 PM
I am more of a fan of having the dungeon entrance in a remote location of the sewers. From thereon, you could have a maze leading to the south side of the dungeon sewers, that are flooded with sewer water (perhaps the battle created a hole somewhere to a sewer pipe?). To return to Chateu Irenicus, you will have to plug the hole (if you can find it), and drain the maze (or hire a mage to cast "Transmute Water to Dust" multple times).

Irenicus reminds me of paranoid Halaster the archmage who hid himself within a series of twisted passageways under Waterdeep.

-Galactygon
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 25, 2005, 09:12:08 PM
Hm. Khan Zahraa actually describes himself as a "Dao Djinn," and while he does mention some degree of separation between his own group and other Djinni, I didn't get the impression that he was of an entirely different species. I could be wrong, though, it's been a while.
That's probably just Yet Another Bioware Mistake (TM), unless they intented for these guys to be halfbreeds or something :).  There are five types of genie in D&D:

Djinni (air)
Dao (earth
Efreeti (fire)
Marid (water)
Jann (a mixture of all four)

Since Bio included several efreeti in BG2, it seems they were at least aware of the different genie types :).  It seems likely the Trademeet genies were intended to be dao, since dao tend to be Neutral Evil (as are the TM genies), and are the only genies who use Khan as a title; the equivelent for djinni (who tend to be CG) is Caliph, efreeti (N) use Sultan, marid (CN) use Padishah, and jann (N with Good tendencies) use Amir.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 26, 2005, 02:28:38 AM
That's probably just Yet Another Bioware Mistake (TM),
Indeed. It seems that the Khan and his followers were written by at least two people: One wrote the Journal entries ("Dealing with the Trademeet Genies") and the combat scripts: Anger a Dao and his first response is a Flesh to Stone (which apparently has no save). The other person made Khan Zahraa call himself a Dao Djinn and gave Taquee the Bottle of Djinni Summoning.

Question: When you cast (Limited) Wish, is the call answered by a Djinni or a genie? Judging by the tradition that it will attempt to pervert your wish into the worst possible interpretation that the wording allows, one would expect its alignment to be Lawful WhateverYouAren't. But this doesn't really mesh too well with the alignments you describe.....hmm.

Okay, back on topic now! :D
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: irenicus on June 26, 2005, 04:36:53 AM
Why did Khalid have to die anyway? i never understood that part
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Idobek on June 26, 2005, 05:54:04 AM
1) BioWare wanted a Jaheira romance.
or
2) They couldn't be bothered to write for Khalid.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 26, 2005, 10:59:42 AM
@Rabain: I think the lower left part already shouts that it wants to lead to another part of the sewers. (Rabain's pic again: http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/~rabain/images/AR0603.jpg) This does not prevent the dungeon1/Illych part to be on the other side of Faerun as they are connected by portals. Question is how the STs got there, but it leaves all sorts of options and my thief charcters always liked the sewers anyway. I would recommend to just duplicate the sewers under the temple district and add different stuff. Being similar is a key elemt to the endless wading through sewers feeling IMO. (See AR701: http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/%7Echevar/Community/Areas/BG2/bg2_dmaps.html)

@Circus tent: Why not simply replace the inside of the tent? AR607 (same link as above) It could be a trade fair and would need much less remodelling. Just get rid of the guard and you could put all sorts of shops inside.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 26, 2005, 11:12:41 AM
The Saradush sewer area (AR5013) looks extremely similar but has a somewhat different layout, so I recommend using that :).
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 26, 2005, 12:21:08 PM
Why not simply replace the inside of the tent? AR607 (same link as above) It could be a trade fair and would need much less remodelling. Just get rid of the guard and you could put all sorts of shops inside.
True, but to me, that feels like a band-aid fix, since it would leave the caged animals and flying machines outside left dangling, completely unexplained.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 26, 2005, 12:30:41 PM
They are not really part of the circus to me or at least not that anybody mentions that IIRC, but for sure I'll be proven wrong within seconds.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Rabain on June 26, 2005, 01:17:41 PM
If somebody really wanted to do this they could just draw a layout of a unique sewer system and I could put it together using exisitng sewer graphics.

I both loved and hated the BG city sewers from BG1, you could feel you were lost down there!
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: irenicus on June 26, 2005, 02:12:06 PM
lazy gits i must say LAZY!!!! more lazy then me, and i dont even go to school for heavens sake.... not that heaven gives a -cars beep and a lorry goes by-  anyway... this looks cool... but i still think it was under waukeens promanade... -looks dumn- ill shut up cus i dont even know what im talking about,... basically, i think its under the big town center, because theres only one portal, that takes you up a level of the dungeon, then on that boring game movie it says

"the tunnel slopes upwards into the welcome glare of daylight" or some crap like that, so its just a tunnel up basically :-S
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 26, 2005, 02:39:44 PM
You do have a point with the sloping part, but still I would agree with Rabain that it might be just the sewers collapsing after the blast which lead you to daylight.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 27, 2005, 02:13:15 AM
They are not really part of the circus to me or at least not that anybody mentions that IIRC, but for sure I'll be proven wrong within seconds.
Well, again, it might be just a coincidence that Fearghus, the animal trainer from the circus, is standing on that odd wooden scaffolding that seems to connect the Snake cage with the Moose/Squirrel one.....


It's quite possible that the only entrance to CI was through the sewers, since there was more than one large explosion. You "hear" the first one as you turn the corner towards the Lightning Mephit Generator, so theoretically, Irenicus could have blasted some Shadow Thieves off his doorstep, accidentally brought down the roof of the sewer system in the process, climbed up out of the rubble to emerge in Waukeen's Promenade, and finally released another major explosion (which sealed the passage that the first one opened), just after the party emerged.
Of course, this scenario would work equally as well if the main entrance to CI was aboveground in the Promenade, not through the sewers at all.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 27, 2005, 03:57:12 AM
They are not really part of the circus to me or at least not that anybody mentions that IIRC, but for sure I'll be proven wrong within seconds.
Well, again, it might be just a coincidence that Fearghus, the animal trainer from the circus, is standing on that odd wooden scaffolding that seems to connect the Snake cage with the Moose/Squirrel one.....

Ok I can see your triumphant smirk from here. ::) Why did I never consider the animals in the cages an integral part?

First everything was always about how Kalah made THE Circus his own private kingdom, when in fact he just used the main tent and left everybody else outside the tent alone. Secondly I have yet to talk to Feargus, but he could reply that he separated from the circus for whatever reason. I am trying to find a fitting solution to the space problem which I can present asap, but I'd rather go with the many tents option than many other mundane stalls which litter the main space.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: cliffette on June 27, 2005, 05:20:58 AM
I'd buy the theory that the trainer farctured from the circus after the horrific doppelganger experience - therefore the four people inside the tent can pack up their two tables and leave, paving the way for whatever you wish to place inside the tent (rabid chickens? A saucy Wild Orcs strip show?). Fearghus can hang around outside wondering how he's going to pack up his animals and transport them to where he wishes them to go, as it's alot for one man to handle.

The flying machines I never associated with the circus. They're just kind of there.

And lovely work on the Promenade, by the way. :)
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 27, 2005, 06:04:44 AM
Thanks, cliffette!

Actually I really liked the women in front of Gaelan's place with her trained chicken number. So it could be either sideshow people or travelling salesmen for me.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on June 27, 2005, 01:20:30 PM
hail to all those lovely chickens then :P
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 27, 2005, 03:42:43 PM
...paving the way for whatever you wish to place inside the tent (rabid chickens? A saucy Wild Orcs strip show?). Fearghus can hang around outside wondering how he's going to pack up his animals and transport them to where he wishes them to go, as it's alot for one man to handle.
Incidentally, the other mod I mentioned was one where you (a PC of any class except Monk or pure Druid) can take ownership of the Copper Coronet and, in one path, fill in the gladitorial pits in the back rooms to make room for....the circus. The circus as it SHOULD have been, with dancing bears, magic shows, knife throwers, songs, etc. Fearghus and his menagerie can easily move into the quarters vacated by the Beastmaster & Co.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 27, 2005, 04:36:27 PM
Interesting. Which mod is this? A link perhaps?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 29, 2005, 04:09:31 AM
Sorry, forgot to mention that any "link" to this mod would only lead into my own somewhat demented imagination. But it does have to do with moving the circus, so it deserved a mention here.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Xaos_Bob on June 30, 2005, 01:52:42 PM
Great idea, and one I've been wondering about for some time, Jester. My suggestions:

Since it isn't the original construction, workmen or architect, the new arch should probably look stylistically different from the rest of the Promenade. Perhaps no lions, or darker stone, or the dome strangely off-tint--something simple (so it's easy) but obvious (so it's visible). To ward off players who would say, "It's amateurish (which, I must add, your work is very much not..XB)! It doesn't even match!" have a couple townsfolk commenting how it doesn't match, and what is the world coming to, and such.

Get rid of the damnable circus. By the time reconstruction begins, the circus should damn well be gone, too (people died, after all). The persisting circus (and the persisting useless exhibits outside) has always irked me.

Though not in the Promenade, how about the tents of the genies outside Trademeet?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on June 30, 2005, 02:48:23 PM


@Circus: I am working on a version that fills the space with something different, but I am hesitant to to put in too many NPCs, because work and lack of ideas and all. This might change in the progress.

@Visible differences:
 I think one of the images shows that the replaced portion of the promenade features lighter stone than the old part and is a visible wedge right of the passageway. The passageway proper is still in experimentation to change it only slightly and make it look new. The architect could either be a bureaucrat or a Prism-like character a little bit out of touch with reality or something. As soon as I am satisfied with the results and finished with more pressing projects I post another image for comments. ;)
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on July 01, 2005, 04:10:11 PM
well if you want to replace the circus you will need to edit some scripts as well

and replace some character related characters

the wingless idiot's uncle:P
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: NiGHTMARE on July 02, 2005, 06:23:54 AM
Remember to take into account the messenger who asks you to go see Quayle, so he can send you off to help Raelis Shai.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 03, 2005, 01:45:43 AM
If there's a mod to move the Circus somewhere else, then Quayle and Aerie will obviously go there with it. But if the Circus is simply removed, (which it very well might be: With total assets of two roulette tables, three animals, and a big tent, Quayle might as well just chuck the whole thing), then they should have someplace else to go.

Raelis Shai does make sense, but that means considering whether or not the party has done the Planar Prison, which is more complicated than this needs to be. (It works as far as Quayle sending an in-party Aerie to come see him at the Five Flagons, but I'm thinking broader-scale here.) Quayle's good with finances, so I say let him get a job helping Ribald while Aeire learns what she can from Lady Yuth.

And then there's the (admittedly remote) possibility that the party puts off doing the Circus quest until Chapter 6, meaning that the change to the Waukeen's map removes that opportunity. In that eventuality, it might be neat to have a few Commoners (e.g., the Harrolds) talk about how great it was that some other adventuring party came and saved the Circus. Continuing on this tangent, Let's say you can actually meet this other party some time down the road: Maybe you fight, maybe you don't. Maybe you convince Aerie to transfer right from their party to yours--if your alignment/conversation responses are closer to Lawful Good than the leader of the other party. I might almost suggest that the leader of the other party be a Bhaalspawn, but that's getting a little too parallel universe-y. But still Quest Pack, though.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Bex on July 03, 2005, 02:26:03 AM
If removing the circus, you'd also have to add a check for it to Keldorn's family quest. If you reunite them, he offers to take them to the circus. A lot of commoners refer to you "saving the circus" too.

And speaking of the Harrolds, has it ever bothered anyone else that Mrs. Harrold comes and goes, and Mr. Harrold does the "and now my wife's missing too" speech when she's not there, but there's no explanation?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on July 03, 2005, 08:51:06 AM
I liked the missed opportunity idea, but the scope of this mod (modpart whatever) is clearly not to write an entire mod around parallel universes, circus wanderings and previously undreamt off sidequests. If that was directed at Sim then go right ahead, since he can do it with ease once he returns.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Galactygon on July 03, 2005, 11:21:52 AM
Quote
Continuing on this tangent, Let's say you can actually meet this other party some time down the road: Maybe you fight, maybe you don't. Maybe you convince Aerie to transfer right from their party to yours--if your alignment/conversation responses are closer to Lawful Good than the leader of the other party.

Convincing Aerie should be based on more than simply alignment. The make up of your party as well as your charisma should affect how she reacts to you (a party of 2 evil characters, and 3 neutral ones, led by a lawful good Bhaalspawn should be less appealing than a party of 3 good characters, 2 neutral ones, led by a true neutral Bhaalspawn)

Quote
I might almost suggest that the leader of the other party be a Bhaalspawn, but that's getting a little too parallel universe-y. But still Quest Pack, though.

There are enough Bhaalspawn in the game already and I (and many other people) are getting tired of them.

-Galactygon
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 03, 2005, 02:24:01 PM
Good call with Keldorn, Bex. But I will say that with Keldorn in the party, you're almost guaranteed to get (and therefore complete) Keldorn's quest within 3 days of recruiting him, and therefore you're hardly likely to be in Chapter 6 when he decides to go to the circus. Still, what if you need to re-recruit him afterwards? (Can this even be done? I've never tried it.) I say it's high time Keldorn and family returned to the Firecam Estate to enjoy some quality time around the dinner table, or playing in the front yard.
[ADD:] In the event that Keldorn is not recruited at all until Chapter 6, that will be because he is needed to replace some other party member who got chunked in Chapters 4-5, and therefore will be kept in the party and never truly reunite with his family at all. Still, we must consider those who do his quest merely for the EXP and/or to see him back with his family, and some of those people might wait until Chapter 6. In that event, they can simply go on a picnic (vanish from the game entirely for 24 hours), reappearing back at home the next day. [/ADD]

I've never understood Mrs. Harrold either: She vanishes at nightfall, leaving her husband to complain bitterly, and then reappears at the crack of dawn, and Mr. Harrold apparently has no memory of being bereft. This is evidently jetsam of some forgotten quest, but as it's the only remaining fragment, it's not even fit for Unfinished Business.


Don't worry, jester, I'm not suggesting that you (or even Sim) write up a huge "What If" mod, I'm just spewing forth ideas; they come pretty much of their own volition, and this is as good a place to scribble them down as any. Happily, the "missed opportunity" part is self-contained: Just find the Commoner dialogs that mention the PC's party saving the circus, and alter them so that it was some other party (with 7 members, so the PC knows it couldn't have been him) that led the heroic rescue. Later on, if anybody wants to tack on an actual encounter with this other adventuring party, the stage is already set.


Galactygon, having Aerie judge willingness to change teams based on party composition is a good idea, but hardly applicable: You can't tell what anyone's alignment is until after they join the party, and the purists say not even then: You have to talk with them, get to know them, and base your opinion on that. So Aerie should only be able to consider the Charisma and conversation responses of whoever does the talking, and also whether you have a Drow in the party.

Did you ever see the end movie of BG1? There are literally thousands of Bhaalspawn in the Realms. I agree that there's no need to have this hypothetical party led by one, but not that there are too many of them in the game already. An encounter with one could even avoid the "Oh, not another Bhaalspawn" factor simply by being discreet about it: No mention of divine heritage or the word Bhaalspawn at all, but in the event of combat, they might use one or more of the Ascension abilities (such as Hand of Murder) and that would be it.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: DrattedTin on July 06, 2005, 08:28:04 PM
You can't tell what anyone's alignment is until after they join the party, and the purists say not even then: You have to talk with them, get to know them, and base your opinion on that. So Aerie should only be able to consider the Charisma and conversation responses of whoever does the talking, and also whether you have a Drow in the party.

Huh? What about Detect Evil?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: devSin on July 06, 2005, 08:32:01 PM
Quote
I've never understood Mrs. Harrold either: She vanishes at nightfall, leaving her husband to complain bitterly, and then reappears at the crack of dawn, and Mr. Harrold apparently has no memory of being bereft. This is evidently jetsam of some forgotten quest, but as it's the only remaining fragment, it's not even fit for Unfinished Business.
Actually, she just has the day shift, while her husband gets 24 hour duty. They both have dialogue if their significant other is missing or dead (you'll never see hers, since he's always there). BioWare laziness (it should have gone the other direction, as she has better "Where's my husband?!" dialogue).
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 07, 2005, 01:27:37 AM
Huh? What about Detect Evil?
Tell me, how often do you have Aerie memorize and cast Detect Evil?


"Harrold = there all day & Mrs. Harrold = gone at night" is precisely what I meant, devSin. Although good on you for finding out that she has a 'missing spouse' dialogue too. I wonder whether BioWare intended there to be some combat in the Promenade, or whether the Harrolds used to be inside the Circus Tent (perhaps as the "peasants" that have the "sword").
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: DrattedTin on July 07, 2005, 04:43:05 AM
Huh? What about Detect Evil?
Tell me, how often do you have Aerie memorize and cast Detect Evil?


"Harrold = there all day & Mrs. Harrold = gone at night" is precisely what I meant, devSin. Although good on you for finding out that she has a 'missing spouse' dialogue too. I wonder whether BioWare intended there to be some combat in the Promenade, or whether the Harrolds used to be inside the Circus Tent (perhaps as the "peasants" that have the "sword").

I was sort of taking that in the vein of possibility... not...

"Does Aerie have detect evil RIGHT NOW?" but more "Can NPCs ever tell if you are Evil right off the bat?"

Though that could be pretty funny. An IF to check if NPC X has detect evi memorizedl, and if so, they immediately arange for NPC Z's untimely demise.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: devSin on July 07, 2005, 09:55:33 AM
Quote
"Harrold = there all day & Mrs. Harrold = gone at night" is precisely what I meant, devSin. Although good on you for finding out that she has a 'missing spouse' dialogue too.
Yeah, but she doesn't leave for any specific reason. My point was that it's just the actor schedule (she's set to the standard day-only, and he's always visible). My guess is simply that they forgot to check and make sure they match. There isn't anything anywhere in the game resources that suggests they have any other purpose than to bitch about the circus.

Quote
I wonder whether BioWare intended there to be some combat in the Promenade, or whether the Harrolds used to be inside the Circus Tent (perhaps as the "peasants" that have the "sword").
Filenames suggest that the "peasants" were originally supposed to be children. Go, go, killing children!
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 08, 2005, 09:30:43 PM
...."Can NPCs ever tell if you are Evil right off the bat?"
Circumstances suggest that they can't. Let's take the various NPC reactions to (the prospect of recruiting) the three Evil NPCs in the game.

Viconia: Drow, and therefore obviously pretty much guaranteed to be Evil. For Keldorn (and I think Anomen) this alone is reason enough to dislike her. Minsc and Jaheira, even though they had the opportunity to meet her in BGI and thus confirm their suspicions, do not want her to die....although Jaheira is not receptive to being in the same party. So it seems that even a Drow has some kind of rights.

Edwin: Minsc, naturally, objects the strongest, as they were mortal enemies in BGI, and as I recall, Jaheira isn't too keen on him either. But for those NPCs who don't already know that Edwin is a nasty fellow, the only complaints are about working for Thieves and committing murder on their say-so, which means that Evil can't be sensed by gut reactions. (If it could, there'd be no need for Detect Evil at all.)

Korgan: A new face for everybody (although he's practically a reincarnation of Kagain from BGI), so he starts with a clean slate all around. He's as Chaotic Evil as they come, his quest is clearly motivated by greed (lightly frosted with the pursuit of knowledge), and involves violating the sanctity of the tomb. Yet as far as I'm aware, none of the NPCs object to his quest or his person, at least for the first few days. Heck, Nalia takes more flak (from Good and Neutral party members) while joining up than Korgan does.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SimDing0 on July 16, 2005, 12:07:49 PM
Any chance of having a fullsize rebuilt BMP? :)
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on July 16, 2005, 01:52:08 PM
Sure, I'll send it within the next hours erm days.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Eden on February 08, 2006, 10:19:01 PM
It is still someone on this ?

Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on February 09, 2006, 06:08:22 AM
ask Jester :D if so could you send some progress picturess?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Aragorn II on February 10, 2006, 01:27:04 PM
I also would like to know how much progress has been made on this project.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: jester on February 10, 2006, 04:37:12 PM
Sure, I'll send it within the next hours erm days.
erm years

As soon as I get on it again I will trumpet it on the streets. Now where did I put those files.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: icelus on February 10, 2006, 05:48:10 PM
Everyone, point accusingly at Jester.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Da_venom on February 10, 2006, 06:22:48 PM
Points at Jester *bad BAD boy!

would you lose your head if it wasn't attached jester :P :P?

we want too see your great modding skills don't let us wait
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Aragorn II on February 10, 2006, 06:23:43 PM
*points accusingly at Jester*  :P
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Eden on February 10, 2006, 11:44:23 PM
*points accusingly at Jester*

:)

As far ive seen its another thread, but about a hypological rebuild of all Aktatala, not sure of where, if i find it again i'll tell there.

Just in case.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 15, 2006, 03:19:25 PM
Hypothetical rebuild. Something in the range of quite simple & easy (make all of those blank doors, mostly in Waukeen's, actually have rooms inside so all the Commoners have someplace to live), to middle-of-the-road and quite doable (add new doors to all of the buildings in the game that currently only exist for decorative purposes, a large number of which are in the Slums), to ridiculously complex and will-never-happen (completely redo the entire city, so that all the Districts are logically arranged in relation to one another, the Temple District wasn't built right on top of a goddamn lake [and still somehow has a sewer system underneath], the Delryn Estate isn't eight stories tall, all of the Waylay areas are incorporated into some all-new Districts, etc).

A couple of my mod ideas pretty much assume that the middle-of-the-road Expanded Athkatla will someday happen--for instance, one recruitable NPC lives in the orange building right on the other side of the NE exit from the Promenade (there's already a door there), and another lives in the old lighthouse in the Docks.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: Eden on February 18, 2006, 08:54:17 PM
Its exactly what i was waiting for, but it might still be a lot of work isnt it ?
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 21, 2006, 06:15:32 PM
...it might still be a lot of work isnt it ?
I've never edited map areas myself, so I could be completely wrong on this, but from what I've heard, simply adding doors and similar transitions from one area to another are pretty easy. You just find an existing door that looks pretty much what you want the new door to look like (same size & shape, angle to the viewer, etc.), copy that image, and slap it where you want the door to be. Then you edit the "trigger layer" of the map, so that when you mouse-over that spot, the pointer changes to the "Door Here" pointer, etc., and you tell the program what area file that door leads to. There's already been at least one mod that does this: it takes the building just north of the Copper Coronet and makes it accessible to the player (it's some kind of Dwarf-themed Inn), although I haven't seen any reviews.

I'm not sure what happens if two different mods edit the same map area. I expect that the newer one will simply overwrite the older.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SimDing0 on February 22, 2006, 02:40:27 AM
Adding a new transition between areas is easy enough. Adding a new opening/closing animation... isn't. You'd have to do some serious graphical work, and even then I've really got no idea how to go about patching it into the area.
Title: Re: Rebuilding Waukeen's Promenade
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 22, 2006, 02:43:38 PM
Adding a new opening/closing animation... isn't.
You mean "what the local area looks like with the door closed" and "what the local area looks like with the door open?" Hm. It sounds rather odd that that should be tricky to pull off, but I'll take your word for it.