Pocket Plane Group

BG1 Completed Mods => The Fields of the Dead => Topic started by: Ghreyfain on May 26, 2005, 10:10:15 PM

Title: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Ghreyfain on May 26, 2005, 10:10:15 PM
Yeah, if I haven't already, and I'm sure I have, once more I'd like to voice my dislike of fighting opponents that do 1d6 + 15 damage instantly.  Safana was at full hit points (20), and was hit for 6, and failed her save.  Normally I'd've had time to swap an antidote over to her, but instead she died.

If there was only one component you'd ever make optional, please make this it.  Imagine how people would complain if there was a Short Sword +15 in the game.  Sure, for the whole PnP experience you need awful poison, but if it's an optional component, those players who want to play PnP can install it.

P.S.  Argh argh argh argh argh argh argh argh argh.  :'(  >:(
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: ElfBane on May 27, 2005, 02:54:34 AM
Ghreyfain,, then you will just LOVE Cloakwood2 (Spider's Bane grid). Gobs of Ettercaps and Spiders that kill instantly, if you fail the save. They also roam around some. They respawn constantly, so go for the Spider Queen lair as soon as you get there. Once she is dead, the respawns slow, and, last time thru, I had no encounters. I suspect that Wyverns will also have this poison, but I haven't fought any adults yet.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 09:40:51 AM
That terrible, huh? Well, I am not sure what to say. Personally I liked it when playing the mod. Saying it is the same as +15 weapon is a bad comparison, though, in my opinion. But just to make sure; are you aware that antidotes, elixirs of health and the slow poison spell make the character immune to poison?

I do not want to make this optional as I think everything should be according to P&P. It is, after all, the basis of this mod. Poison does not work exactly the way I want it to, though, because some types of poison (not all them) should have onset times, a duration that must expire it takes effect and during which it can be cured. My first attempt at implementing these failed, but it has been more than a year since I tried to do it, and I think I will give it another try.

But, if it turns out that everybody hates the way poison works now (which I think is a lot more fair towards all spellcasters), I guess I will make it optional.  :-\

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Idobek on May 27, 2005, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: Echon
But just to make sure; are you aware that antidotes, elixirs of health and the slow poison spell make the character immune to poison?
Perhaps you should rename those said antidotes "vaccines".
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Salk on May 27, 2005, 11:06:29 AM
I am a big fan of P&P transpositions and that's why I love Fields of the Dead (although I haven't played it yet as I am waiting for playing it with TuTu) but perhaps sometimes it's fair, for game balance, to bring in modifications. The poisons behaviour is not liked by me either and I suppose by the most users since there are people, like me, that can't see a point on playing a game loading continuously from the last saved point (my secret dream is to go through the game without dying...*oh my!*)  :pirate
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 11:22:45 AM
While I haven't experienced the poison first-hand, I'm not a great fan of insta-kill stuff. I think it takes some of the skill and fun away to have your character's fate brought down entirely to a single d20 roll.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Salk on May 27, 2005, 11:27:52 AM
While I agree with SimDing0 in the case of the insta-poison, I must remind him that saving throws often decide on life or death with a single roll of 1D20... ;)
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 11:31:18 AM
Only a few types of poison kill you. The rest inflict a limited amount of damage.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Galactygon on May 27, 2005, 11:37:43 AM
At lower levels, it makes little difference.

-Galactygon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 11:38:27 AM
If I had my way designing a game, there'd probably be no insta-kill stuff at all. :)
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 11:43:30 AM
So you would like to remove Cloudkill, Disintegrate, Deathspell, Finger of Death, Symbol: Death, Power Word: Kill, and Wail of the Banshee?

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Ghreyfain on May 27, 2005, 12:21:05 PM
But just to make sure; are you aware that antidotes, elixirs of health and the slow poison spell make the character immune to poison?

I am aware.  My cleric with Slow Poison had been held at the time (which would've resulted in her dying if the poison was gradual, too, so that's moot), and Minsc had an antidote he could've shared.  Of course, with the way the game unpauses in inventory, it's a test of reflexes to see if you can transfer an item over fast enough to prevent things.  Even with all these methods of preventing poison, I still dislike the component.

You mentioned in the spawn point thread that you changed around the spawns to prevent meta-gaming.  The thing is, the developers gave the player hints the first time they played through the game by littering the area with statues.  I distinctly remember being freaked out when I saw a statue, and running back to town to get the scroll I'd seen at High Hedge, the very first time I played.  That kind of insta-kill type deal would sit well with me.  If there were a few bloated kobold corpses lying around, or some spider webs or something before you run into any spider, that'd give the player a non-meta-game hint that he should prepare for such a battle.  As it is, you need knowledge of what's to come because adapting to it in-game is a trial that just isn't fun.  BG1 isn't about reactions of the player, I feel.  At least not to the extent that they need to reload if they mess up.

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I do not want to make this optional as I think everything should be according to P&P. It is, after all, the basis of this mod.

But then you're alienating all the fans that want to play a good mod (in their opinion), but not necessarily a P&P mod.

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Poison does not work exactly the way I want it to, though, because some types of poison (not all them) should have onset times, a duration that must expire it takes effect and during which it can be cured.

I still tend to disagree with this, but it's a step in the right direction.  Presumably there would be a Poison portrait icon to indicate the character's about to die, right?

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My first attempt at implementing these failed, but it has been more than a year since I tried to do it, and I think I will give it another try.

Just using the Delayed timing mode doesn't work?

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But, if it turns out that everybody hates the way poison works now (which I think is a lot more fair towards all spellcasters), I guess I will make it optional. :-\

I'd consider it worse if ten people downloaded the mod and one uninstalled it because they didn't like the poison, than if nine people had to hit "y" one more time during installation while one typed "n".
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: LoOk on May 27, 2005, 12:22:45 PM
I think the old way the game handled it was better than this. Although your original of offset times is again better than the original game. Good luck with that Echon (not playing the mod now. Guild Wars and summer has started here (swimming!)).
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 12:48:36 PM
So you would like to remove Cloudkill, Disintegrate, Deathspell, Finger of Death, Symbol: Death, Power Word: Kill, and Wail of the Banshee?
The last four and disintegrate, definitely. Cloudkill and Death Spell, I'm not so sure, since I'm kinda undecided on whether I think mages should be able to quickly dispose of vastly less powerful beings/summons.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 01:14:57 PM
I still tend to disagree with this, but it's a step in the right direction.  Presumably there would be a Poison portrait icon to indicate the character's about to die, right?

Of course.

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Just using the Delayed timing mode doesn't work?

No, that was the first thing I tried. The poison opcode does not work with delayed durations at all. When the delayed has passed, it displays the string 'Poison' and then nothing happens. What I did attempt was to do e.g. 15 points of damage for 20 rounds and at the same time make the character immune to poison for the first 19 rounds, thereby having it deal 15 damage only once after a delay. But during testing it occasionally crashed the game. Besides, the method is not exactly perfect.

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I'd consider it worse if ten people downloaded the mod and one uninstalled it because they didn't like the poison, than if nine people had to hit "y" one more time during installation while one typed "n".

Hmmm, maybe you are right. I will consider it.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 01:21:28 PM
The last four and disintegrate, definitely. Cloudkill and Death Spell, I'm not so sure, since I'm kinda undecided on whether I think mages should be able to quickly dispose of vastly less powerful beings/summons.

Is that not the great thing with Coudkill and Death Spell? But the fact that Death Spell kills all summoned creatures is just BioWare's way of avoiding writing AI that actually deals with summoned creatures intelligently.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Ghreyfain on May 27, 2005, 01:32:47 PM
You could try a delayed effect that casts another spell, which is the relevant poison damage.  Plus the portrait icon that lasts as long as the delay.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 01:51:51 PM
How would you make antidotes and slow poison cure the poison during the delay?

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 01:54:48 PM
Give immunity to the secondary spell for a duration? Or does BG1 not have an opcode for that?
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 02:13:07 PM
No, you can only be immune to opcodes or spell levels, not specific spells.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Salk on May 27, 2005, 02:13:42 PM
Oh how much I love to see such great minds working together!!  :) Only good can come out of this...
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 02:14:13 PM
In which case, immunity to the poison opcode would do the job, no?
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 02:19:44 PM
It would, but it would also make the character immune to all other poisons while we wait for the onset time of the first poison to expire. Because if I successfully implemented onset times, antidotes and slow poison would be changed to only cure poison instead of also making the character immune to it like the way it is now.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 02:25:02 PM
But surely from a gameplay perspective that'd be worse, because there are then fewer ways to protect from poison that has an instant effect? (Assuming there's some kind of "protection from poison".)
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on May 27, 2005, 02:46:18 PM
Well, that is true. There would only be one thing which makes you immune to it and that is the scroll of protection from poison. There is also the neutralize poison spell, though, which would probably become more useful. If you do not recall, it neutralises the poison in one poisonous creature.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2005, 02:48:30 PM
I'd just scrap all the damn slow poison/neutralize poison/protect from poison stuff and go with a single antidote thing that protects from and removes any poison effects.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: ElfBane on May 27, 2005, 04:56:26 PM
I'm on the fence about this. Yes it was a shocker at first, and was part of the reason I lost Adjantis, but you just have to improvise,adapt, and overcome. I had to rethink they way I went about combat in these areas. My outlook is a bit skewed though, because I have four characters that can cast Slow Poison, so it makes it easier.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: raptor on September 09, 2005, 07:03:26 PM
Just curious, why not make a "middle way" as a temporarly solution ? make the poison do more damage over a shorter period of time than before. example if vanilla bg had posion that did 15 dmg over 15 rounds, let it do 15 dmg over 5 rounds, 3 dmg a round instead of 1. old antidotes and neutrlise poison still works, but you would still suffer from the poison.

just a sugestion, as usual feel free to disregard.
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Shadowblade on September 13, 2005, 07:52:51 AM
The reason BioWare did it that way might be because those particular spiders (large and huge) don't even HAVE poison type F, Save or Die. They have poison type A, which is 15 hp damage after a 15 minute onset time. I think counting down the -1 hp per minute adds tension and is more realistic, but the all-at-once is a nonsense. -3 hp per round would add even more tension. The way it is now is just annoying.

Ettercaps have a poison similar to type F, but its Death after a 10d4 round onset delay, not instantly. A -1 hp countdown for 15 rounds followed by a 1000 hp WHACK would add even more tension and make the Antidotes, Slow Poison and Netutralise Poison spells have some use.

The Elixir of Life as a "Protection from Poison" potion is an illegal item, isn't, in terms of true 2nd edit AD&D rules?

Unfortunately, the Save or Die approach for the Greater Basilisk breath, Giant Spider, Phase Spider and Wyvern sting is quite correct according to the rules, but I still think a short delayed onset or a -3 hp countdown for 3 rounds followed by death would be fairer, also in p&p, not just FotD.

But then, a Wyvern is basically a humongous, giant bat with a scorpion's tail and a Giant spider is absolutely monstrous in size, like as big as a bus. Given that microscopic amounts of tetrodotoxin, ricin, botulinum toxin, curare, cyanide etc can kill a man in a very short time if administered correctly, the highly complex mixture of necrotising, degradative, nucleolytic, proteolytic and lipolytic enzymes, neurotoxins, muscle, nerve and respiratory inhibitors which make up the average arachnid venom would be quite damaging. Especially if a sting or fang the size of a harpoon pierces your chest and injects two or three pints of this stuff into you. This is what gets into your character when a giant spider bites him. Don't forget that spiders paralyse and digest their prey's innards and turn their insides to soup before sucking the husk dry.

I think a spider the size of a bus could do this to you and me with no problem. Save or Die. Echon's got it right, there.

What I find annoying is that the damn things keep respawning even though we killed Centeol and the Wyvern breeders and the Wyverns. Hello?!?! Ecology?!? Sustainable population limit?!? Over-hunting?!? Gene pool depletion?!? Birth/Death Rate Dis-equilibrium?!?

We even tried to sleep in the Wyvern cave, and one spawned right there every single time for eight attempts until we had to sleep outside due to a lack of spells and hit points. I've sold dozens of those heads. My Druid, Cleric, Necromancer, Diviner, Transmuter, Illusionist/Thief party are about level 7 on average and we're rich beyond our wildest dreams. Those ludicrously over-priced potions and magick items in Chapter 1 are starting to look quite cheap as we approach Chapter 4.

Still, all good fun.


Cheers


~
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on September 13, 2005, 05:29:50 PM
The reason BioWare did it that way might be because those particular spiders (large and huge) don't even HAVE poison type F, Save or Die.

Yes, I know, I have NOT GIVEN them type F poison. Huge spiders deal 15 points of damage instantly, if the save is failed. There are no large spiders in the game.

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Ettercaps have a poison similar to type F, but its Death after a 10d4 round onset delay, not instantly. A -1 hp countdown for 15 rounds followed by a 1000 hp WHACK would add even more tension and make the Antidotes, Slow Poison and Netutralise Poison spells have some use.

You do not need to tell me these things as I already know. Onset times are not in the mod as they did not work. Also, antidotes and the Slow Poison and Neutralize Poison spells *are* useful. They have been altered to take into account the way poison works now. I have said this several times, but nobody seems to notice. Have you had a look at their current descriptions?

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The Elixir of Life as a "Protection from Poison" potion is an illegal item, isn't, in terms of true 2nd edit AD&D rules?

Assuming that you are referring to the Elixir of Health, as there are not Elixirs of Life in the game, no, I do not think so. It already cures poison and I do not think it is farfetched that it also protects against it.

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Unfortunately, the Save or Die approach for the Greater Basilisk breath, Giant Spider, Phase Spider and Wyvern sting is quite correct according to the rules, but I still think a short delayed onset or a -3 hp countdown for 3 rounds followed by death would be fairer, also in p&p, not just FotD.

It is not Echon's House Rules Mod I am making. I do not agree with everything in AD&D 2E but in this mod I try to follow the rules as that is the primary aim.

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But then, a Wyvern is basically a humongous, giant bat with a scorpion's tail and a Giant spider is absolutely monstrous in size, like as big as a bus. Given that microscopic amounts of tetrodotoxin, ricin, botulinum toxin, curare, cyanide etc can kill a man in a very short time if administered correctly, the highly complex mixture of necrotising, degradative, nucleolytic, proteolytic and lipolytic enzymes, neurotoxins, muscle, nerve and respiratory inhibitors which make up the average arachnid venom would be quite damaging. Especially if a sting or fang the size of a harpoon pierces your chest and injects two or three pints of this stuff into you. This is what gets into your character when a giant spider bites him. Don't forget that spiders paralyse and digest their prey's innards and turn their insides to soup before sucking the husk dry.

AD&D is supposed to be funny, not super realistic. If that is the direction in which you want to go, I would like to see any of your characters stand up after being hit by a sword or struck by an arrow.

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What I find annoying is that the damn things keep respawning even though we killed Centeol and the Wyvern breeders and the Wyverns. Hello?!?! Ecology?!? Sustainable population limit?!? Over-hunting?!? Gene pool depletion?!? Birth/Death Rate Dis-equilibrium?!?

We even tried to sleep in the Wyvern cave, and one spawned right there every single time for eight attempts until we had to sleep outside due to a lack of spells and hit points. I've sold dozens of those heads. My Druid, Cleric, Necromancer, Diviner, Transmuter, Illusionist/Thief party are about level 7 on average and we're rich beyond our wildest dreams. Those ludicrously over-priced potions and magick items in Chapter 1 are starting to look quite cheap as we approach Chapter 4.

Spawn points cannot be altered ingame. Either they are there or they are not. Besides, Centeol is hardly the creator of all the spiders.

I have not done much with the random encounters that occur when trying to rest so they remain largely the same as in the original game. Only a few of the exploitable ones have been removed.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Shadowblade on September 14, 2005, 12:22:57 PM
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AD&D is supposed to be funny, not super realistic

I was actually backing you up in that paragraph, Save or Die.

When a spider that big runs at you and you are only 3rd level, you should just RUN AWWAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!


~
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Shadowblade on September 14, 2005, 12:50:28 PM
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Yes, I know, I have NOT GIVEN them type F poison. Huge spiders deal 15 points of damage instantly, if the save is failed.

I didn't say you did, but they have Type A poison, which does 15 hp damage after 15 minutes, not an instant 15 or nothing on a save. As you can't do a delayed onset, you should do a -1 hp per round for 15 rounds countdown, which is what BioWare did in the first place.

You see, I appreciate your mod and you've done a great job on a lot of the rules fixes etc, but I don't see why you changed the delayed onset poisons and then changed the spells and potions so that they could be exploited against poison Type F. Those spells and potions were never any use against Poison Type F unless you dis-envenomed the creature itself. Otherwise they only work on poison already in the body. If you are re-poisoned, there's no protection. If you do anything else, it’s not true 2nd edit AD&D. And, when the Slow Poison duration expires, the poison is still there to kill you if it hasn't been Neutralised. Same if you Raise someone who dies from the poison. Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! Cast Raise Dead, 1 hp, Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! And rest...

Leave Type A as it was, leave the spells and potions as they were and just make Type F poison do it's thing. Save or Die. You shouldn't stand toe-to-toe with a Giant spider, whacking it with a sword anyway. Not with the god-awful random number generator in BG I. You should run away, shoot a missile, fire a spell, run away etc. Haste is always useful. But watch out for those webs.

For Ettercaps, lets say a mean onset time of 25 rounds and let it do 1 hp damage per 3 rounds for 24 rounds and then 1000 hp on the final round.

For Wyverns, Giants Spiders, Greater Basilisk Breath and Phase Spiders, do it just as you have, because that is the 2nd edit (and the First Edition) way.



I ask the following purely because I'm interested.

Wy can you not do a zero damage per round effect in one struct followed by a 1000 hp in the final round?

Do the Greater Basilisk and Phase Spider venoms have the +2 and -2 to Saving throws?

Does the Wraith Spider venom reduce CON by 1 point for 1d4+1 rounds, save each round?




Cheers!

Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Echon on September 14, 2005, 04:19:26 PM
I didn't say you did, but they have Type A poison, which does 15 hp damage after 15 minutes, not an instant 15 or nothing on a save. As you can't do a delayed onset, you should do a -1 hp per round for 15 rounds countdown, which is what BioWare did in the first place.

I do not think so. Since the real thing is not possible, I had to decide on one of the different ways something alternative could be made, and this is what I chose.

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You see, I appreciate your mod and you've done a great job on a lot of the rules fixes etc, but I don't see why you changed the delayed onset poisons and then changed the spells and potions so that they could be exploited against poison Type F. Those spells and potions were never any use against Poison Type F unless you dis-envenomed the creature itself. Otherwise they only work on poison already in the body. If you are re-poisoned, there's no protection. If you do anything else, it’s not true 2nd edit AD&D.

It was either instantanous effects all the way or BioWare method. I wanted the former. Considering the feedback I have gotten so far, I do not think the poison kills you outright should be made any more dangerous. And finally, no matter what I do, it is not going to be completely true to the rules.

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And, when the Slow Poison duration expires, the poison is still there to kill you if it hasn't been Neutralised. Same if you Raise someone who dies from the poison. Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! Cast Raise Dead, 1 hp, Save vs Poison/Paralysis/Death Magick, Fail! Die! And rest...

Engine limitations.

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I ask the following purely because I'm interested.

Wy can you not do a zero damage per round effect in one struct followed by a 1000 hp in the final round?

Because it is not possible. If it was, I would have done it already. The above would require two poison opcodes. The first with no damage would likely work but you cannot delay poison so there would be no 1000 hp damage at the end of it.

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Do the Greater Basilisk and Phase Spider venoms have the +2 and -2 to Saving throws?

Yes.

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Does the Wraith Spider venom reduce CON by 1 point for 1d4+1 rounds, save each round?

It drains Constitution but it does not count as poison as poison is only capable of dealing damage.

-Echon
Title: Re: Once more with the insta-poison thing.
Post by: Shadowblade on September 15, 2005, 11:11:37 AM
Thanks. It's nice that you're open to discussion on ways to improve the mod. I wouldn't want you to think I was banging on at you or being too negative.

But I stil have to say the Ettercap and type A poison is better as a countdown as you have a chance to neutralise it before you die. If you can't have a slow count followed by 1000 hp, why not a rapid count - like, 5 hp per round for 35 rounds would kill most characters. As it is, Ettercaps kill instantly, which they are not meant to do.

But I think that what you've done with the Type F poison is true to the rules, actually.


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