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BG2 Completed Mods => Event Modding: Iron Modder and One-Day NPC => Topic started by: Belanos on April 05, 2005, 08:30:39 PM

Title: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 05, 2005, 08:30:39 PM
I spent most of yesterday installing all of the various mods I've accumulated hoping to play a new game of BG2. I finally had everything ready, my character was created, the game had begun. But thanks to the RickySlime mod, the game started in a way I didn't like at all. So I uninstalled that one, then waited for several more hours while everything else reinstalled and the next day I eagerly created a new character and launched a new game. But Imoen's lines were still messed up, and the golem in the room next to the cages was still a slime. So here I am starting everything from scratch again, including installing the game, and spending yet many more hours reinstalling my mods.

But NO Iron Mods will be included this time. Until there is a rule in the competition that states that mods must add to the game, not alter existing content, my hard drive is off limits to all who participate. Sorry for those of you who are sincerely trying to add something to the Baldur's Gate environment, but what I get out of a mod that was slapped together in a few hours isn't worth all the hassle I've just gone through.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jcompton on April 05, 2005, 08:59:44 PM
Well, okay, your call. We do have READMEs for this sort of thing, and it's generally always a good idea not to install mods without some basic understanding of what they do.

Also, you might want to check the modlist self-help section (http://modlist.pocketplane.net/index.php?ax=list&sub=105&cat_id=105) for some useful pointers on avoiding hours of inconvenience if a mod (un)install doesn't go as expected.

Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 12:50:54 AM
Well, okay, your call. We do have READMEs for this sort of thing, and it's generally always a good idea not to install mods without some basic understanding of what they do.

Also, you might want to check the modlist self-help section (http://modlist.pocketplane.net/index.php?ax=list&sub=105&cat_id=105) for some useful pointers on avoiding hours of inconvenience if a mod (un)install doesn't go as expected.

I had looked at the readme and though it informed me that the action would take place right at the beginning, it was rather vague at informing me that it would drastically alter the game in a way I may not like. As for the self-help section you pointed out, it doesn't tell me how to avoid having to reinstall all the mods after something goes wrong. I followed most of the procedures outlined and went through the WeiDu reinstall process but that wasn't sufficient. It still didn't restore the game the way it was and I still have to go through all 63 of my mods and put them back in. I've ended up wasting hours of my time.

Frankly, it seems to me that it would be in the best interest of the Iron Mod community to have a no alteration rule. Within such a small time frame, you can't possibly test for unforseen consequences like the one I encountered. So for someone who may not like what they see, it has to be easy to remove. It's not just die hard modders checking out what you guys are doing, there are also casual users coming to your, and other community sites, hoping to breath some life into a game they've had for awhile. All it takes is one bad experience and they'll be sworn off mods forever. If the creators hope to get their works used by a wide range of people, the process has to be as painless as possible. Especially for such minor mods that the limited time constraints of the Iron Mod competition allows.

 
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Silk on April 06, 2005, 01:17:42 AM
63 mods!  Where in the Nine Hells did you get 63 mods?

I might point out that due to being relatively technically dumb, I've reinstalled the whole game over 15 times.  It hasn't put me off.  Maybe I have more tolerance for things that go wrong, possibly through my own ineptitude.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Ghreyfain on April 06, 2005, 01:50:41 AM
I suppose it'd be hypocritical of me to scoff at your concerns while I've always felt the ridiculous install procedure of other mods was... uh, ridiculous.  I don't think imposing restrictions on what a mod alters is a good way of going about things, though.  Educating folks on what does what, and what's a good idea and what isn't seems like better idea.  Readmes, installation guides, and so on.  A lot of that's been done already.  If you have something else to add, then go for it.  That's what makes a community effort a community effort.

Or you could just be demanding that we do everything for you, but yeah, no.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Eral on April 06, 2005, 04:46:47 AM
With 63 mods (I'm assuming that's an exaggeration to illustrate your frustration) you are bound to get a conflict somewhere. I don't know that you can expect that makers of mods - who are not employees of a company bringing you a product- to be able to foresee all the possible problems that might occur. When I first downloaded a whole bunch of mods(23), I had to re-install a number of times too, untill I eliminated the troublesome mod. Try loading one at a time. It helps.

It was Tashia. Who is not a PPG mod.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jcompton on April 06, 2005, 07:22:22 AM
63 is not outside the realm of possibility. The modlist has roughly 200 entires for BG2, and each Iron Modder pack is listed just once but contains multiple mods.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Silk on April 06, 2005, 07:24:33 AM
I don't think I've got more than 10.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 06, 2005, 07:45:59 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't believe the Iron Modder entries, generally, are appropriate for somebody to install if they want to play through BG2. By all means, install them to have a play around and find out what they're all about, but I strongly discourage anybody from installing the entries as part of their regular mod roundup. The best of Iron Modder will make it into Quest Pack, which I'd consider a fair gauge of "what's not going to mess up your game". The standalone entries, while typically fairly well built, have no such assurance.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 05:35:56 PM
63 mods!  Where in the Nine Hells did you get 63 mods?

I've been prowling as many of the mod sites as a can find. There's even more than 63 out there, since there were some that I wasn't really interested in.

Quote
I might point out that due to being relatively technically dumb, I've reinstalled the whole game over 15 times.  It hasn't put me off.  Maybe I have more tolerance for things that go wrong, possibly through my own ineptitude.

I've probably reinstalled it about 20 by now, which is why I got frustrated at having to do it all over again. Especially for something minor that was put together in just a few hours.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 05:46:29 PM
I don't think imposing restrictions on what a mod alters is a good way of going about things, though.  Educating folks on what does what, and what's a good idea and what isn't seems like better idea.  Readmes, installation guides, and so on.  A lot of that's been done already.  If you have something else to add, then go for it.  That's what makes a community effort a community effort.

I'm not suggesting placing restrictions on all mods, just the Iron Mods. Most of the major mods have been fully playtested, and all consequences have been more or less checked out. You can't possibly expect the same to apply to something that's been put together in just four hours. By creating something that doesn't alter the default game in any way, you greatly minimize the possibility of something going seriously wrong with someone's game. I have added mods that alter the existing game, but the readme is usually quite clear about doing so, and they usually make the changes in view of improving something that is lacking, not just drastically altering some element. Especially an important one.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 05:57:43 PM
With 63 mods (I'm assuming that's an exaggeration to illustrate your frustration) you are bound to get a conflict somewhere.

No, I'm not exaggerating. I have 63, not including the Iron Mods. And I'm well aware of conflicts arising, I've come across that a number of times now. But in this particular instance there was no conflict at all, in fact it worked quite well. The problem was that I wasn't able to fully uninstall it in order to play the game as it was originally designed, which is what I wanted at that point. I was forced to start everything again from scratch. In fact I'm still working on it, and that was two days ago it happened. For such a minor mod, it wasn't worth all the trouble.


Quote
I don't know that you can expect that makers of mods - who are not employees of a company bringing you a product- to be able to foresee all the possible problems that might occur.

I know that there all sorts of unforseen problems that may arise; even in mods that have been thoroughly playtested bugs pop up. That's why I'm suggesting that something that's only allowed 4 hours should be designed with the idea of impacting the default game as little as possible.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 06:02:25 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't believe the Iron Modder entries, generally, are appropriate for somebody to install if they want to play through BG2. By all means, install them to have a play around and find out what they're all about, but I strongly discourage anybody from installing the entries as part of their regular mod roundup. The best of Iron Modder will make it into Quest Pack, which I'd consider a fair gauge of "what's not going to mess up your game". The standalone entries, while typically fairly well built, have no such assurance.

The fact remains that they are posted for all the world to download and install. With just a simple restriction like I'm suggesting, they can be made to do as little damage as possible. Either that, or stop posting them until they've been completely playtested.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: icelus on April 06, 2005, 06:07:47 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this policy.  I demand that The Darkest Day and Dark Side of the Sword Coast be purged from the internet.

And Windows.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Ghreyfain on April 06, 2005, 06:26:15 PM
Tutu die plz.
[/not entirely constructive comment]

Okay, real content follows:

The standalone entries, while typically fairly well built, have no such assurance.

The fact remains that they are posted for all the world to download and install.

Yes, well, viruses and warez and the like are all freely available, too.  Doesn't mean you should download 'em.

Quote
With just a simple restriction like I'm suggesting, they can be made to do as little damage as possible. Either that, or stop posting them until they've been completely playtested.
That's absolutely not feasible.  You expect any mod that gets a bug reported to be pulled?  You expect any mod that isn't released to the public to have as many squished (or even identified!) bugs as one that's got the entire modding audience "testing" it?

If anything, iron mods get more play-testing than most other mods, since three or four judges play them beforehand.  If an entry doesn't work for the judges, it doesn't get into the download pack, so for what it's worth, all the Iron Mods have been play-tested.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Eral on April 06, 2005, 06:54:43 PM
Belanos, they're mods. Not products you have purchased which have been developed by someone paid to do so. They come with a "caveat emptor" all over them. You do take a risk when you install them. It's really frustrating to have your pute stuffed up, but even big companies can't guarantee you won't have problems with games when you've got  at least 63 possible causes of the problem.

Can anyone load 200 mods without their computer going pop-bang? Time for a poll._____ mods and my computer still works. Or. ___________ is the mod that stuffed my hard-drive. 
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 06, 2005, 06:57:44 PM
The fact remains that they are posted for all the world to download and install. With just a simple restriction like I'm suggesting, they can be made to do as little damage as possible. Either that, or stop posting them until they've been completely playtested.
...or, I can suggest people refrain from downloading them.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Bons on April 06, 2005, 07:12:13 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't believe the Iron Modder entries, generally, are appropriate for somebody to install if they want to play through BG2. By all means, install them to have a play around and find out what they're all about, but I strongly discourage anybody from installing the entries as part of their regular mod roundup. The best of Iron Modder will make it into Quest Pack, which I'd consider a fair gauge of "what's not going to mess up your game". The standalone entries, while typically fairly well built, have no such assurance.

I agree with Sim here. The use of Iron Mods requires some common sense, and I think reading much of any of the competitions' results threads should give the hint that they should be used with caution and played as a lark, to experience what the judges experienced and to see if you agree with the scoring. The problem described in this thread does not sound like a problem with the rules of Iron Modder to me, but, rather, they demonstrate a side effect that often occurs when installing scores of mods at once, then deciding to get rid of one.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jester on April 06, 2005, 07:45:03 PM
I think the fun about iron mod entries is that they are deviate views. If you long for something spicy or of strange colouring, then they are fun, but I would still leave them at the top of my weidu list to quickly purge them after a joyride or two. If QP incorporates the best bits anyway, that should be the safest bet
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 10:32:01 PM
That's absolutely not feasible.  You expect any mod that gets a bug reported to be pulled?  You expect any mod that isn't released to the public to have as many squished (or even identified!) bugs as one that's got the entire modding audience "testing" it?

I'm not talking about a bug here, the mod worked exactly as it was designed. The problem is that it altered the game in a way that made me not want to play it, then I was unable to uninstall all of the components and return the game to it's original state. If the last part would have been the case, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but I had to redo the entire game to get back to the default. If it would have just been an addititon it wouldn't have been a problem getting rid of it, or I could easily have left it alone and simply ignored it. But I didn't have that option, and that's why I have my girdle in a knot.

Quote
If anything, iron mods get more play-testing than most other mods, since three or four judges play them beforehand.  If an entry doesn't work for the judges, it doesn't get into the download pack, so for what it's worth, all the Iron Mods have been play-tested.

Does that also include the ability to safely uninstall it? How thoroughly has that option been tested, and shouldn't that also be a consideration?
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 06, 2005, 10:38:18 PM
The problem described in this thread does not sound like a problem with the rules of Iron Modder to me, but, rather, they demonstrate a side effect that often occurs when installing scores of mods at once, then deciding to get rid of one.

There were no problems with any of the other mods installed, at least not that I know of. The only problem was that I was unable to completely uninstall the mod in question; some bits still remained in effect. And that only became a problem because it had altered the original content in a way I didn't like. If it had been a standalone mod that added to the game without alterations, it wouldn't have been an issue.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Silk on April 06, 2005, 11:31:56 PM
Don't you think you've made your point?  In fact, counting your posts, you've made your point eight times.  I'm sure the entire forum has the message by now.

All right, you don't like the mod.  You don't think it uninstalls correctly. That doesn't mean that others don't like it or had problems uninstalling it.  People do vary, you know.

If you really do have 63 mods, chances are some of them are non-Weidu and I would suspect you have conflicts in your game whether you know it or not.

You said your piece in your first post not, I might add, in a very tactful way.  No, I am not a modder, I wouldn't know how to start putting together a mod.  I am someone who enjoys adding richness to BG2, trying out new mods which usually enchance my gameplay.  I do not get "my girdle in a knot" because something doesn't work the way *I* want it to.  Hell, if I was like that, I would have returned BG2 after the first run through.

Anyone who works on a mod works damn hard, be it the Iron Modders or the mods that take years to produce.  When you come up with your own perfect mod, let us know.  In the meantime, I respectfully suggest you strangle yourself with your "girdle".
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Zyraen on April 07, 2005, 12:03:54 AM
Let's try making a constructive solution to this, without compromising either side.

- All those who are interested in playtesting and refining Iron Mods recommended by the Judges after every Iron Mod, including their author, please raise their hand :)
- All Iron Mod entries whose own authors show NO interest in refining and playtesting are automatically dropped from this playtesting list.
- Until playtested, all the download links show a warning pop up which the user has to accept before downloading :) (ideally, unplaytested IM Mods should not be put up... but if they are that good, according to the judges, I guess so)

Think that is feasible? A 2 or 3 days cleaning up session after every IM competition.

PS : Actually, I think that's already being done ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Ghreyfain on April 07, 2005, 05:50:16 PM
As far as I can tell, I can't tell what the actual problem is.  What changes does Riklaunim's mod make?  Why didn't it uninstall?  What did it leave behind?
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 07, 2005, 05:51:13 PM
I think it's the one that turns everybody in the game into slimes.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Ghreyfain on April 07, 2005, 05:52:26 PM
Probably the type of thing that effects saved games then, yeah?  Did you try starting a new game, Belanos?
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Caedwyr on April 07, 2005, 07:08:04 PM
If thats hitting save games as well and not going away when uninstalled then I can see why someone would see it as something of a virus equivalent of a mod.  With that in mind, it may not be the best mod to distribute by a modding group that generally prides itself on superior quality.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Xiao on April 07, 2005, 07:11:07 PM
If thats hitting save games as well and not going away when uninstalled then I can see why someone would see it as something of a virus equivalent of a mod.  With that in mind, it may not be the best mod to distribute by a modding group that generally prides itself on superior quality.
I was under the impression that it was always a bad idea to uninstall/install a mod and expect an existing game to work perfectly.  For instance, I think various NPC mods (Hubelpot among them, to the best of my recollection) will not have the new NPC available if you try to play an existing save game after installing.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jcompton on April 07, 2005, 08:08:39 PM
If thats hitting save games as well and not going away when uninstalled then I can see why someone would see it as something of a virus equivalent of a mod.

No, what Ghrey is referring to is the fact that if you save a game with a spawned creature in it created by a mod, then uninstall the mod, that creature will still be there.

Quote
With that in mind, it may not be the best mod to distribute by a modding group that generally prides itself on superior quality.

At the advice of my law firm (Ding0, Ding0, and Ding0 LLP) I have amended the Iron Modder page to be less reassuring on the question of Iron Mod stability. That said, the number of "problem" cases is remarkably small and I still think a lot of heartache would be avoided if people read about the mods they intended to install.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 07, 2005, 09:37:52 PM
Don't you think you've made your point?  In fact, counting your posts, you've made your point eight times.  I'm sure the entire forum has the message by now.

I'm only defending my position from people who keep posting and telling me I'm wrong for thinking the way I do.

Quote
If you really do have 63 mods, chances are some of them are non-Weidu and I would suspect you have conflicts in your game whether you know it or not.

No they are all WeiDu, I haven't bothered with ones that weren't. And yes I do have conflicts from time to time, but that's not the issue here. The only conflict was with the default game, something I don't believe should happen with a mod that has had so little time available to it for testing.

Quote
In the meantime, I respectfully suggest you strangle yourself with your "girdle".

I repeat, I'm only defending my position. We're all entitled to our opinions, but I'm not going to roll over and play dead when I feel my views are being attacked from all sides. Frankly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a single person who has agreed with me on this issue.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 07, 2005, 09:42:19 PM
I think it's the one that turns everybody in the game into slimes.

Yes, that's the one. Imoen right from the start gets turned into a slime and so does the Gollem in the West room. Not sure about anything else, I didn't explore to find out. When I tried to uninstall it, Imoen was her old self, but her portrait was still a lime green, her dialogue still had the reference to her being converted, and the Golem was still a slime. I'm not sure what else hadn't been restored since I turned off the game in disgust at that point and uninstalled everything. I'm now still in the process of putting everything back.

And all I wanted to do was play a game.  :'(
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 07, 2005, 09:44:44 PM
Probably the type of thing that effects saved games then, yeah?  Did you try starting a new game, Belanos?

I did start a new game. The only thing I did was export my character then started again. But the default game wasn't fully restored.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 07, 2005, 09:51:00 PM
At the advice of my law firm (Ding0, Ding0, and Ding0 LLP) I have amended the Iron Modder page to be less reassuring on the question of Iron Mod stability. That said, the number of "problem" cases is remarkably small and I still think a lot of heartache would be avoided if people read about the mods they intended to install.

I agree, this is the first time that I've encountered a problem with any of the Iron Mods. And I did read the readme file, but it was rather vague about the changes it was going to make to my game. I certainly wasn't expecting a drastic alteration or I wouldn't have installed it in the first place.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jcompton on April 07, 2005, 09:58:37 PM
Frankly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a single person who has agreed with me on this issue.

Probably because many people have the rip-and-replace-from-backup method of restoring their BG2 game down to a relatively painless science at this point.

Also, in general I'd like to encourage you (and everyone else within earshot) to reply to multiple messages in one sitting in one post. If you scroll down a bit in the composition window you'll see the Topic Summary and the very handy "Insert Quote" feature which automates populating your reply with the text of several messages you might wish to respond to.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 08, 2005, 05:31:56 AM
I repeat, I'm only defending my position. We're all entitled to our opinions, but I'm not going to roll over and play dead when I feel my views are being attacked from all sides. Frankly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a single person who has agreed with me on this issue.
Well, there was the bit that said I don't think Iron Mods should be installed as part of a regular game, and the bit where we changed the homepage so it didn't advise people to "download with confidence", but rather to download with caution. I don't believe anybody's debating that something which turns everyone in the game into slimes isn't terribly impressive coming from the homepage of a mod group priding itself on quality above all else. However, I also don't believe your proposed solution is going about it the right way (and the fact that you won't be installing any more Iron Mods until it's implemented suits me fine actually, since I'm trying to discourage people from it :)).

Assuming we do institute a no changes rule, what would happen?
We stifle creativity. There are many situations under which a change to existing content would not he hugely detrimental.
We also introduce controversy. To spawn any new creature into the game, we have to modify some part of the original material, be it scripting, or an area. And what if my quest wants to involve an existing actor? Am I allowed to change his dialogue? Why is Modder B's entry acceptable but not mine?

I don't see what the problem with saying "be careful" is. It should be evident that the IM mods don't have the same level of QA that we normally provide; I believe the page now implies something to this effect.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Caedwyr on April 08, 2005, 02:09:07 PM
Quote
While some mods are submitted for judging with bugs or mistakes, all mods in the download packs have been corrected to the best of our knowledge. That said, these mods should be considered novelties and there may still be some rough edges. As with any mod, read the documentation and evaluate player commentary before you commit. [b/]


Sounds like a fair warning to me.

One thing that would be nice, is a way to view the readmes prior to downloading.  Some people may not want to waste their bandwidth downloading a mod they may or may not want to install.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Bookwyrme on April 08, 2005, 02:36:45 PM
Quote
While some mods are submitted for judging with bugs or mistakes, all mods in the download packs have been corrected to the best of our knowledge. That said, these mods should be considered novelties and there may still be some rough edges. As with any mod, read the documentation and evaluate player commentary before you commit. [b/]


Sounds like a fair warning to me.

One thing that would be nice, is a way to view the readmes prior to downloading.  Some people may not want to waste their bandwidth downloading a mod they may or may not want to install.

That would be nice--some of us are still on that old-fashioned thing known as "dial-up."  So, though I'll cheerfully wait through the time it takes to download something like Kelsey, casually downloading an unkown mod in order to read the readmeso that I can discover whether or not I want the mod isn't really an option.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Caedwyr on April 08, 2005, 03:06:54 PM
Yeah.  There's definately some big advantages to mod info like this (http://www.gibberlings3.net/g3tweak/) over the current layout on Pocketplane group's webpage.  Its not that the PPG stuff is bad, but that there is some room for improvement and the occasional idea that could do with being stolen.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Belanos on April 08, 2005, 05:43:13 PM
Also, in general I'd like to encourage you (and everyone else within earshot) to reply to multiple messages in one sitting in one post. If you scroll down a bit in the composition window you'll see the Topic Summary and the very handy "Insert Quote" feature which automates populating your reply with the text of several messages you might wish to respond to.

Point taken, I wasn't aware of this feature until now. Not to mention that I tend to reply to posts as I come across them. I'll try to change my habits.

Well, there was the bit that said I don't think Iron Mods should be installed as part of a regular game, and the bit where we changed the homepage so it didn't advise people to "download with confidence", but rather to download with caution. I don't believe anybody's debating that something which turns everyone in the game into slimes isn't terribly impressive coming from the homepage of a mod group priding itself on quality above all else. However, I also don't believe your proposed solution is going about it the right way (and the fact that you won't be installing any more Iron Mods until it's implemented suits me fine actually, since I'm trying to discourage people from it :)).

OK, I stand corrected.

Assuming we do institute a no changes rule, what would happen?
We stifle creativity. There are many situations under which a change to existing content would not he hugely detrimental.
We also introduce controversy. To spawn any new creature into the game, we have to modify some part of the original material, be it scripting, or an area. And what if my quest wants to involve an existing actor? Am I allowed to change his dialogue? Why is Modder B's entry acceptable but not mine?

I don't see how it would stifle creativity. Most of the mods, in fact all but the one in question, have done just what I've proposed and created new content for the game. I think it requires more imagination and creativity to come up with something brand new rather than simply appending existing content. As for making alterations in order to fit a character into the game, I think that's rather inevitable. There has to be some way for a party to interact and that will require some sort of change. But that can easily be kept to a minimum, rather than having to make a major alteration in the default game.

I don't see what the problem with saying "be careful" is. It should be evident that the IM mods don't have the same level of QA that we normally provide; I believe the page now implies something to this effect.

Unfortunately those warnings weren't there when I DLd the mod, and I was lulled into a false sense of security. I won't make that mistake again I assure you.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Ashara on April 11, 2005, 09:42:12 AM
Quote
I think it requires more imagination and creativity to come up with something brand new rather than simply appending existing content.


It has nothing to dfo with Iron Mods safety discussion, but in my opinion it is a much more difficult and artistic task to carefully and seamlessly alter the game, than slap on a few bran-new characters with unrelated or marginally storylines and quests.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Mongoose87 on April 11, 2005, 08:35:51 PM
Also, we wouldn't want to have any Iron Modders done in by the fact that their good idea would require what was judged an alteration to the game.  Not to mention if you get anal-retentive, every mod is an alteration to the existing elements of the game.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Caswallon on April 12, 2005, 06:24:28 AM
One thing that would be nice, is a way to view the readmes prior to downloading.

That would be nice, independently from the Iron Modder packs.
Esp. as self-installing mods usually display the readme *after* installation, which is a bit unfortunate when deciding which options to install...
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: SimDing0™ on April 12, 2005, 07:18:35 AM
While I agree that being able to read the readmes would be a useful feature for the site, I don't believe they'd resolve this particular problem because unlike most mods, the Iron Modder readmes aren't always terribly clear about what the mod does.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Kismet on April 12, 2005, 07:31:02 AM
While I agree that being able to read the readmes would be a useful feature for the site, I don't believe they'd resolve this particular problem because unlike most mods, the Iron Modder readmes aren't always terribly clear about what the mod does.

... and that's Quitch's cue to appear.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jester on April 12, 2005, 07:44:23 AM
OMG a dejavu thread!

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Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: Caedwyr on April 12, 2005, 11:33:24 AM
Actually, I was thinking being able to read the readmes is something that would be good for any mod, not just the IM packs.  Of course a good readme is a must for this to be useful, but I've heard that there are true masters in the craft of readme construction to be found around here.  To be denied access to their works is truly a crime.
Title: Re: Bloody Hell, no more Iron Mods for me!
Post by: jester on April 12, 2005, 11:46:48 AM
I second that idea. Online readmes are state-of-the-art.