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BG2 Completed Mods => Unfinished Business => Topic started by: icelus on May 08, 2004, 11:16:56 AM

Title: Archived Posts - Ranger Kits
Post by: icelus on May 08, 2004, 11:16:56 AM
So far, two ranger kits (Feralan and Justifier) have been mentioned as planned but not implemented (though it looks as if the Feralan kit made it far enough as to be included in kit.ids in place of the Archer kit...).

Anyone know of any other kits that were intended for inclusion, but never made it into the game?
Title: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 08, 2004, 11:20:52 AM
First off, would anyone actually like to see this restored? I've never looked into creating kits, so I'd have to do a bit of homework. I, personally, would not mind having an extra ranger kit available, as it is personally one of my favorite classes overall.

If you would like to see it restored, do you have any ideas about what it would contain?

Here is the information (albeit abridged) from the 2nd Edition Ranger Handbook regarding the Justifier:

Description
Some expeditions are so demanding and some foes so dangerous that they require the attention of a highly trained specialist whose combat skills far exceed those of the typical ranger. Enter the Justifier, a master tactician whose military instincts, fighting versatility, and steely nerves places him in the first rank of elite warriors.

Though the Justifier specializes in neutralizing monsters, his skills qualify him for a wide range of adventures. he may organize guerilla forces and reconnaissance operations to gather information concerning enemy strength and logistics. He may execute strikes against monster lairs, rescue hostages, or eliminate tribal leaders or spell casters. For a determined Justifier, no job is too difficult, no enemy too formidable.

Requirements
Justifiers must have minimum scores of 14 in Strength and Dexterity. They must be human and of lawful good alignment.

Weapon Proficiencies
Bow (any), crossbow (any), dagger, sling, spear, sword (any)

Armor/Equipment
A Justifier has no special armor or equipment requirements. Though most Justifiers prefer light armor, such as leather, they can wear any type of armor and still hide in shadows and move silently.

Special Benefits
Weapon Specialization: Because of his extensive combat training, the Justifier must use some of his initial proficiency slots to take one weapon specialization. The weapon of specialization is taken from the list of recommended weapons.
Stealth: The Justifier receives a +5% bonus to his chance of hiding in natural surroundings and to his chance of moving silently.
Tactical Advantage: This ability allows the Justifier and his companions to gain a combat advantage by studying the enemy and exploiting their weaknesses. The Justifier must spend at least a full, uninterrupted turn secretly observing an enemy or group of enemies prior to making an attack. At the end of this period, the Justifier makes a Wisdom check. If successful, the Justifier has correctly assessed the enemy's weaknesses and is able to maximize the timing of an attack. The Justifier and his party automatically surprise the enemy and gain the initiative for the first round. A Justifier can attempt to gain a tactical advantage only once in a particular encounter.
Unarmed Combat Expertise: When fighting with his bare hands, the Justifier inflicts 1-4 points of damage on a successful attack roll. If the Justifier throws an unmodified 20 on his attack roll, the victim suffers 1-4 points of damage and must also make a saving throw vs. paralyzation. If the throw fails, the victim is stunned for 1-6 rounds.
Coordinated Attack: The Justifier can use this ability, in conjunction with a trained animal follower, to inflict maximum damage on an opponent. The animal follower must have been trained to attack on command. To attempt the coordinated attack, the Justifier and the animal both make a single attack on the same enemy in the same round (even if one or both are normally allowed multiple attacks; the animal will use its most damaging attack). If either roll misses, then that attacker automatically loses initiative in the next round. If both rolls hit, each attack causes twice the normal amount of damage. A coordinated attack involves only one follower. A coordinated attack may be attempted at any time during a combat, but only once against any particular opponent during an encounter.

Special Hindrances
Limited Proficiencies: The Justifier's mastery of weapons and combat comes at the expense of learning other skills. For this reason, he receives only one nonweapon proficiency slot at 1st level (in addition to his Survival bonus). He acquires additional proficiency slots at the normal rate.
Limited Spell Use: Because the Justifier devotes less time to the study of magic than to the military arts, he has less access to spells than other rangers. The Justifier doesn't acquire spells until he reaches 10th level.



Now, I realize that much of this doesn't carry over well to a CPRG environment, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Justifier Kit
Post by: Snowking. on May 08, 2004, 11:23:32 AM
I'm just gonna throw a few ideas around here.

Advantages:
*Bonus to Stealth
*Tactical (Innate ability: based after on in description.)

Disadvantages:
*Can't wear greater than Studded Leather armour.
*Slowed Spell Progression.

Restrictions:
*Must be Human
*Must be of a Lawful Good Alignment.

Stat Min:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 3
Wis: 10
Chr: 3
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Grey Acumen on May 08, 2004, 11:24:49 AM
I really like the idea of being able to stealth in full plate, and could be done I believe by scripting to re-enabling the stealth button. His disadvantages would be large drop in stealth and possibly having THAC0 dropped slightly.

I believe that the tactical advantage should basically be done by using a script to check when the justifier is stealthed, it then checks for an enemy to be in sight, if an enemy is in sight, it waits one round and then sets all allies to something like -25 THAC0 and 0 attack speed factor for 1 round. the likelyhood of success could go up with level, rather than wisdom.

Unarmed combat would work the same way the monk does.

Spell progression is a simple matter of adding a negative spell bonus to start out with. Then positive bonuses are added when needed.
Title: Justifier Kit
Post by: Gospel. on May 08, 2004, 11:25:32 AM
I don't think Sneak Attack uses a Multiplier sort of thing, that's more like backstab? ^_^

So maybe there could actually be a sneaky attack :D They used it in Heart of Winter, I think ^_^

So... maybe... :D

Sneak Attack +1d6 starting at level 1, +1d6 every such and such levels? :D 8 maybe? :D Something ^_^ Uhh... added whenever makes a Critical (But not multiplied with it, rrr?)? :D And added whenever hits from hidings?

Slightly Improved Critical Chancey? :D Not sure how it's calculated in 2nd... and I don't really knows much about how it's like in 3rd either ;_; But uhhh, nothing too dwastic? ^_^

Can gets Mastery in Weapons, woof? :D

Can Sneaky in Medium Armor at Penalty? :) Uhh... if they can Sneak in Medium Armor as it is, umm... :) Umm :) Cats! ^_^

Defensive Harmony 1/Day, for 4 Rounds? :D Special Ability, but likey the spell, with lowered duration ^_^ No stacking with the spell please! :) Paws :D

+5% to Stealth

But Cons ;_;

Uhhh... d8 HP? :D

Terrible at Spellcasting? :D

No Dually-Classing? :D

No extra Dual Wield slotsies? :D

Charm Puppies set to Once Per Day FOREVAR? :'(

No Tracking HLA? :(

No Heavy Armor? ;_;

So... a not-quite-fighter not-quite-thief with Charm Puppies :)

Still, uhhh... feels hard to make a SUPREME COMBAT!!! version of a Ranger, or anything, because it would like, sacrifice utility stuff for combat... but in a CRPG, utility stuff probably isn't so great anyways? :(

Edit: Zow! And the whole Lawful Good thing, the Minimum Stats, that stuff ^_^ Under Restrictions :) Minimum stats is more like a bonus though, yikes? In Baldurey Gate 2
Title: Justifier Kit
Post by: deganawida on May 08, 2004, 11:26:24 AM
The Complete Ranger's Handbook gives a -95% penalty to both Hide in Shadows and Move Silently when wearing Full Plate, -75%/80% for Plate Mail, -30%/-40% for Splint Mail, -10%/-10% for Elven Chain, -30%/-40% for Chain Mail, and -50%/60% for Scale Mail (I think that these are the only armor types in BG1/2/ToB that are implemented other than Leather, Studded Leather, and Hide). The Justifier just gets a +5% increase to those skills, which hardly offsets the penalties. Further, the Justifier must be Human and Lawful Good, and has higher prereqs than most other Ranger kits. Given that the such choices are not exactly popular with most people, and severely (or, at least, should) limits the choices available to a particular player, then I see no real problem. I don't know whether or not it is possible to reduce the spellcasting progression, but if so it would help balance the Justifier further.

As to how to convert the abilities of the Justifier for the game, here are some ideas that I had a while back (BTW, sorry that it took me so long to find this thread; I had previously offered to help with the non-technical side of converting the Justifier, but dropped off the map due to life) along with some new ones:

1. Reinstituting the Brawler skill, and rather than gaining two pips in Two-Weapon Fighting, gain a pip or two in Brawler.
2. Stealth bonus of +5%, plus ability to sneak in all armors with appropriate penalties applied.
3. Weapon Mastery in only ONE weapon type and Brawler.
4. Gospel's idea of limited usages of Defensive Harmony (renamed to Coordinated Attack).
5. Human, LG only, with prime reqs instituted.
6. Reduced spell-casting capability.
7. (Possibly) No ranged weapon proficiency at all or greater than one pip (representing the Justifier's up-close-and-personal style of combat).
8. No TWF (too unbalancing if dual-wielding a weapon with which one has GM in, as it treads on the Fighter's toes too much), nor ability to learn TWF.

I think that this is very balanced, as it allows the Justifier to be different from the other types of Ranger kits available (the sneaky one, the animal one, and the ranged one) and limits the kit in several significant ways so as to keep it from being too powerful. Further, it creates a character type which is not possible to achieve from multi-/dual-classing, which is always a plus.
Title: Justifier Kit
Post by: CamDawg. on May 08, 2004, 11:27:21 AM
A hardcoded problem with stealth abilities is that by allowing Justifiers to use stealth in armor allows all other classes (thieves and rangers) to do it as well. Currently, all armor heavier than studded leather has a "disable stealth button" effect. AFAIK you can not make that effect subject to the kit of the person wearing it. The other alternative is to remove this effect and replace it with the stealth penalties listed above, but then it applies to every character with stealth and the capacity to wear heavier armor. You could probably script a workaround, though.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: jester on May 08, 2004, 11:38:02 AM
I think I already rained on the Justifier's parade during our last discussion over at FWS. I think it does not warrant the hassle to code it.

Sneaking in full plate, roflmao. It just does not sound edgy enough to me. No USP which is the no pubes of the marketing people. :D
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Barren on May 08, 2004, 01:42:43 PM
As I once said, I think the Feralan kit would be fitting enough to be assigned to Minsc. I'd like to see it restored.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: JPS on May 09, 2004, 05:55:38 AM
Isn't the Feralan supposed to be brought up by animals? That doesn't seem entirely appropriate for Minsc, although I suppose a case could be made for Boo. I must admit that "a man brought up by hamsters" doesn't quite have that mythical ring to it, though...
Title: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 09, 2004, 06:00:17 PM
Kit creation is not too hard, I could probably give it a go if you'd like. :)

How about this:

Justifiers must have minimum scores of 14 in Strength and Dexterity. They must be human and of lawful good alignment.

Quote
JUSTIFIER: Some expeditions are so demanding and some foes so dangerous that they require the attention of a highly trained specialist whose combat skills far exceed those of the typical ranger. Enter the Justifier, a master tactician whose military instincts, fighting versatility, and steely nerves places him in the first rank of elite warriors.

Though the Justifier specializes in neutralizing monsters, his skills qualify him for a wide range of adventures. he may organize guerilla forces and reconnaissance operations to gather information concerning enemy strength and logistics. He may execute strikes against monster lairs, rescue hostages, or eliminate tribal leaders or spell casters. For a determined Justifier, no job is too difficult, no enemy too formidable.

Advantages:
- The Justifier receives a +5% bonus to his hide in shadows and move silently skills.
- Due to their proficiency with weapons and assessment of their foes, Justifiers gain +1 speed factor and +1 thac0 per 10 levels.

Disadvantages:
- Because the Justifier devotes less time to the study of magic than to the military arts, he has less access to spells than other rangers. The Justifier doesn't acquire spells until he reaches 10th level.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Rathwellin the Bard on May 10, 2004, 02:21:12 PM
Justifier was probably *the* most fan requested Ranger kit during BGII development.  As I recall Dave told us that he brought it up internally a number of times but that one of the head guys was dead set against even thinking about it.  IMO this kit is not a good fit for UB.

Feralan on the other hand almost made it in ... only to be replaced by the Archer kit at the last second.

Putting the Feralan kit back in would be fine by me ... as would assigning it to Minsc.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: icelus on May 14, 2004, 04:06:19 PM
This is the information on the Feralan Ranger kit:

Quote
Description :     What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered ?  Or worse, children who are abandonned by their families in the wood ?  Sadly, most of the time, they succumb to the dangers of the wild.  But some fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter.  Cut of from the civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with their spirit, and the spirit of the wild.  In the process, they become a feralans, beings who combine the savagery of the beast, the intellect of a man, and the instinct and the sharp senses and reflexes of the predators.    

Requirement :   Cannot be of lawful aligment since they represent the wild.  Only good animals will take and raise children, so they must also be of good aligment.  The feralan must also choose what will be his familial species.

Weapons :   Club, knife, Spear (all), Quarterstaff, dart, Sling, javelin, handaxe, lance (light), Sap, Whip, blowgun, dagger, short bow, and any kind of « primitive weapons » of that sort.  They make themselves those weapon with rock, wood, and on rare occasion, metal.  If they loose one, or break one, in a few hours, they can make a new.  He must start with the weapon in the list.  But he can also use any weapon a standart ranger use, still, he prefer not to.  When using any non « favored » weapons, he suffer –2 to all attack roll.

Armors :   Feralan wear no armor at all, but leather sometimes.  They wear only what is usefull to them, to keep them warm, and confortable.

Special Benefits :

1- +2 bonus on animal empathy, +4 with familial species. 
2- +2 bonus on craft (leather working, weapon smitting)
3- +2 bonus on Handle animal, +4 with familial species.
4- +4 bonus in hide, +4 bonus in move silently.
5- +4 bonus in wilderness Lore.
6- A feralan begin with the climb skill at rank 5.
7- A feralan gain specials abilities depending on his familial species, like a Sorceror would gain special ability depending on his familiar.  See Page 50-51 in the players handbook.
See page 51 table 3-18 for examples.  The exception are that the Feralan does not have to be under a certain distance.  Regardles of the distance with any of his familial species, he retain that special gift.
8- Speak with animals :  The feralan can use this special ability any time he wishes, but it only work with his familial species.
9- Familial rapport :  Even an untrained animal, will do what the ferelan ask, provided he is physically capable of doing so, on command of the feralan.  This work only with his familial species.  Any bad treatment from the feralan will cause ressentment, and abandonment.
10- Animal training :  The ferelan can train any animals.  It is instinctive, so even if a nordic ferelan find himself in a southern area, he will be able to train elephants with no trouble.
11- Call of the wild :  The feralan may try to summon familial species when he is on their territory.  (He cannot summon camels in the polar circle).  To do so, the Feralan must howl at the top of his lung for 1d6 round.  The Dm then roll 1d%.  The feralan have 1% per level + 1 % per point in wisdom, +1 % per charisma modifier to get an answer to his call.  If the roll is a success, then 1d4 animal from the familial species will show up.  One of them will be a pack leader with 1 more hit dice and full hit points.  They will act like followers for the next 1d4 hours + 1 hours per charisma modifier, or until the needs for them is no more.  This power work only once per day.
12- Feral Rage :  During melee combat, the innitial wounding of an opponent when blood is draw, may impel the feralan into a special Frenzy of blood loss, increasing his fighting abilities.  A feralan may attemp to become enraged at any particular opponent.  After the first round, in wich the feralan inflict damages on an ennemy, the feralan can make a Willpower check DC 15.  If it his a success, than the feralan can tap into his feral instinct for survival.  He awaken the beast inside himself.  This work for the following 2d6 round, regardless of the level of the feralan.  During that time, the feralan cannot use magic, or communicate with anyone.  The feralan gain +4 in Str, +4 in Dex (+2 to AC regardless of the armor).  However, all attacks must be made against the designated opponent and the feralan must attack him in every round he is able; he can`t break an attack, or choose to attack someone else.  He must continue to attack the same ennemy until he die, the rage fade away, or the ennemy escape.  If the ennemy escape, he must pursue.  If the ennemy dies, then the rage fades away.  A feralan cannot try to become enraged two time in a single battle against the same ennemy.  The feralan can use this rage a number of time per day equal to his level + his wisdom modifier.

Special Hindrances :

1- Limited money.  A feralan has no interest in money.  He keeps only what he needs.  He start with 1d3 x10 Gp.
2- Reaction penalty.  When a feralan encounter someone, anyone, even the crudest barbarain half-orc, he will have a penalty of –3 modifier on his charisma roll.
3- Limited armors and weapons.
4- Limited magic.  Because of his animal tendencies and mental predisposition, the feralan may not have the same number of Spells as the other ranger.  He start to cast spells only at level 6.  His spells are : Animal friendship, Detects animals (not plants), Magic fang, Speak with animals, Pass without trace, Resist elements, Summon nature`s Ally 1.  Animal messenger, Cure light wounds, Hold animal, Summon nature`s ally 2, Greater magic fang, Remove disease, Summon nature`s ally 3, Polymorph self, summon nature`s ally 4.  He cast his spells like a caster of half his level –2.
5- Like barbarian, a Feralan need to spend 2 skill point to learn to read/write any language he is able to speak.







Feralan Spells progression.

Table for The Feralan :
Feralan level      Caster level      Ranger spells   Lvl 1   Lvl 2   Lvl 3   Lvl 4
6         1               0   -   -   -
7         1               0   -   -   -
8         2               1   -   -   -
9         2               1   -   -   -   
10         3               1   0   -   -
11         3               1   0   -   -   
12         4               1   1   -   -
13         4               1   1   0   -
14         5               1   1   1   -
15         5               1   1   1   -
16         6               2   1   1   0
17         6               2   1   1   1
18         7               2   2   1   1
18         7               2   2   2   1
20         8 (max)               3   2   2   1
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 14, 2004, 04:11:07 PM
I'm going to see if the speed factor thing will be done, then can probably make it this weekend. :) Since I probably won't do Iron M0ddar.

Will use the default HLA table.

Could probably make the Feralan too, will have a look at the thread in the main room.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 14, 2004, 04:14:04 PM
Thanks, Andyr.  If you're online tomorrow, I'll try to work with you on the kits if I don't get wrapped up in real-life madness (oxymoron?).  :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 15, 2004, 08:44:45 AM
I have coded this, with one small problem.

I was doing spells as being delayed by 3 levels, and worked out the combination of spell slots I need to add and remove, and when. It seemed to work ok, but then I remembered - bonus spells. Playing with a character with a high enough WIS for bonus spells (ie 12 or over, or something) messes up the progression.

So, I was thinking... Perhaps the Justifier should have spells disabled entirely? Or some other casting disadvantage?

The other thing about spells being 3 levels behind is they'll catch up to a kitless Ranger in spell power, just 3 levels later, so by ToB you've effectively got no disadvantages while you have all the Justifier advantages. So perhaps removing spells is a good thing?

Finally, I've left Charm Animal in. You want it in/out? :)
Title: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 15, 2004, 08:49:12 AM
Since the Justifier was quick to code, I started work on the Feralan. The thing is, it needs to be sufficiently different from the Beast Master.

From the Feralan description posted I tentatively came up with this:

Alignments: NG, CG.
HLAs: Standard.

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Advantages:

- 10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently skills.
- May go into a Barbarian Rage once per day per 10 levels.
- Some animal summon thing?

Disadvantages:

- May only place proficiency points in weapons a Druid can use.
- May not wear armour heavier than Studded Leather.
- Charisma cap is -2 compared to a standard member of the race.

Not sure what to do about the spell restrictions mentioned for this. The CHR cap is not nice :(, but I'm not sure how else to implement a reaction penalty?

The main thing I was worried about though, as I said, is similarity to Beast Master:

Quote
BEAST MASTER: This ranger is a wanderer, and is not comfortable in civilized lands.  He maintains a natural affinity for animals; they are his friends and comrades-in-arms, and the Beast Master has a limited form of telepathic communication with them.

Advantages:
-  +15% to stealth ability
-  Enhanced spell ability with regard to the following spells:
May cast the 4th level druid spell Animal Summoning 1 at 8th level. 
May cast Animal Summoning 2 at 10th level. 
May cast Animal Summoning 3 at 12th level.

Disadvantages:
-  Cannot not use metal weapons (such as swords, halberds, hammers or morning stars).
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 15, 2004, 09:35:25 AM
I suggest setting the Feralan's restrictions to those of a Shapeshifter (no armour, can only wield clubs, darts, spears, daggers, slings, and staffs).  To make up for this, perhaps bonuses to STR and CON, and/or the ability to place more stars than usual in the weapons he can use?
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: Andyr on May 15, 2004, 10:07:15 AM
So, replace the weapon/armour restrictions with the Shapeshifter ones, and allow Mastery with those weapons?

Then +1 STR, +1 CON but -2 CHR?

Keeping the skill and Rage abilities.
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 15, 2004, 10:15:45 AM
Sounds good to me :).
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: icelus on May 15, 2004, 10:44:45 AM
What about a speed increase, á la Barbarian?

I'm not sure if he should be able to cast Animal Summoning spells as an innate ability, as then the line between the Beast Master and the Feralan would defintely become too blurry.  Would permanent Charm Animal be possible/too cheesy?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 15, 2004, 10:55:49 AM
So, I was thinking... Perhaps the Justifier should have spells disabled entirely? Or some other casting disadvantage?

The other thing about spells being 3 levels behind is they'll catch up to a kitless Ranger in spell power, just 3 levels later, so by ToB you've effectively got no disadvantages while you have all the Justifier advantages. So perhaps removing spells is a good thing?

Finally, I've left Charm Animal in. You want it in/out? :)
Well, if not removed completely, perhaps delayed even more than three levels behind the normal ranger.  I also think that Charm Animal should probably be left out, and perhaps raise the bonus to stealth a bit more.

If you do remove spellcasting, perhaps leave Armor of Faith, Remove Fear, Luck, and/or Draw Upon Holy Might as innates?   :-\
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 15, 2004, 12:14:09 PM
How about a casting time penalty? Maybe 2/10 or 3/10 of a round or something...

BTW Andyr - completely OT, but: how DO you create a kit? It's not mentioned in any WeiDU tutorial I can find... :-\
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 15, 2004, 12:18:18 PM
There are quite a few here: http://tutorials.teambg.net/index.php?page=viewtuts&type=5
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 15, 2004, 12:19:34 PM
What about the original (D&D) Feralan summon animal ability? Isn't that one possible to code? It would certainly add originality to the class...
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 15, 2004, 12:20:31 PM
*kicks self*

OK, forget I ever said that  :-[
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: icelus on May 15, 2004, 12:24:41 PM
From the Complete Ranger's Handbook:

Quote
Call of the Wild[/b]:
When in his primary terrain, the Feralan may attempt to summon familial species animals by howling at the top of his lungs for 1-6 round.  The DM then secretly rolls percentile dice.  If the result is less than or equal to the Feralan's Wisdom score plus his level (a 5th level Feralan with Wisdom 15 has a base chance of 20%), 1-4 familial animals show up within the next hour.  Once they arrive, these animals act as followers for the next 1-4 hours.   During this time, the Feralan may command them with his speak with animals ability.  At the end of the 1-4 hour period, the summoned animals disappear into the wilderness.  A Feralan can attempt call of the wild once per day.

Is this the one you're referring to, rreinier?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 15, 2004, 12:25:54 PM
No problem, but I'd avoid the Kit Creation Guide v2.5.  It won't help you WeiDU-up a kit.  :(
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 15, 2004, 12:28:34 PM
Will do. Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 15, 2004, 12:31:53 PM
Something like that. I read the 3e version, which also added the Charisma modifier to the percentile chance of a succesful summons.

Would this be codable, though?
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: icelus on May 15, 2004, 12:34:13 PM
It should be.  It's be similar to a Summon Animal spell, but perhaps have it only summon dogs or wolves.  It could be called "Call of the Wild" and given as an innate.
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 15, 2004, 12:43:58 PM
Would it be possible to add the "summons native creatures" component? In other words: could we make the spell check which area it's being cast in, and change it's summons accordingly?

Also, I'm thinking that the 1% per level and 1% per wisdom point might be a little low for a once/day ability, since it'd harldy ever exceed 50%. How about 20% + 1% per level + 2% per wisdom point? That would lead to a maximum of around 80%.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 11:19:46 AM
Yeah, there's a pretty good example in the WeiDU bundle. Looking at the billions of .2DAs involved also makes stuff make more sense. :)

I'll whack up the Stealth bonus by another 5%, and remove spellcasting and Charm Animal.

How about those spells (and Cure Light Wounds) as innates, once per day, gained in stages from around Level 8 or so?

If that's cool, and I don't attempt Iron Modder, I will try and finish this this evening. :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 16, 2004, 11:20:33 AM
Sounds good.  :)
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 11:26:19 AM
We could pinch the Totemic Druid's Summon Totem Animal and essentially just rename it for Call of the Wild?
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: icelus on May 16, 2004, 11:28:53 AM
That'll work, though I don't think snakes would respond to a Feralan's call.  :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 11:29:10 AM
kk
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 11:35:51 AM
Could make a more 3E - esque summoning spell.

Summons a creature for 3 rounds + 1/level, with thac0, damage and hit points increasing with level, usable once per day?

Thing is though, I think we'd have to decide what the player's familiar animal species is for them, not sure how we can let them do it or if it's worth it to try. :) Wolves are probably a pretty safe bet.

Maybe then summoning a dog at lower levels, then a wolf, a winter wolf then a dire wolf? At high levels we could make a tougher critter called a Pack Leader or something.

Faster movement speed would be fine too.

The 3E writeup suggested limited spells, shall we scrap that idea? :)
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: icelus on May 16, 2004, 11:50:29 AM
I like the canine progression table you're proposing. 

As for the limiting spells--I think it'd be more logical that the Feralan perhaps isn't disciplined enough to cast many spells, so, if it's not too difficult to code, I'd say go for it.
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 16, 2004, 11:51:04 AM
Since the ability is not exactly uber-powerful in BGII, I'd say something like once per day per five levels, starting at level one with one use, or something like that.

BTW: A problem that, I think, has come up earlier in discussing the Feralan: The PC was raised in Candlekeep, by Gorion. Doesn't that create inconsistancies with the Feralan kit, which was raised in the wild by animals?
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: icelus on May 16, 2004, 11:56:10 AM
Yeah, that is the problem, but the flipside of the argument was always that Gorion couldn't have raised a Barbarian, either.  :(
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 16, 2004, 11:59:34 AM
Fair enough.  :)
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 12:03:18 PM
I could limit the spheres he has access to to Healing, Animal, Combat?
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 16, 2004, 12:09:11 PM
Those sound fine, though I wonder if "sun" wouldn't also be appropriate. Not sure though.
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 12:20:17 PM
Not sure which spells are in Sun that are level 1 - 3.

I could just remove access to the Plant sphere? That gets rid of Entangle, Barkskin, not sure what else.
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: rreinier on May 16, 2004, 12:23:12 PM
Thinking about it further, I think that Healing, Animal and Combat would be fine. Either that, or replace Combat with Plant. Or remove both...

Why did you want to remove plant, BTW? It seems appropriate for one who was raised in the wild.
Title: Re: Feralan
Post by: Andyr on May 16, 2004, 12:33:23 PM
I think the original write - up indicated or implied they only have the animal affinity part of general Ranger Nature stuff, was why.

I'll have a peak at Ranger spells later, see what to keep/lose.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: neriana on May 16, 2004, 05:56:56 PM
I thought the reason Minsc was Minsc was that he was hit on the head twice. Of course, that doesn't mean he couldn't be a Feralan. Also, he says "full plate and packing steel". Would this work with limited armor and weapons?
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 16, 2004, 06:06:42 PM
Minsc can Berserk because he's from Rashemen and Rashemen warriors can.  The ways in which Minsc differs from a standard ranger are because of a blow to the head and his nationality.  The PC can't come from Rashemen, and while the PC could certainly have a blow to the head, it doesn't seem like a good basis for a kit.  Let me see...

ADVANTAGES: Has access to dialogue options normally only available to characters with 18 Intelligence and Wisdom, these options being suggested by the character's Miniature Giant Space Hamster.  The character can also function as a ranger despite not qualifying for the normal ranger stat requirements.

DISADVANTAGES:-7 to Wisdom, -4 to Intelligence, and -2 to Charisma.

So, yeah.  I don't think Minsc needs a kit or that the Feralan sounds like him.  He wasn't raised by hamsters.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: icelus on May 16, 2004, 06:12:28 PM
Minsc won't be receiving the Feralan kit via UB, that's for certain.  Idobek's NPC Kit mod takes care of that by changing his kit name to Rashemaar Ranger (and with no other changes).  Actually, were it not for the tactician requirement, the Justifier is more appropriate for Minsc than the Feralan.  He won't be getting the Justifier kit either, though.  :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 17, 2004, 11:16:11 AM
Ok, this is what I have (almost) finished making:

Quote
JUSTIFIER: Some expeditions are so demanding and some foes so dangerous that they require the attention of a highly trained specialist whose combat skills far exceed those of the typical ranger. Enter the Justifier, a master tactician whose military instincts, fighting versatility, and steely nerves places him in the first rank of elite warriors.

For a determined Justifier, no job is too difficult, no enemy too formidable. Their proficiency with weapons gives them an edge in combat, though the smaller time devoted to magical training leaves them slightly lacking in that department.

They must be human and of Lawful Good alignmment.

Advantages:

-  +10% bonus to hide in shadows and move silently skills
-  +1 to speed factor and thac0 per 10 levels

Disadvantages:

-  No access to Charm Animal ability
-  Limited access to spells. May only cast the following:
Cure Light Wounds and Armour of Faith once each per day from level 8
Luck and Remove Fear each once per day from level 10
Draw Upon Holy Might once per day from level 12

Is this ok with you guys? :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: icelus on May 17, 2004, 11:16:59 AM
Looks good.  :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 17, 2004, 01:08:06 PM
Ok, I've coded this. I'll wait til the Feralan is done, and get some more people to test it, before I send it off though. :)

One thing: I have disabled spell casting, though not removed the spell slots themselves. So, you can still memorise spells, just never cast them.

Will see if I can get around this with excessive use of spell slot removal spells on levelling. :)

So... final ideas in Feralan thread plz kk??/
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 17, 2004, 03:46:24 PM
Can't you just use AP_xxxxx everytime he gains a spell slot?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 17, 2004, 05:37:32 PM
That's the plan. :)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Bibbi on May 18, 2004, 05:37:17 PM
I had thought that kits weren't being implemented.  i mean, i wouldn't use them, though maybe others would.  it seems slightly out of the scope of the mod, imo...
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 18, 2004, 05:49:55 PM
The goal of the mod is to restore content that was originally planned for the game but was scrapped for whatever reason.  I'm afraid I fail to see how restoring kits that were planned for the game falls out of this remit?
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: jester on May 18, 2004, 05:55:48 PM
Minsc personality is a kit in itself. :) I like the idea of fleshing out characters with unchoosable kits, but the Feralan and the Justifier just don't strike me as interesting enough. Most of the Feralan benefits are very nice in human interaction and are a complete waste in a CRPG. :(
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Bibbi on May 18, 2004, 08:01:44 PM
well, as I see it, the designers chose not to include these kits in place of the current kits, and there was a reason for that, be it to give all classes the same number of kits, balancing, or whatever other reason.  of course, it can be debated that many of the projects in the mod are similar to this rather than lack of time or resources, but I always saw the mod more of a plot filler than technical aspects such as kits.  it seems like something more for a kit mod or a redesigning of gameplay.  it would unbalance the classes, i think, if the ranger had more choices for kits than the others, unless the mod gives the option of replacing current kits with these new ones, which would then go against the mod ideal of adding and not changing/replacing actual game content...
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 18, 2004, 08:46:13 PM
it would unbalance the classes, i think, if the ranger had more choices for kits than the others,
How so?  The PC can still only have one.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 21, 2004, 09:28:42 PM
This is a very rough write-up of what has been suggested so far:

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Advantages:

- 10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently skills.
- May go into a Barbarian Rage once per day per 10 levels.
- +1 to STR and CON
- Moves at 1 (2?) point faster than normal
- May cast Call of the Wild once per day

Disadvantages:

- May only place proficiency points in weapons a Shapeshifter can use.
- May not wear armour heavier than Studded Leather.
- Charisma cap is -2 compared to a standard member of the race.
- Limited spellcasting (or none at all?)
- Can only access Healing, Animal, Combat spheres


Call of the Wild
Summons a creature for 3 rounds + 1/level, with thac0, damage and hit points increasing with level, usable once per day per five levels

Maybe then summoning a dog at lower levels, then a wolf, a winter wolf then a dire wolf? At high levels we could make a tougher critter called a Pack Leader or something.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 21, 2004, 09:35:02 PM
I'm still not sure about spellcasting... Cam pointed out that +1 to STR and CON is a rather large advantage, so perhaps spellcasting should be disabled completely to balance it out a bit.

Have we moved, however, too close to the Barbarian? 
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 21, 2004, 10:01:23 PM
Here's another take:

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Advantages:

- 10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently skills.
- May go into a Feral Rage once per day per 10 levels.
- Innate ability Non-Detection once per day per 8 levels
- Moves at 1 (2?) point faster than normal
- May cast Call of the Wild once per day

Disadvantages:

- May only place proficiency points in weapons a Shapeshifter can use.
- May not wear armour heavier than Studded Leather.
- Charisma cap is -2 compared to a standard member of the race.
- Limited spellcasting (or none at all?)
- Can only access Healing, Animal, Combat spheres


Call of the Wild
Summons a creature for 3 rounds + 1/level, with thac0, damage and hit points increasing with level, usable once per day per five levels

Maybe then summoning a dog at lower levels, then a wolf, a winter wolf then a dire wolf? At high levels we could make a tougher critter called a Pack Leader or something.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 22, 2004, 07:01:28 PM
A slightly different take here... May code this up as a starting point? I'm sure I can find someone to play with it for feedback. :) Any thoughts? It's sort of stripped down to shorten the list of advantages and disadvantages, but trying to keep true to the concept.

BTW what are Shapeshifter restrictions?

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Advantages:
-  +10% to Stealth ability.
-  May go into a Feral Rage once per day per 10 levels.
-  May cast Call of the Wild once per day.

Disadvantages:
-  May only place proficiency points in weapons a Shapeshifter can use.
-  May not wear any armour.
-  Receives a -2 penalty to Charisma on character creation.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 22, 2004, 07:26:02 PM
I dunno... now it seems pretty underpowered.  Not wearing armor and severe weapon restrictions don't seem to balance out a once-a-day innate ability.  Unless you're keeping spellcasting, albeit limited... ?

As for the Shapeshifter item restrictions... I dunno why that was suggested, actually.  I don't see any different in the kit description between the items a druid and the items a shapeshifter can use. 

Quote
SHAPESHIFTER: This druid is not called Shapeshifter because of access to a great variety of forms, rather because of the complete dedication to a single alternate form.  This druid has willingly allowed infection with Lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training, has the ability to control the affliction.  The creature shapeshifted to is that of the Werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.

Advantages:
-  May shapeshift into the form of a werewolf once per day for every 2 levels (starts at 1st level with one use).
-  At 13th level gains the ability to change into a greater werewolf once per day.

Disadvantages:
-  No other shapeshifting abilities due to the effort required maintaining balance in primary forms
-  Cannot wear ANY armor
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 23, 2004, 05:12:31 AM
Well, with my above build I wasn't going to restrict spells at all, to keep it away from the Barbarian. :) So it shouldn't be that underpowered.

The Beast Master Ranger kit has weapon restrictions (non - metal only), that's all I can see... But do we want 2 ranger kits to have the same restrictions? Hmmm.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 23, 2004, 09:36:59 AM
Hmm... I see your point about weapon restrictions.  Beastmasters, I would guess, are opposed to metallic weapons on principle, whereas a Feralan may have just never had any experience with them.  Perhaps no weapon restrictions should be placed on the Feralan, but cap it at one proficiency point for metallic weapons?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 23, 2004, 09:41:29 AM
Seems like a good idea, though I'd exclude the dagger from this restriction. Seems easy enough for a skilled woodsman to make a dagger out of bone. Not sure if this'd apply to other weapons as well.

I would, however, restrict crossbows too. They're not exactly easy to come by in the wild...
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 23, 2004, 11:33:33 AM
What about things like Spears, too, though?

Shall I just cap at 1 all the sword types (except daggers), crossbows, flails? Anything else?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 23, 2004, 11:51:12 AM
I'd say spears are OK.  Would a long stick with a pointed end still be considered a spear?  Even so, the methods needed to use a spear wouldn't really change if a metal point was added to the end, so I don't think anyone should be penalized for that.  Swords, halberds, crossbows, etc., all require I would assume, more specialized training to master, and, living in the wild, a Feralan wouldn't really pick up on.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 23, 2004, 12:11:57 PM
I'd say:

1 pip: bastard sword, long sword, two handed sword, katana, scimitar, halberd, flail, crossbow
2 pips: axe, dagger, war hammer, club, spear, quarter staff, longbow, shortbow, sling, dart

Not sure about short sword and mace. They're both weapons that one would not find or make in the wild, but the techniques are similar to "2 pips" weapons (dagger and club, respectively).

About weapon styles: maximum pips for all of them, except maybe sword and shield? Not sure about that one. Not that it matters too much, since nobody actually seems to use that weapon style...

I wouldn't say this particularly underpowers the Feralan. Dual-wielding axes or war hammers, or using longbows, he can be quite a formidable fighter...

About armor restrictions: I'm doubtful. Would it be possible to only have him be able to use Hide armor? It seems the only appropriate type, since even Leather and Studded leather would be unavailable in the wild.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 23, 2004, 12:31:46 PM
I like rreinier's suggestion. :) I'd say 2 pips in Mace but only one in Short Sword. If we make Short Sword 2, it might cause all sorts of debates like actulay i r train with teh short sowrds 4 23 yaers adn tehy are asey 2 use tahn maces!!!11

Was going to leave all the Weapon Styles at full, though, yeah, few people use shields with Rangers. :)

Hide only I don't think is possible. But I can restrict it to None (using the Shapeshifter kit flag) or Studded Leather max (with Stalker/Archer).

So, final thoughts?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 23, 2004, 12:35:30 PM
I could go either way on the armor, I suppose.  Most of the kits have armor restrictions based on how it affects their particular skill (kensai, monk, archer, thief, etc).  I suppose it comes down to a question of principle.  The Beastmaster and druid can wear leather armor, and they're arguably as much in tune as the Feralan, so I don't know if I see a reason why a Feralan would be opposed to it--unless it reminds him of his mother or something... heh.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 23, 2004, 12:46:04 PM
I'm not sure either. The thing is, Rangers can wear any armour, right? But all 3 BioWare kits have armour restrictions of (I think) nonmetal armour only. So, giving the Feralan that makes it the same as the others. But not restricting it all all would be a bit silly...

How about no armour but gets a +1 AC bonus every 5 levels?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 23, 2004, 12:48:14 PM
Hmmm... OK.  Would a +1 CON or DEX be too much, too?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 23, 2004, 01:09:22 PM
<Andyr> Do you think a DEX/CON bonus as well as bonus AC?
<Icelus> I dunno... I just hate having armor restrictions.  Personal preference, nothing more... heh.
<Icelus> What is the progression for kensai and monk?
<Andyr> hehe
<Andyr> um, I'll go check
<Andyr> Right
<Andyr> Kensai get a bonus of 2
<Andyr> Monks get 1 at first level, then 1 every other level (!!!)
<Andyr> Swashbucklers get 1 at first level, then 1 every 5 levels
<Icelus> I just keep thinking that he'll have a really high AC.
<Icelus> Though, I suppose that's about right.
<Icelus> But, I keep thinking about how agile Tarzan was... heh.
<Andyr> hehe
<Andyr> I think they cap about level 35, so that's AC 2 or 3 - about the same as Plate Mail.
<Andyr> Also, do you reckon a CHR penalty is ok for a disadvantage? It reminds me of TDD :P but I can't think of much else.
<Icelus> Well, you're better at making kits than I am, so I'll bow to your better judgement.  :)
<Icelus> Hmm...
<Icelus> If it were the only penalty, I'd say it's marginal, since there are so many CHA boosting items in the game...
<Icelus> But, coupled with no armor, I think it's OK.
<Icelus> I wouldn't peg Feralans to be the most outgoing people.
<Andyr> So, no armour, and a +1 AC bonus per 5 levels? Weapon restrictions as RReinier posted, and Feral Rage and Call of the Wild as previously discussed?
<Icelus> kk
<Andyr> :D
<Icelus> Feral Rage lowers AC, doesn't it?
<Andyr> hmm... I think so. I'll go read the Barbarian description.
<Andyr> Actually, I think it makes AC worse?
<Icelus> If so, then that can be our justification.  :)
<Icelus> Really?  Just a STR and HP boost?
<Icelus> For berserkers, it says +2 to hit, +2 to damage, -2 AC.
<Icelus> Barbarian is +4 STR and CON...
<Andyr>   May use 'enrage' ability once per day per 4 levels.  The enraged state lasts for 60 seconds.
<Andyr> -  While enraged: +2 to hit, +2 damage, -2 AC
<Andyr> -  While enraged: immune to charm, hold and fear, maze, imprisonment, stun and sleep.
<Andyr> -  While enraged: gains 15 hit points.  These hit points are temporary, and are taken away at the end of his berserk spree, possibly killing the berserker.
<Icelus> Unless the guide is wrong
<Icelus> Ah.
<Andyr> Perhaps they are different then.
<Icelus> :)
<Andyr> (that was Berserker one)
<Icelus> I like the berserker one better.  :)
<Andyr> Shall we go with that, then?
<Icelus> kk
<Andyr> right
<Andyr> Shall I post this log to save us having to type something meaningful, in case one of the others wants to chime in? :)
<Icelus> Heh... OK.
<Icelus> We didn't discuss magical beings or bras, so we should be OK.
<Andyr> hehehehhehe
<Andyr> That was innocent, I tell you! :)
* Icelus rubs his chin, then crosses his arms in disbelief
* Andyr cries
<Icelus> Big girls don't cry.  :D
<Icelus> (or is that just an alibi?)
<Andyr> :P
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Kish on May 23, 2004, 01:49:02 PM
Barbarian Rage and Berserker Rage are in fact quite different, yes.  (And Minsc Berserk is different again.)
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 23, 2004, 02:44:59 PM
Quote
Most of the kits have armor restrictions based on how it affects their particular skill (kensai, monk, archer, thief, etc).
I agree. In this light, I think that no greater than studded leather seems most appropriate (and it maintains continuity with Bioware...).

Not sure how that would affect the "natural armor class" thingy, though. You might want to keep that to a non-increasing bonus (like the Kensai has).
That makes sense too, since the Feralan's distinguishing factor (being brought up in the wild) doesn't continue to affect his abilities after he's back in civilization... It's more logical to give him a set of starting bonuses...

That would give us:

Quote
Advantages:

- 10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently skills.
- May go into a Feral Rage once per day per 10 levels.
- Innate ability Non-Detection once per day per 8 levels
- Moves at 2 points faster than normal
- May cast Call of the Wild once per day

Disadvantages:

- May only become Specialized in axes, daggers, war hammers, clubs, spears, quarter staves, longbows, shortbows, slings and darts
- May not wear armour heavier than Studded Leather.
- -2 to Charisma
- Gains spells slower than normal Rangers do.
- Can only access Healing, Animal, Combat spheres.

Does that sound about right? It seems balanced to me...

One final thing to consider is the exact working of the Call of the Wild spell. Were you planning on leaving it like it is, or implementing the percentile chances based on level, wisdom and charisma?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 23, 2004, 06:09:28 PM
Was going to have Call of the Wild just be a regular summons improving with levels. :)

I had personally thought about not restricting spells or giving Nondetection or movement bonus, just using something similar to my earlier build. To keep the Advantages/Disadvantages list shorter.

However, I've not coded anything final yet, so am still open to suggestions. Will post my current build idea in a day or so.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 24, 2004, 12:03:10 AM
You could take out the spell restrictions and the non-detection spell...

About the movement bonus: would there be a way to make this apply only in wilderness areas?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 24, 2004, 10:20:49 AM
It might be possible by extending the DPLAYER scripts to cast a speed - increasing spell on the character if they are a Feralan and are in an area flagged as Outdoors, yeah. :)

Anyway, this is the build I have at the moment:

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Due to their wild nature, Feralans may not be of Lawful alignment. As Rangers, they are limited to Good alignments.

Advantages:
-  +10% bonus to Stealth ability.
-  Gains +1 AC at first level, and a further bonus of +1 AC per 5 levels.
-  May go into a Feral Rage once per day per 10 levels. The enraged state lasts for 60 seconds. While enraged the Feralan receives a bonus of +2 to hit, damage, and AC, and is immune to charm, hold and fear, maze, imprisonment, stun and sleep. He also gains 15 temporary hit points, which are taken away at the end of his berserk spree, possibly killing the Feralan.
-  May cast Call of the Wild once per day. This summons an animal companion who will fight for the caster for 3 rounds + 1 round/level. More powerful creatures are summoned at higher levels.

Disadvantages:
-  Becomes winded after Feral Rage.  While he's winded he receives -2 to hit, -2 to damage and a +2 penalty to armor class.
-  Limited to one proficiency point in Bastard sword, Long sword, Short Sword, Two - handed sword, Katana, Scimitar, Halberd, Flail and Crossbow.
-  May not wear any armour.
-  Receives a -2 penalty to Charisma on character creation.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 24, 2004, 10:26:29 AM
It might be possible by extending the DPLAYER scripts to cast a speed - increasing spell on the character if they are a Feralan and are in an area flagged as Outdoors, yeah. :)

Please no. :'(

BALDUR > DPLAYER
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 24, 2004, 10:39:10 AM
Looks good.  Will Call of the Wild only summon animals of the canine persuasion?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 24, 2004, 10:45:31 AM
Well, Baldur or DPlayer. :) Point is, it could be done.

For Call of the Wild, I was thinking (level/animal):

1-5 Dog
6-10 Wolf
11-15 Dire Wolf
16+ Pack Leader (a tougher Dire Wolf)

Winter Wolves are left out since they only live up north, and Vampiric Wolves are out as they are unnatural. :)
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 24, 2004, 10:48:07 AM
Looks good.  :)
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 24, 2004, 10:51:30 AM
Ok, I'll make that then. Do you want movement speed bonus outdoors?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: icelus on May 24, 2004, 10:56:33 AM
If you can code it without much muss and/or fuss, I say go ahead.  It makes sense, since a Feralan would probably be quite skittish in the city or dungeons. 
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 24, 2004, 11:09:50 AM
Ok, I'll give it a go. :)

Sim, why do you suggest BALDUR.BCS rather than the DPLAYER scripts? Any particular reason? Wouldn't DPLAYER be easier for multiplayer games?

I'm assuming the script I'll use is something like this (note, all syntax is from memory, so I'll check before coding):

Code: [Select]
IF
Global("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",0)
AreaType(OUTDOOR)
Kit(Player1,A#FERALAN)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ReallyForceSpellRes("temporaryspeedboostfor5secondsspell",Player1)
SetGlobal("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",1)
END

IF
Global("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",1)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
Wait(5)
SetGlobal("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",0)
END

Would using Wait() create stutter?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Barren on May 24, 2004, 12:03:51 PM
Does it have to be coded as a spell effect? Couldn't you code it the same was as the Barbarian?
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 24, 2004, 12:07:27 PM
Okay, as I said in chat... why should this kit get a movement rate bonus in the wild? Sure, he might be damn good at hacking his way through vegetation, but the pavement's still gonna be faster.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 24, 2004, 12:42:44 PM
But all the other characters move at the same speed in the wilderness as in the city, so it's more an inherent fault of D&D. It is, however, logical for the Feralan to move faster than other characters when outdoors...
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 24, 2004, 05:10:07 PM
Does it have to be coded as a spell effect? Couldn't you code it the same was as the Barbarian?

I think it would have to be a scripted spell effect, since it was only wanted in wilderness areas. Anyway, Sim has told me that script wouldn't work. :)

I'll leave it out for now, until everyone's reached a final decision.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Idobek on May 24, 2004, 05:47:23 PM
Sim, why do you suggest BALDUR.BCS rather than the DPLAYER scripts? Any particular reason? Wouldn't DPLAYER be easier for multiplayer games?
I'm not Sim, but I know the answer: DPLAYER scripts do not run if you switch party AI off.
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: rreinier on May 25, 2004, 12:40:08 AM
Couldn't you use something like:

Code: [Select]
IF
Global("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",0)
AreaType(OUTDOOR)
Kit(Player1,A#FERALAN)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ReallyForceSpellRes("speedboostspelll",Player1)
SetGlobal("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",1)
END

IF
Global("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",1)
!AreaType(OUTDOOR)
Kit(Player1,A#FERALAN)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
Dispel speed boost
SetGlobal("A#speedcheck","GLOBAL",0)
END

If, of course, it'd be possible to remove a single spell effect from a character
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 25, 2004, 10:07:49 AM
Sim, why do you suggest BALDUR.BCS rather than the DPLAYER scripts? Any particular reason? Wouldn't DPLAYER be easier for multiplayer games?
I'm not Sim, but I know the answer: DPLAYER scripts do not run if you switch party AI off.

Yeah, he told me this on IRC. Thanks both of you, I didn't know that. :)
Title: Re: Feralan Kit
Post by: Andyr on May 25, 2004, 02:48:42 PM
Ok, I've coded it up, awaiting Icelus online to send it to him.

Here's the description (I can always make further alterations):

Quote
FERALAN: What happens to children who wander in the wilderness and are never recovered? Or worse, those who are abandoned there? Many succumb to the dangers of the wild, but a fortunate few are taken in by animals, raised as a part of a lion`s brood, or a wolf`s litter. Cut off from civilization, they gradually take on the characteristics of the creatures who adopted them, forming some kind of unity with the spirit of the wild. In the process they become feralans, beings who combine the savagery of beasts with the intellect of man.

Due to their wild nature, Feralans may not be of Lawful alignment. As Rangers, they are limited to Good alignments.

Advantages:
-  +10% to Stealth ability.
-  Gains +1 AC at first level, and a further bonus of +1 AC per 5 levels.
-  May go into a Feral Rage once per day per 10 levels. The enraged state lasts for 60 seconds, and grants a bonus of +2 to hit, damage, and AC, and immunity to charm, hold and fear, maze, imprisonment, stun and sleep. He also gains 15 temporary hit points.
-  May cast Call of the Wild once per day. This summons an animal companion who will fight for the caster for 3 rounds + 1 round/level. More powerful creatures are summoned at higher levels.

Disadvantages:
-  Becomes winded after Feral Rage. While he's winded he receives -2 to hit, -2 to damage and a +2 penalty to armor class.
-  Limited to one proficiency point in Bastard Sword, Long Sword, Short Sword, Two - Handed Sword, Katana, Scimitar, Halberd, Flail and Crossbow.
-  May not wear any armour or use Large Shields.
-  Maximum Charisma is 2 points lower than a standard member of the race.

The Call of the Wild progression is as detailed in a previous post of mine. I made the creatures a little tougher than standard ones else it'd be a fairly crap summons all the way through, though even at high levels it's not especially powerful. Again, I can tweak that if need be. But... It's ready. :)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: icelus on May 25, 2004, 11:07:37 PM
Thanks to Andyr's diligence and dedication, the Justifier and Feralan ranger kits are now coded and undergoing beta testing.  Expect to see them in the upcoming v10 release.  :)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 26, 2004, 05:42:35 AM
it would unbalance the classes, i think, if the ranger had more choices for kits than the others,
How so?  The PC can still only have one.

I personally cringe at the idea of the ranger class having four kits while the other kittable ones, mages excepted, have three.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Barren on May 26, 2004, 11:59:45 AM
Won't it be 5 kits, actually?
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 26, 2004, 01:33:07 PM
it would unbalance the classes, i think, if the ranger had more choices for kits than the others,
How so?  The PC can still only have one.

I personally cringe at the idea of the ranger class having four kits while the other kittable ones, mages excepted, have three.
You could always edit your game to remove the kits they got replaced with (archer and beastmaster wasn't it?)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Andyr on May 26, 2004, 02:18:33 PM
Won't it be 5 kits, actually?

Yeah. if the PC is Human (the Justifier is Human - only).
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 26, 2004, 02:24:07 PM
Um, eww.  Why?

If it's, "Because they are in P&P," I'd strongly recommend you reconsider.  In P&P, most kits have racial restrictions--in BG2, none do.  I'd call that pretty compelling evidence that racial restrictions on kits were intentionally dropped, and the Justifier shouldn't be different in that regard.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 26, 2004, 03:27:03 PM
But the mere fact that you can restrict kits to certain races suggests that Bioware originally planned to do just that - else why would they bother coding it so you could? Likely they dropped that idea simply because they ran out of time / were too lazy / forgot to create any alternative kits for the other races.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 26, 2004, 03:28:34 PM
Racial restrictions on kits = TDD. :)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 26, 2004, 03:48:11 PM
Yep, one of the few things it does right :P.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 26, 2004, 03:50:25 PM
:'(

Sticking out as different from how things were done in the original game is not a positive point in my books.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 26, 2004, 03:57:36 PM
If things in the original game are stupid from a roleplaying and/or realism perspective (honestly, dwarven swashbucklers? Halfling berserkers? Elven assassins? WTF? Lets not even get started on the clerics :P) then not only should you by all means deviate from it, you should "fix" the originals as well ;) -  as you yourself know from "fixing" reputation :).

Of course I'm not suggesting UB should alter the restrictions for existing kits (unless of course we find out for certain that Bioware planned it), but I for one would be glad for a mod which did...
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 26, 2004, 04:01:07 PM
Then fix them. But don't add one kit that stands out as being different.

And any mod that fixes them should bear in mind that reducing some races to about 1 kit per class isn't going to be particularly great, so new kits are gonna need to be added too.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 26, 2004, 06:04:42 PM
If things in the original game are stupid from a roleplaying and/or realism perspective (honestly, dwarven swashbucklers? Halfling berserkers? Elven assassins? WTF?
What about them is contrary to "roleplaying" or "realism"?  Halflings can be warriors; dwarves don't have to swing axes; and of course no elf would ever be a professional killer--just ask Joneleth or Bodhi.  Game mechanics should not enforce, "You cannot act contrary to a narrow stereotype of your race."
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 27, 2004, 02:19:55 AM
It's not stereotyping.  I never said halflings can't be warriors, dwarves have to swing axes (otherwise I would have said they should be prohibted them from the thief class altogether!) or elves can't be monstrous killers.  But the first and last of these are supposed to be exceptionally rare occurences (dwarves with swords are rare, but not so much as the others), and the kits I gave as examples - as well as certain others - even more so.  Basically they're just as unlikely to ever happen as a human bladesinger.

Being an assassin is contrary to elven nature, even for evil elves (and as I said, it's supposed to be extremely unommon for an elf to even be evil anyway).  Can you just imagine what a dwarven (or gnomish) swashbuckler would look like? He'd be laughed at wherever he went - it could make for a interesting pnp campaign maybe, but it would require altering almost every single BG2 character's dialogue to work properly.  Being a berserker is quite against halfling nature; even evil halflings - which are again supposed to be very rare - tend to have a more relaxed attitude than that a berserker would have, not to mention that race's strength is limited compared to the others.

The big question is, why allow certain races to chose kits which only 1 in 100 billion of that race would ever have, when far more common kits for that race (the aforemention bladesinger or wilderness runner for elves, clansdwarf or battlerager for dwarves, sheriff or burglar for halfling, breachgnome or tumbler for gnome, etc) aren't even selectable?
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: MagusWizardo on May 27, 2004, 05:57:48 AM
it's supposed to be extremely unommon for an elf to even be evil anyway
I have one word for you, and that is "Drow".
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2004, 06:12:50 AM
You don't play a drow in BG2. That much is fairly evident.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: MagusWizardo on May 27, 2004, 06:51:01 AM
You don't play a drow in BG2. That much is fairly evident.
But their existance shows that elves can be evil, and that it isn't as rare as NiGHTMARE claims - especially not in the context of this game. You meet a whole city of evil elves... and you can romance another.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2004, 06:55:10 AM
But if the majority of surface elves are non-evil, and you play a surface elf, you're statistically likely to be non-evil, as NiGHTMARE said. Drow don't come into it.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Nesquaam on May 27, 2004, 07:40:33 AM
You don't play a drow in BG2. That much is fairly evident.
You can if you have the Subraces Mod installed.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2004, 07:41:21 AM
I am now in tears as the point I was trying to make has been slurped into a sea of... something.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 27, 2004, 02:54:33 PM
Basically they're just as unlikely to ever happen as a human bladesinger.
So a halfling who learns to channel anger, or an elven professional killer (bear in mind, the assassin kit has no alignment restrictions), or a dwarf who uses a fighting style contrary to your image of dwarves, is just as unlikely as a human member of an elven secret society?  Thanks for enlightening me--I had no idea the other races were so...uniform.  Yes, now I see that of course halflings are, Vulcan-like, incapable of getting angry enough to be berserkers--and how could I forget the 18 Strength requirement for a berserker?  And elves--someone should write a mod restricting them from the Thief class entirely, or at least to just the Swashbuckler kit, backstabbing being so inappropriate to their culture.  And dwarves--it shouldn't be possible to create a dwarf with higher Dexterity than Strength, since of course everyone would laugh at a dwarf who relies on agility rather than brute force in battle.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Andyr on May 27, 2004, 03:59:33 PM
I made the kit Human Only as that was part of the original description coded - I'll glady open it up to all Ranger - allowed races, though. :)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 27, 2004, 04:29:04 PM
Original description coded--as in planned by Bioware?  If that's what it was meant to be in BG2, not just in P&P, I'd say you should go with it.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: SimDing0™ on May 27, 2004, 04:31:25 PM
I disagree. We have no way of knowing where in the order of events writing the kit description and deciding to scrap racial restrictions came. I'd say it's more important to remain consistent when this knowledge is questionnable.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Andyr on May 27, 2004, 04:37:24 PM
Oops, typo. I meant original description posted in the thread, sorry.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: NiGHTMARE on May 28, 2004, 02:31:05 AM
Yes, I was quite obviously referring to surface elves, not drow.

It's not about the fighting style of a dwarf.  If you would actually care to read all of my previous post instead of skipping the parts that make your argument invalid, I already said that if I believed all dwarves fought the same way, I'd want them to be restricted from being thieves (who can't use axes at all).  I also listed a battlerager as an example of a dwarven kit, and they fight absolutely nothing like other dwarves whatsoever.

Why would someone be an assassin? Two main reasons: 1) they enjoy killing people, 2) for the money.  Now, 1) is extremely unlikely becauses they're not human; they have radically different view of life and death than we do, seing death not as end but part of an eternal cycle.  Therefore killing would give them little pleasure, unless it was in rage/revenge/whatever - and a good assassin has to try to remain unemotional.  Regarding 2) again they're not human, and elves are supposed to have little care or need for wealth - that's one of the many things they see as a weakness among the other races, particularly humans and dwarves.

BTW, yes the assassin kit does have alignment restrictions - both in pnp and BG2.  Complete Thieves' Handbook: "Most Assassins are of evil alignment.  However, it is conceivable that one might be of a neutral (but not good) alignment."  BG2: "Assassins must be of Evil or Chaotic Neutral alignment."

The reason humans cannot be bladesinges is because 1) elves don't want non-elves to be bladesingers, and 2) because training to be a bladesiger takes so long, a human would be in his 70's or 80's by the time he finished.

I will address halflings later.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Kish on May 28, 2004, 03:00:34 AM
It's not about the fighting style of a dwarf.  If you would actually care to read all of my previous post instead of skipping the parts that make your argument invalid, I already said that if I believed all dwarves fought the same way, I'd want them to be restricted from being thieves (who can't use axes at all).
You offered absolutely no support for the idea that the swashbuckler kit would be unsuitable for a dwarf.  You just asserted that he (interesting gender assumption there, btw) would be laughed at wherever he went.  I don't think anyone would contend that dwarven swashbucklers would be likely in a world where everyone believed the nonhuman races to be as uniform as you do.

Not about the fighting style of a dwarf?  That's exactly what the swashbuckler kit is about--a fighting style, which you claim would be "laughed at."
Quote
BG2: "Assassins must be of Evil or Chaotic Neutral alignment."
I'd suggest you, like, load up BG2 and try to actually create an assassin before you embarass yourself further.
Quote
I will address halflings later.
I'm sure your insights into why halflings shouldn't be allowed to step outside of their stereotypical niche will be fascinating.
Quote
The big question is, why allow certain races to chose kits which only 1 in 100 billion of that race would ever have, when far more common kits for that race (the aforemention bladesinger or wilderness runner for elves, clansdwarf or battlerager for dwarves, sheriff or burglar for halfling, breachgnome or tumbler for gnome, etc) aren't even selectable?
The obvious reason would be: Because they chose to make kits independent of races (and, yes, as Fallen Demon notes, it would make very little sense for an elf who was raised by a human monk to be a bladesinger).
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: fallen demon on May 28, 2004, 09:54:28 AM
But most of the reasons you've listed are cultural reasons that would influence the pc not to choose these kits.  While i could make an argument about how these stereotypes can be broken so why shouldn't the pc be able to, i don't have to.  Keep in mind who raised the pc, regardless of their race, Gorian, a human.  You have infinitley more human influence then anything, so theres no cultural restrictions involved, and your more likely to worship a human diety then one of your given race, so unless there is some physical reason why you couldn't train as a class, there shouldn't be anything against it.  As a matter of fact, I don't even see why races should play a role at all, why can't an elf be a druid or a halfling a ranger.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Barren on May 28, 2004, 02:15:50 PM
2e rules. Got changed in 3e.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Lord Kain on May 28, 2004, 02:27:30 PM
i can tell you why the kit was cut.
Because the kit requires the person to be raised in the wild. The PC was raised in candle keep.
So the reason the kit isn't there is because it would be a kit the PC couldn't have.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: icelus on May 28, 2004, 02:57:22 PM
i can tell you why the kit was cut.
Because the kit requires the person to be raised in the wild. The PC was raised in candle keep.
So the reason the kit isn't there is because it would be a kit the PC couldn't have.

Yes, that is true, and it is the grounds for the kit's controversy.  The same case, however, can be probably made for the barbarian class, but it was included in the final version...
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: seanas on May 28, 2004, 04:55:32 PM
de-lurking...

true enough about the barbarian but:

barbarians and raised-by-animals stories have very different literary origins (which is where all roleplaying gets its stories, right?). barbarians owe a lot to robert e howard, whose conan remained a barbarian throughout his life *even tho* he spent most of it living in the 'civilised' world: for howard, being a barbarian is basically an inherent property - so that a barbarian child brought up in candlekeep would remain a barbarian even tho they had never lived as a barbarian (it's related to that whole 'noble savage' thing).

kaspar hauser stories (aka children-raised-by-animals) stories, on the other hand, are very different: the child remains a human even though they think they're a wolf, or whatever - and indeed, unless i'm remembering it incorrectly, there are versions of the kapsar hauser story in which the child eventually forgets its upbringing. [true even for tarzan - at within re howard's work, altho not in hollywood's.] child-raised-by-animals is, in literature, a leant identity, not an innate one: the child remain human (or elven, etc, in the roleplaying world) and so may well lose any abilities they were taught by animals if they associated with humans too much. hence, child-raised-by-animals-then gorian wouldnt be feralan, but might be barbarian (if its parents were barbarian, that is).

exec summary: barbarians = within roleplaying genre; feralans = outside roleplaying genre (altho i'd enjoy playing one)



Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: neriana on May 29, 2004, 12:05:37 AM
Any character at all can make sense within the roleplaying genre. That's part of the point. If a swashbuckling dwarf bothers you for some strange reason, don't play one.

Assassins have exactly the same restrictions as every other thief in BG2: they cannot be Lawful Good. That's it.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Ghreyfain on May 29, 2004, 01:05:00 AM
I think Montaron's a good example of a non-stereotypical assassin character.  I don't see it being much of a stretch to find an evil elf.

Also, who says a dwarf can't be a PIRATE?!  I will kill you and steal your cargo of precious silk!
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Dark Raven on June 04, 2004, 08:42:46 PM
What no dwarf monk?  ::)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: fallen demon on June 10, 2004, 12:22:15 AM
I think Montaron's a good example of a non-stereotypical assassin character.  I don't see it being much of a stretch to find an evil elf.

Also, who says a dwarf can't be a PIRATE?!  I will kill you and steal your cargo of precious silk!
I do remember thinking korgan talked like a pirate on occasion.
Title: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Jonas on June 14, 2004, 06:06:38 AM
Which is the better warrior? Is the additional THAC0 and speed the Justifiers only advantage over the Fighter? Can the Justifier achieve grand mastery in weapon profs? Or to sum up, why should I play as a Justifier and not as a Fighter?
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: scott3614 on June 14, 2004, 09:04:42 AM
1.  The Justifier gives you two free proficiencies in 2 weapon style,
2.  +1 speed factor and THAC0 every 10 lvls,
3.  +10% stealth, and
4.  PC will ALWAYS be able to cast Cure Light Wounds, Armor of Faith, Luck, Remove Fear, and DUHM.  Many of these are innates from BG1 that you will lose permanantly once JonBoy gets you in Spellhold.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Jonas on June 14, 2004, 01:51:26 PM
Yeah, alright. But which is better just as a warrior? Who has the highest damage rolls and stuff? Does the Fighter have any advantages over the Justifier at all?
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: scott3614 on June 14, 2004, 01:56:57 PM
The damage rolls will be the same.  On one hand, the fighter will level up faster because of its XP table, but the Justifier gets two free prof points, the additional THAC0 and speed factor bonuses, and those few spells are yours to cast forever and ever.
I'm going to create a Justifier this afternoon, dual wielding axes and flails.  The only drawback I can forsee is that the Justifier cannot get GM in a weapon, only Mastery; but I think this is a good thing as your PC will be able to use a wider variety of weapons.

My $.02
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 14, 2004, 04:30:21 PM
Also note that without any cheats (such as the ones provided by Ease of Use and the one downloadable at the Baldurdash site), anything beyond normal mastery (two plusses) is near useless.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 14, 2004, 05:06:12 PM
I wouldn't exactly call +1 to hit or -1 to speed useless.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Kish on June 14, 2004, 06:19:17 PM
I suspect it seems more "useless" to people who are thinking in terms of being "supposed to" get the benefits those levels provide in BG1.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 14, 2004, 07:32:05 PM
I wouldn't exactly call +1 to hit or -1 to speed useless.

+1 to hit - big deal, when your thaco is -20 or so. Anyway, thac0 (and to an extent, AC) become irrelevant past a certain point.

-1 to speed - so? It's not like the first blow is really important anyway. Unless you have horrendous hp and a critical by  kobold kills you - but then, either you don't have grandmastery yet, or you really suck at min-maxing your stats.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: NiGHTMARE on June 14, 2004, 07:42:59 PM
But proficiency points are meant to be the most useful towards the start of the game, and you're not exactly going to have -20 THAC0 then are you?
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: scott3614 on June 14, 2004, 08:45:02 PM
Also, the Justifier can't dual class.  If that matters to anyone...
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 15, 2004, 02:12:16 AM
Also, the Justifier can't dual class.  If that matters to anyone...

Not even to cleric?
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Andyr on June 15, 2004, 04:40:44 AM
Justifiers must be of LG alignment, so you should play a Fighter if you don't want to be LG. :) I guess it depends on what you want your character to be. Personally I'd say be a Cleric or a Sorceror... In terms of power, remember that as a fighter can get Grand Mastery they'll get more attacks than the Justifier.

Also, Justifiers are allowed to dualclass to Clerics, I just checked the code. ;)
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: scott3614 on June 15, 2004, 08:10:48 AM
aaargh, you're right Andyr, I thought 16 would be a high enough WIS to dual to a cleric.
Anyway, does anyone else's Justifier have 12 lvl 1 druid spells available?
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 15, 2004, 05:49:13 PM
What is your wisdom score?  ???
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: scott3614 on June 15, 2004, 08:30:10 PM
WIS is 14.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 15, 2004, 09:35:09 PM
Wearing any items like the Ring of Holiness or something
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: jester on June 16, 2004, 02:11:29 AM
The ring of Holiness doesn't boost stats, if it is the one you get from the cyric priest in BG1 IIRC.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 16, 2004, 10:05:00 AM
Ring of Holiness:  'Honorary Ring of Sune'
Rings of this type were given to faithful priests of Sune who demonstrated actions of astounding integrity and kindness.

STATISTICS:

Spells:  Grants an extra spell of each level from 1st to 4th
Only usable by:
Cleric
Druid

But apparently it's not using by rangers.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: jester on June 16, 2004, 10:42:22 AM
Not being useable by rangers is irrelevant as it wouldn't help them dual anyway.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Barren on June 16, 2004, 01:15:01 PM
But it grants extra spells, which pas the point of the last few posts  ;D
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Sillara Tamar on June 16, 2004, 09:01:52 PM
Well, my Justifier has an 18 Wis--and 12 1st level spells, with no items at all beyond studded leather and a +1 sword.

Sillara
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Andyr on June 17, 2004, 06:34:08 AM
Hang on... Your Justifiers have spells? They shouldn't, I disabled casting and removed spell slots...

Are they getting their Priest spells as normal?  ???
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Sillara Tamar on June 17, 2004, 07:32:04 AM
Well, I wouldn't exactly say 12 1st level spells is what my other rangers usually get, but she did get them at, I think, level 9 (or whenever it is usually supposed to happen).  It said I had gained a 1st level priest spell, which surprised me, as I had thought they only got those "special ability" type ones.  I will try to find out if I got "charm animal" too.

Sillara
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: Andyr on June 20, 2004, 07:15:43 PM
Replied in the other thread.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Grog on June 21, 2004, 10:17:50 AM
Hi all,

I just picked up ToB (I know, but I got it for less than $5 at EBGames) so I decided to install UB as well.  I noticed that it includes a Justifier Kit, and I thought I'd make some tweak suggestions if I may.

Anyway, these are based off Kit desc.  from the Complete Ranger Handbook:

Advantages:
* +5% Stealth Bonus (instead of 10%)
* Unarmed Combat Expertise {1-4 dmg, with 5% chance to stun target for 1d6 rounds}
* Weapon Speed Reduction
Disadvantages:
* No Charm Ability (Limited Nonweapon Profs)
* Spell progression is delayed until lvl 10.

I'm not 100% sure if the UCE can be done, but delaying the spell progression for the kit can be.  I just think these would make the kit more useful/versitale in game. 

Cheers,


oh, yeah just in case here's the Justifier's Spell Progression:
   Justifier     Casting   Priest   Spell   Level
   Level        Level          1              2              3
   1-9           -               -               -              -   
   10             1              1              -               -   
   11             2              2              -               -   
   12             3              2              1              -   
   13             4              2              2              -   
   14             5              2              2              1   
   15             6              2              2              2   
   16+           7              3              2              2
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Grog on June 21, 2004, 10:30:37 AM
Oh, alternately, appling a permanant -1 or -2 spells per level is much easier than [sepcifically] delaying spell progression until level 10.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Idobek on June 21, 2004, 11:37:38 AM
You would think, but unfortunately the game engine is determined to prove otherwise.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Grog on June 21, 2004, 04:31:15 PM
You would think, but unfortunately the game engine is determined to prove otherwise.

You mean the -X spell per level thing?  That's easy.  Set a Bonus Priest Spells effect (on a spell) to grant a -1 spell per level, with a duration of "Instant/Permanent After Bonuses", then use the ApplySpell() command via script (don't know about doing this via CLAB file).
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Barren on June 21, 2004, 05:26:10 PM
The Cleric Remix beta did that, and it was very buggy.
Title: Re: Justifier vs. Fighter
Post by: icelus on June 21, 2004, 07:47:54 PM
Now that the kits have been released, I've moved the discussion threads out of the workroom.

Feralan (http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?topic=582.0)
Justifier (http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?topic=565.0)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Andyr on June 22, 2004, 11:29:37 AM
Messing with the spell progressions has caused a lot of problems, yes, that we don't know why. :) The engine doesn't seem to like it...

The kit from the Complete Ranger's Handbook was taken into consideration when the kits were designed, and although the outcome is different from the pnp version, we tried to stay close to the ethos.
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Grog on June 22, 2004, 04:06:10 PM
Messing with the spell progressions has caused a lot of problems, yes, that we don't know why. :) The engine doesn't seem to like it...

Hmm, that sucks.  It works like a charm in TotL so I assumed it would in SoA / ToB too.  Of course, I haven't really modded BG2 that much.

Quote
The kit from the Complete Ranger's Handbook was taken into consideration when the kits were designed, and although the outcome is different from the pnp version, we tried to stay close to the ethos.

I understand.  I just didn't know if you were using a Bio adapted description, that someone had found, or if you had the PnP description.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Iluvatar on June 22, 2004, 05:44:03 PM
its amazing how much this thread has got off topic. It started as a thread asking if anyone knew of any other kits that didnt make the final cut. Anyway...carry on  8)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Mr.WaeseL on June 23, 2004, 05:25:37 AM
What no dwarf monk?  ::)

Pssst....check Races of Faerûn. Most notably, the feats section :)
Title: Re: Kits that never made it...
Post by: Lord Kain on June 30, 2004, 02:51:16 PM
Pssst feats are 3rd edition not 2nd.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: scott3614 on July 08, 2004, 09:33:02 PM
I'm just curious as to why I can't SK a Justifier, it's not an option under the Characteristics tab, but IS under the Innate tab.  I suppose I should also say that I'm trying to get a multi-class Justifier/Cleric.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Kish on July 08, 2004, 10:51:16 PM
Shadowkeeper wasn't made to recognize kits that were created after it was--just the ones in the unmodded game.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on July 09, 2004, 07:26:56 AM
You could do it with a modding tool like NearInfinity if you wanted, though.

I wouldn't - it won't work. Justifier spell casting is disabled, and since there's only one Priest spell page it means you won't be able to cast your Cleric spells either. So I'm going to remove dualclassing for it in the next version. :)
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: SimDing0™ on July 10, 2004, 04:50:14 AM
You could just remove the druid spells on level-up for dual-classed justifiers?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on July 10, 2004, 10:44:57 AM
Or remove spell slots on leveling. Wasn't that the original plan anyway?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on July 10, 2004, 02:11:02 PM
Yes, but the problem is the Wisdom bonus to spell slots means it's a variable amount.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on July 10, 2004, 03:36:35 PM
Can't you script it so that Rangers with higher Wisdom lose more spells?

That'd only cause problems with Lum's machine, so you'd have to throw in a bit of extra script there, too, to remove any gained Cleric spells...
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on July 10, 2004, 03:39:20 PM
I'm not sure how simple that'd be, if it could be done at all. But I'll listen to any suggestions.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Necaradan on July 10, 2004, 10:36:10 PM
Can ya just patch the main game script to say 'if justifier kit disable spellcasting' ?
or use a script or a 2DA or something to add a disable spellcasting effect when the game is started ?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Kish on July 10, 2004, 10:50:02 PM
Anything like that would also leave a Justifier/Cleric unable to cast any spells.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Necaradan on July 10, 2004, 11:01:35 PM
I was assuming Andyr was gonna get rid of teh dualclassing anyway...What about letting the Justifier get his spell slots but not allowing him to actually get any spells from teh ranger/druid list so that when he dualclasses he can still get cleric spells

Of course that could mean that the cleric part of him would already have lots of spell slots ?
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Kish on July 10, 2004, 11:21:43 PM
I was assuming Andyr was gonna get rid of teh dualclassing anyway...
There is no problem with simply disabling the Justifier's spellcasting--that would be easy.  Since Sim's post, we've been discussing alternatives to removing the dual-class option.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: Andyr on July 11, 2004, 09:05:11 PM
At the moment, I do disable spell casting.

I also remove slots, though it results in some people getting odd amounts of slots. Even if this happens, though, they can't cast.
Title: Re: Justifier Kit
Post by: rreinier on July 12, 2004, 03:26:33 AM
I'm not sure how simple that'd be, if it could be done at all. But I'll listen to any suggestions.
Well, it might be a bit of a hassle, but I think it'd be possible. For example, as soon as he can cast level one spells, you disable one additional spell slot for wisdom higher than 12, another one for WIS > 13, another one for WIS > 18. Level two slots are removed for WIS higher than 14, 15 and 19, and level 3 slots for WIS higher than 17 and 20.

I'm not sure, but you could probably re-activate those spell slots as soon as he dualclasses.
Title: A Feralan PC?
Post by: WolfCatBot on August 07, 2004, 07:25:12 AM
Feralan(s?) sound really cute, but like, how would CHARNAME be a Feralan?  :(

Being raised by wolves or lions is cool, but Gorion is neither, woof.

I don't suppose it could just be someone who lurves animals? :D


PS. Can any of the Call of The Wild summoned kitties survive in ToB, or even late SoA?

Thankies!  :)
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: jester on August 07, 2004, 09:15:39 AM
I think many kits and alignments are a bit of a stretch, but I guess that is what you get from combining choice and a rigid story.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: NiGHTMARE on August 07, 2004, 05:53:56 PM
Being shut away inside Candlekeep, how could the PC be any type of ranger? For that matter, how could he be a druid, thief, priest of any god besides Oghma, Deneir, Gond and Mili (these being the only gods with a priesthood inside Candlekeep), etc, etc?

Sometimes you've got to sacrifice realsim for freedom of choice :).
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: MythicalChicken on August 08, 2004, 02:47:21 PM
Being shut away inside Candlekeep, how could the PC be any type of ranger? For that matter, how could he be a druid, thief, priest of any god besides Oghma, Deneir, Gond and Mili (these being the only gods with a priesthood inside Candlekeep), etc, etc?

Sometimes you've got to sacrifice realsim for freedom of choice :).

I don't know .. I don't come from a D/D background,  nor was I raised in a small-town type environment, but my Dad particularly was raised in the country. People don't give secluded areas enough credit -- there's plenty to learn and do, so I could foresee explanations for the majority of the ktis. Candlekeep's occupants were very well learned and knowledgable, so who knows who could've taught the PC different classes of fighting. Plus, Candlekeep was surrounded by woodland, so I could see them following a druid/ranger path.

I get the same reaction from folks who feel the PC is sexually naive b/c they were raised in a secluded environment (as it applies to the romances) -- trust me, for a honry teenager there's plenty sex to be had, even in places like Candlekeep.

No Southern having-it-off-with-your-cousin jokes, please.  ;D
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Lord Kain on August 08, 2004, 03:27:09 PM
thief is a self taught class. Imoen is a good example of that

Yeah the cleric kits don't make sense.

If you go back to BG1 and play a class then read your bio it says HOW you became that class.


So the cleric kits and the Feralen make not sense. But the Feralen really makes no sense.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: jester on August 08, 2004, 04:38:13 PM
I think the fighter, cleric and mage choices are very viable (I would dispute the fighter kits though). Druids and rangers only as seldom visitors wouldn't have taught you much. Why is thief a self taught class? I thought Winthorp was her teacher.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Andyr on August 08, 2004, 04:59:22 PM
PS. Can any of the Call of The Wild summoned kitties survive in ToB, or even late SoA?

Thankies!  :)

The wolves you summon aren't amazingly powerful, but better ones are summoned at higher levels. :) They're tougher than goblins but probably couldn't take out a pit fiend, put it like that.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: WolfCatBot on August 08, 2004, 05:39:44 PM
Thankies everyone, and thankies Andyr sir. :)

Hmmrowr. :D Hmmeow. :) Ummeow. :D

I guess it would be weird to play one. :) I might not then, but they're still cool. :D
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Mongoose87 on August 08, 2004, 08:34:07 PM
This phonomenon can be excused in the following fashon:
Suppose the PC is druid.
The PC is a young (woma/man) with an interest in nature and an unusual outlook on life (TN).
Gorion helps to feed this interest by getting a local monk to teach the PC something about nature, and gives him/her access to all sorts of books on it in the library.  Eventually the PC's interes in nature becomes a religion of sorts.  Suddenly the Prologue to BGI begins.  After this, the interest and whatnot are still there and constantly developping.  As the PC learns more he/she chooses a specific nature diety to worship and slowly becomes more proficient in the ways of thsi diety as he/she learns more about the ways of said diety.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Rathwellin the Bard on August 08, 2004, 11:05:40 PM
IMO it's just easier to assume that Gorion simply oversaw the PCs training.  If the PC is a druid then Gorion could simply have brought in one of his Harper friends to help the PC along.  If the PC is a Fighter then Huld or the dwarf fellow could have been trainers.  If the PC is a Cleric ... well it's not like there weren't plenty of them in Candlekeep.

It does get pretty odd when you look at classes like Barabarian and Feralan ... but it doesn't seem out of the question to me that Gorion could have had odd adventuring buddies from his wandering days who trained the PC this way.

In general though I've always seen Bards, Mages, Specialist Mages, and Multi-Classed Mages as the most likely choices for Gorion's ward.  YMMV.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: NiGHTMARE on August 09, 2004, 02:15:14 AM
Plus, Candlekeep was surrounded by woodland, so I could see them following a druid/ranger path.

But every time the PC went outside the walls of Candlekeep, he'd need to find a book worth at least 10,000 GP in order to get back in ;).
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: jester on August 09, 2004, 04:39:45 AM
I guess he always nicked that special book all the monks kept whispering about. The book of Aristotheles about comedy. :D
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Mongoose87 on August 09, 2004, 10:13:16 AM
It seems kind of unusual that Gorion would've been eager to teach the PC about magic.  How does the prospect of a powerful Bhaalspawn mage sound to anyone?
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Lord Kain on August 11, 2004, 03:15:18 AM
no when Gorion was alive he could get in and out and take the PC with him.

"with out Gorions influence the doors would remain sealed"

Gorion had enougth influence to get in and out of candlekeep with out bringing a book everytime.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: NiGHTMARE on August 11, 2004, 11:40:43 AM
I really don't see Gorion accompanying the PC every time he wanted to "get close to nature".

For that matter, a PC druid would need druidic teachers, and such teachers simply would not approve of one of their students living anywhere other than in a druid grove, let alone being constantly accompanied by a non-druid.
Title: Re: A Feralan PC?
Post by: Rathwellin the Bard on August 11, 2004, 08:04:46 PM
Sigh.  Gorion was a Harper & a former adventurer.  Surely he could have found *someone* who would have been willing to 'bend the rules' a bit to train the PC had he thought it the right thing to do.

Though I still say that he would have probably liked to have trained the PC himself, if said PC had no aptitude for magic or for some of the other obvious Candlekeep professions (Bard, Cleric, Fighter) then someone else Gorion trusted would have been brought in.