Pocket Plane Group
Miscellany, Inc. => Infinity Engine Modding Q&A => Topic started by: Andyr on September 01, 2004, 03:00:29 PM
-
Anyone know if it is possible to stop Paladins falling when they do bad stuff?
I know you can use RemovePaladinHood and RegainPaladinHood, but I guess that could cause problems when you're an Evil character.
I'm thinking about this for a Blackguard kit - if I can base it on a Paladin, it will make things easier for me. :)
-
There's no way of doing it at all, sorry. Virtue doesn't actually stop it either, but shh.
There's some SPL file that gets applied when a paladin falls which might help you out. I forget what it's called though. Anyone?
-
Any other ideas, anyone? Know what the SPL is?
I will love you this <-----> much. Or pay someone else to, if that's your bag.
-
If its a matter of a spell being applied, I suppose the obvious answer would be to grant the Blackguard kit immunity to that particular spell. However, since this is such an obvious answer, I guess this has already been tried and found not to work. :(
-
i'm guessing you want a solution more elegant than the anti-paladin, yeah? it has a spell PALREP.spl which is assigned in the CLAB at lvl1; PALREP is an SetAIScript for ANTIPAL.BCS, which does:
IF
FallenPaladin(Myself)
ReputationLT(Myself,14)
Global("GOODIE_TWO_SHOES","LOCALS",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
RegainPaladinHood()
END
IF
!FallenPaladin(Myself)
ReputationGT(Myself,13)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("GOODIE_TWO_SHOES","LOCALS",1)
RemovePaladinHood()
END
-
RegainPaladinHood and RemovePaladinHood aren't acceptable in a solution, because they change reputation. If a paladin falls to 1 rep, RegainPaladinHood will boost the rep straight back up to 10 or whatever the minimum is.
The spell I'm thinking of may well be SPCL234 or SPCL235, but I don't recall for certain. Immunity to the spell(s) won't work, because they don't contain ALL the effects of falling (like losing the paladin CLAB progression), but rather just some afterthoughts like disabling spellcasting.
-
SPCL235 removes Turn Undead from an Inquisitor via CLAB so I doubt it's the generalized 'paladin falling' spell. I'm willing to bet it's a hardcoded engine feature.
-
SPCL351, SPCL234 & SPCL235 are the 3 spells applied by the fallen paladin CLAB file (CLABPA05). I haven't tried removing them to see whether the affect they have is actually hard-coded, but most of the results of falling are hard-coded.
-
Ah, yeh, the CLAB. I thought I tested it once (by stopping the buttons being disabled on falling), but then I think many things.
Anyway, the theory is that if it works, you re-add all the paladin's abilities via the CLAB, complete with title-change effect.
-
One avenue of exploration Andyr and I were discussing was the IESDP listing for spell opcode 108--it seems to imply that party rep can be overridden with individual rep. So if we could somehow script individual rep (by re-applying a spell to keep it at, say, 12) regardless of party rep, everything would get along fine. We'll try it out and see if it works.
-
Party rep IS Player1's rep, though. ReputationGT(Player1,12) and all.
-
Heh, I didn't even think about that before replying, good thing there's this "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." message. This theory would've made sense for trying to give Player2-6 an individual reputation.
-
I did not know there was a Fallen Paladin CLAB.
I might try granting the kit immunity to those 3 spells, then, and the Change Title effect and see what that leaves me with.
-
Well. What I tried in the end was appending this to BALDUR.BCS:
IF
FallenPaladin(Player1)
OR(3)
Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_EVIL)
Alignment(Player1,NEUTRAL_EVIL)
Alignment(Player1,CHAOTIC_EVIL)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ActionOverride(Player1,RegainPaladinHood())
END
I know to allow for multiplayer mode eventually I'd have to make blocks for players 2 - 6 too but this was for a test. This method works, except:
1. It resets Reputation to 10 every time.
2. Kit abilities are regained on the RegainPaladinHood, so even if you've used your allocations of Poison Weapon or whatever for the day, you'll get it back again.
3. Evil Paladins will Turn Undead rather than Command Undead. Can't seem to do much about that.
I had also tried doing AddKit instead of RegainPaladinHood but this just caused a stutter.
I will next see if giving the kit immunity to the Change Reputation opcode (#108?) stops Falling or not, and if so what affect it has on the rest of the party.
Any other ideas, let me know, else I'll see how it goes...
Cheers for the help thus far. :)
-
Ok, immunity to opcode #108 doesn't stop Falling either.
-
if you can't be good don't play a paladin!
-
I'm thinking about this for a Blackguard kit - if I can base it on a Paladin, it will make things easier for me. :)
-
All the evil paladin kits in the past used the fighter as the base class.
-
I know. I'd rather use the Paladin, though, for spell access and Undead turning ability.
-
if you can't be good don't play a paladin!
Seconded! How's that supposed to be roleplaying if you play a paladin, but with an advance decision to be evil? I doubt one would be able to even become one, as their masters would surely be able to do detect evil at their discretion. If the choice would be based only on how powerful a paladin is/can be, then what kind of roleplaying is it???
Besides, alignment is not the choice of a player, it's rather a result of a player's choice in the manner that how the player behaves, wishes to behave, and will behave, determines their alignment. If you want to act lawful good, and put that on your sheet, a good (in technical sense, not alignment) GM/DM would chastise you if you start off at wrong foot, and your actions are evil right from the start.
-
i'd consider (once i've glutted myself on mods for a while, at the latest) playing a paladin (prob. cavalier) through soa who fails at least one of the abyss tests (prob. pride) and spends tob in a bitter state until he - redeems himself? damn, might have to learn how to edit his epilogue before i follow through on that one... unless bioware actually left an easter-egg in there for Fallen? doesn't strike me as likely, anyone out there done this before?
and i still support an atonement package for potential future virtue-extension-paks.
-
Seconded! How's that supposed to be roleplaying if you play a paladin, but with an advance decision to be evil? I doubt one would be able to even become one, as their masters would surely be able to do detect evil at their discretion. If the choice would be based only on how powerful a paladin is/can be, then what kind of roleplaying is it???
Besides, alignment is not the choice of a player, it's rather a result of a player's choice in the manner that how the player behaves, wishes to behave, and will behave, determines their alignment. If you want to act lawful good, and put that on your sheet, a good (in technical sense, not alignment) GM/DM would chastise you if you start off at wrong foot, and your actions are evil right from the start.
You're confusing the game engine with D&D rules. They're not trying to create a paladin who happens to be evil, rather a completely seperate class which is basically the evil equivalent of a paladin. He worships an evil god, was trained in an evil temple, etc; he's not just a paladin who's "lost his way" or someone hiding out in the middle of a bunch of goody two-shoes, but someone who's always been evil and was granted his evil knighthood alongside other equally evil people.
The problem is that the BG2 engine doesn't allow the creation of new classes, so it has to be created as a kit for one of the classes that already exists in the game. If it were a fighter kit, it wouldn't be able to cast spells or turn/command undead; if it were a cleric kit, there would have to be a lot of fiddling around with spell removal via scripting. The paladin class is the closest thing available.
So it's only a paladin kit in the game engine sense, not the D&D sense.
-
Exactly what NiGHTMARE said; I want to create a Blackguard, which is an evil counterpart of the Paladin. But I want to use the Paladin's interface as it has the correct hp, save progression, thac0 progression, spell progression... You get the idea. ;)
-
Have you had any luck with it, by the way, Andyr?
-
No... I am still stuck to making them fall and then un-fall (but this gives them daily uses of abilites back and resets rep to 10).
Also I don't think it's possible to make them Rebuke Undead, only Turn Undead.
-
Also I don't think it's possible to make them Rebuke Undead, only Turn Undead.
That's odd. I remember someone who played an un-Baldurdashed game (and thus his paladin didn't automatically Fall upon going Neutral Evil in the Tears of Bhaal test) talking about "once I realized that in ToB Turn Undead controls undead rather than scaring them," which made me think commanding undead rather than destroying them was purely alignment-linked. You're sure the evil paladin you're testing with is high enough level to command the undead you're testing on?
-
Yeh, went up to the Tutu cap, summoned one of the little skeletons... He ran away when I Turned instead of becoming allied.
The Alignment thing works for Clerics but not it seems Paladins. :( Will experiment more if this can be confirmed when my BGII install is fixed.
-
The conversion cap? I have my doubts about the ability of the equivalent of a sixth-level evil cleric to command skeletons. I mean, did you test sixth-level Viconia?
*checks*
Well, a Shadowkeepered 34th-level Chaotic Evil paladin commands (does not Turn) zombies and ghouls.
-
Thanks - that would be one problem down, then. I'll have to fix my BGII install and test again. :)
-
How do you stop a paladin from falling?
The answer: Don't. Let them fall (the fall is glorious, is it not? lol).
Create a Blackguard kit. Then create a carbon copy of your kit's 2DA but rename it CLABPA05.2DA and place it in your override directory. When your paladin falls (after committing the first "evil" act), he or she will stop using the Blackguard 2DA and begin using the Fallen Paladin 2DA, which is identical. Slick, huh?
This works because a Fallen Paladin does not cease to be a Paladin. The Fallen Paladin simply starts using the Fallen Paladin 2DA, which contains three spells: remove priest spells button, remove turn undead button, and remove lay on hands (I think those are the three spells anyway, its been awhile since I've scripted the Blackguard of Bane). Your paladin should retain his abilities and continue to gain priest spells at the appropriate levels and whatnot.
I suggest that your Blackguard gain "Doom" in place of "Detect Evil" and gain "Protection from Good" instead of "Protection from Evil". I also suggest giving your Blackguard several uses of a custom "Charm Undead" spell - it is only appropriate. ;-) (I have a custom Blackguard of Bane kit that uses these abilities... and could send it to you if you desire).
Your class will, unfortunately, list as Fallen Paladin on the portrait screen, but your kit description will remain Blackguard. Also note that this method cannot be used to add multiple Blackguard kits (because there is only one CLABPA05 file). Note, too, that a normal paladin will become a Blackguard if he or she falls (the dark gods are eager to embrace and empower those fallen from the light... LOL. I love being evil... its just so damn fun).
I hope this helps.
Dark blessings on you,
a Wounded Lion
-
Note, too, that a normal paladin will become a Blackguard if he or she falls.
I was about to point out that this would happen, but I see you thought of it already. In my opinion, this flaw makes the entire idea unworkable. That and the class being listed as Fallen Paladin on the character screen.
-
Does it? I rather like the idea of Fallen Paladins being embraced by the dark gods that empower Blackguards... Honestly, if your character falls, then you're not much of a Paladin-spirited player to begin with... ;) But, to each his own, I suppose. The portrait screen listing is unavoidable, to my knowledge, and requires a little re-interpretation... I like to think of "Fallen Paladin" as meaning a Paladin of the fallen gods (Bane, Bhaal, other dark powers, etc).
Another point to consider: is there a better solution? The Anti-Paladin solution is awful, in my opinion. The Death Knight provides a viable alternative, but is not truly a Paladin if I recall correctly.
a Wounded Lion
-
What about those Paladins that fall just because they couldn't live up to the rigorous demands of being a paladin? What if they shift to CG, or LN, or... y'know, whatever?
-
. The Death Knight provides a viable alternative, but is not truly a Paladin if I recall correctly.
understatement. esp. with improved tactics DKs?
[my favorite thing about death knights is they remind me of the dead kennedys]
you'd have to Fall quite deliberately and sinisterly, i imagine. only an alternative for a heavily twisted bhaalspawn (the best time to perpetrate the blackguardry might be just after irenicus yanks yr immortality - profound bitterness over charname's loss fuses with remnants of the savage dream-bhaal, and they drive the 'spawn into a fugue or fury that ends in an irrevocable plunge, into the abyss of what is left of charname's soul.
and you may switch to the death-knight avatar if it helps. :pirate
and i second ghreyfain's question.
-
I like to think of "Fallen Paladin" as meaning a Paladin of the fallen gods (Bane, Bhaal, other dark powers, etc).
"They're fallen, and they can't get up!"
Evil gods are not "fallen."
-
What about those Paladins that fall just because they couldn't live up to the rigorous demands of being a paladin? What if they shift to CG, or LN, or... y'know, whatever?
You have to commit seriously wrong acts to fall (i.e. - murder, robbery, etc). It may be easier to fall in the pen and paper version of D&D, but falling is rather deliberate in the computer games.
a Wounded Lion
-
Sir Reynald de Chatillion is a fallen paladin. He is hardly a Blackguard.
-
you'd have to Fall quite deliberately and sinisterly, i imagine.
Indeed. ;D
a Wounded Lion
-
Evil gods are not "fallen."
That would be a matter of opinion, in my opinion. Some hard core D&D buffs might disagree with me though... ;)
a Wounded Lion
-
Evil gods are not "fallen."
That would be a matter of opinion, in my opinion.
Explain.
-
Can one be born evil? Is it possible? If it is not possible, then one MUST "fall" to become evil.
Anyone who chooses to be evil, whether once good or not, could be said to be fallen from the sight and comforts of the benevolent gods of the multiverse and the company of most of his fellow men.
Also, I believe that the term "fallen" is commonly used, in some circles, to denote "evil" or "forsaken".
~The Challenge~
Really, though, if you don't like it, then don't use it or come up with something better... :pirate
a Wounded Lion
-
Can one be born evil? Is it possible?
If one is a god, the embodiment of a concept, and that concept is "cruelty" or "bad luck"? Hmm, let me think.
-
Ah, see. There is a difference of views at work. You think of the gods as abstract representations of concepts and ideals. I was arguing under the premise that gods were individual beings. So our arguments were destined to discord... I'm not sure that we can continue without heavy philosophy, which would probably be out of place here.
a Wounded Lion
-
We're not talking about real gods here, but Forgotten Realms gods. Anyone can pick up a book and learn that Talos, Beshaba, Talona, and Loviatar were never good.
-
We're not talking about real gods here, but Forgotten Realms gods. Anyone can pick up a book and learn that Talos, Beshaba, Talona, and Loviatar were never good.
AHHHH!!! The lines between reality and fantasy are blurring!!! HELP!!! lol. ;D
I have only just begun to explore the pen and paper version of D&D (or AD&D if you prefer). So... who knows? Maybe you are right... not that I think so... but I don't see this debate progressing anywhere when we are arguing from different sources of knowledge...
And at core, is it really that much to live with that the portrait screen says "Fallen"? It is a mod, after all. Not everything is do-able.
a Wounded Lion
-
Well, Kish is right about what the books say. If you have a different philosophy that you wish to use in your P&P games, that's cool. But canon is that certain gods are and always were evil, and certain other gods are and always were good. That's not really a matter of opinion.
I wouldn't particularly care about the screen saying "fallen" either, much... but then, I'd probably never play a blackguard anyway, so my opinion on this is moot.
-
In FR, a mortal can ascend to godhood, no? That pretty much rules out the concept of gods being abstract beings. In which case, if you accept childhood innocence or whatever, then presumably evil gods could indeed be "fallen", whether or not the books bother to mention it.
-
In FR, a mortal can ascend to godhood, no? That pretty much rules out the concept of gods being abstract beings. In which case, if you accept childhood innocence or whatever, then presumably evil gods could indeed be "fallen", whether or not the books bother to mention it.
Cyric and Midnight certainly good, although I am not sure if it was a result of the Time of Troubles. I can only recall one book that details rules for ascending, Dungeon Master Guide: High-Level Campaigns, and as far as I recall, the rules were rather poorly made.
-Echon
-
Since the discussion seems to be moving towards P&P...
I wonder if you all might have any advice on whether I should I learn AD&D 2E or learn D&D 3.5E. I am aware that there are differences between the two (Wizards of the Coast bought TSR, and changed everything to the D20 system, etc.). Wizards of the Coast strikes me as a sell-out company (they managed to completely ruin the Magic: The Gathering franchise), but in terms of the actual game, what are the differences? Any helpful advice would be appreciated... I do not take major investments of my time and money lightly, and would like to make a good decision.
a W.L.
-
In relation to the IE games or just in general? I prefer AD&D 2E to D&D 3E but I think I am the only who is going to recommend that to you. In practical terms, 2E is cheaper but harder to come across, 3E is the other way around of course.
-Echon
-
If you're thinking of modding IE games, I think no knowledge of D&D at all is the way to go.
-
Why?
-Echon
-
I don't have any.
-
Just post your stuff and all the rules will be spoon fed to you by the knowledgeable people anyway.
-
For playing and lots of customizibility 3rd Edition.
For lots of juicy story and colour material. 2nd Edition.
-
Another point to consider: is there a better solution? The Anti-Paladin solution is awful, in my opinion. The Death Knight provides a viable alternative, but is not truly a Paladin if I recall correctly.
a Wounded Lion
Back on topic, what is this Death Knight you mention? What method does it use?
-
Back on topic, what is this Death Knight you mention? What method does it use?
A Death Knight is a powerful undead warrior. They were all paladins when they lived but commited an action so terrible that they were punished by the gods and made undead. (See Lord Soth of Krynn).
-Echon
-
From Wounded Lion's post, I thought it was a kit mod or something.
-
The Death Knight is one of six custom kits available in The Sorcerer's Place Collection:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index_editors2.php
I rather like the kit, myself. It's not a paladin, but is fun to play.
a Wounded Lion
-
Gee Andyr, looks like you should browse G3 more thoroughly. :P They have some interesting stuff over there.
-
Meh, I heard they were a bunch of whiny hacks.
-
G3 is Sorcerer's Place, now?
-
No, but you can get the stuff which was talked about here:
http://www.gibberlings3.net/spc/index.html