Pocket Plane Group

BG2 Completed Mods => Unfinished Business => Topic started by: Silfairë on April 06, 2004, 12:45:09 AM

Title: Archived Posts - Greyhand
Post by: Silfairë on April 06, 2004, 12:45:09 AM
It seems that I almost convinced the guy there but in the end he attacked me. I tried reloading and trying different dialog options but same result. I don't want to kill this guy so I wondered if having a high wisdom or intelligence helps here. Does it?
Title: Re: Is there a peaceful resolution to the Grayhand encounter?
Post by: icelus on April 06, 2004, 08:00:05 AM
Nope, he's crazy, and logic won't really work on him.  Chalk another one up for Irenicus.
Title: Re: Is there a peaceful resolution to the Grayhand encounter?
Post by: Barren on April 06, 2004, 06:08:12 PM
And don't blame it on us, it's all Bioware's dialog  ;)
Title: Re: Is there a peaceful resolution to the Grayhand encounter?
Post by: Silfairë on April 06, 2004, 09:57:38 PM
Nope, he's crazy, and logic won't really work on him.  Chalk another one up for Irenicus.

Heh, that's cool. I like being extremely thorough (to the point of madness :) ) so I was just curious as to whether there was more than one way to handle this encounter.

I have to say that this guy really adds to the game and I couldn't tell that it came from a 3rd party add-on. As a matter of fact, I can say this for all the components of UB. If I hadn't played the game before, I wouldn't be able to tell if the components from UB were from a mod. They look as official as everything else (which I think is one of the greatest things about this mod as it doesn't change the purity of the game one bit).

The funny thing is, when I came upon Greyhand, I didn't know who he was and I didn't realize that he was from a mod. So, I made a search on him for quite a while before discovering that he was actually part of the UB mod. :)
     
Title: Re: Is there a peaceful resolution to the Grayhand encounter?
Post by: icelus on April 06, 2004, 10:41:12 PM
If I hadn't played the game before, I wouldn't be able to tell if the components from UB were from a mod. They look as official as everything else (which I think is one of the greatest things about this mod as it doesn't change the purity of the game one bit).

You mean besides the rampant game-halting bugs?  Heh... just kidding.  Thank you for your kind words.  Hearing that UB integrates seamlessly is a great compliment, and I hope we can continue that with future releases.  We can't take full credit, however, as much of the dialog already existed in the game.  We just had to activate a few things here or there. 

I will try my best to get v7 out the door this weekend to take care of some of the more serious bugs.  Thank goodness for three-day weekends.  ;)
Title: Re: Is there a peaceful resolution to the Grayhand encounter?
Post by: lsperzel on April 08, 2004, 07:39:58 PM
I'm ready for immediate testing if it involves Spellhold and Seamon - just roll it out.  I'll even replay the whole maze deal if I have a save there.  I've forgotten how boring BG1 is without banters and flirts and romances, etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: Is there a peaceful resolution to the Grayhand encounter?
Post by: Alarielle on April 12, 2004, 05:39:37 AM
I've forgotten how boring BG1 is without banters and flirts and romances, etc. etc. etc.

I was unfortunate enough to play BG2 before I played BG1, so it was such a disappointment to me  :(
Title: Greyhand
Post by: Barren on May 13, 2004, 12:48:59 PM
Not only did you not use the stats and scripts I made for him, but you didn't even give him the Boots09  >:( *Mad*
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: icelus on May 13, 2004, 03:18:02 PM
I couldn't not find the original files you sent me a long time ago.  I had to come up with the stats and stuff while you were gone.  If you have them, resend them and I'll get everything straightened out.

As for the boots--way too overpowered.  If we can come up with something interesting, not overpowered, and with a good description, then we can re-add them.  As they stand now, however, they suck.  :)
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: Barren on May 13, 2004, 04:01:49 PM
I know. But what we agreed to was to disallow them for pureclass warriors (as they disable spellcasting and thief skills).
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: icelus on May 13, 2004, 04:05:12 PM
Well, if you want to come up with exactly what the boots should/currently do, as well as a description, then we'll see about adding it.  It's just not high priority for me, really.  I need to start writing for the Keldorn quest.  :(
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: icelus on May 30, 2004, 12:03:31 AM
*bump*

Still waiting on those files, Barren, if you still have them.  :)
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: Barren on May 31, 2004, 12:02:38 AM
Sent you Greyie's CRE files, but I think I've lost his boots...  :-\
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 11, 2004, 10:09:30 PM
For what it's worth, I'm against giving Greyhand any further items--his dialogue indicates that he's just escaped from Spellhold, and the upper portions of the place are definitely no candy-store of cool gear. The lower portions, Bodhi's Maze, certainly are, but you have to prove your sanity again and again to get out of there, a feat of which Greyhand does not seem capable. So I'm going to argue that Taragarth is enough for him (especially as its Non-Detection is very in-character for sneaking past Irenicus).

Instead, I would buff up his personal stats so that his fight is at least partially as memorable as his dialogue. As he stands now, he's about on a par with a Level 10 Thief as far as straight melee skills are concerned. At least have him drink an Oil of Speed before the fight or something.
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: icelus on July 11, 2004, 10:23:55 PM
Actually, I'm considering giving Taragarth to Suna Seni, Arbane to Eldarin, and just a generic sword to Greyhand.  He did just escape, afterall.

Then again, now I feel like I'm overshuffling existing game content. 

*sigh*
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: Barren on July 12, 2004, 10:57:45 PM
But boots would kinda make sense after all, since there's a boot machine in the dungeon.
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 16, 2004, 12:02:51 AM
Yes, except that Greyhand can't get through the dungeon! Let alone go through the entire thing and yet still seal everything back up behind him as if nobody was ever there (including putting Dace's hand back on).
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: Eltharodo on July 16, 2004, 02:33:48 AM
Maybe he did it sometime before all the traps were laid down.  He just have been young at some point, right?  Well, most of the floor traps would have been pretty easy to either avoid or move out of the way from <read "make a saving throw">
Title: Re: Greyhand
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 18, 2004, 01:24:21 AM
Eltharodo.....what/who are you talking about? There are no Traps in Spellhold at all, except for the single, nondisarmable "Crushing Walls" trap. Greyhand ovbiously did not get out of Spellhold in the same way the party did, because he would have had to:
1) Get sent into the Maze to begin with (neither Irenicus nor Bodhi had much reason to do such a thing)
2) Kill a bunch of Kobolds (even this would be difficult for Greyhand, unless he had a party and he was just the only survivor)
3) Get past some Undead (impossible if there's a Lich)
4) Kill Dace (impossible unless at least one of Greyhand's party was a lot more powerful than Greyhand)
5) Kill or sneak past some Umber Hulks/Minotaurs/Yuan-Ti
6) Somehow, bring the Kobolds, Dace, and anyone else they killed back to life (impossible)
7) Somehow get that giant stone head to snap shut again
8) Get past whatever Trolls and Minotaurs are along the way to the two stone Horns you need to fix the statue
9) Somehow get around the fact that whoever sent Greyhand into the Maze probably isn't just going to let him walk right out
10) Either A] Answer all the riddles correctly and fight some Trolls, or B] Answer some riddles incorrectly and fight Sahuagin, Otyughs, Elementals, and a Mind Flayer
11) Once again, somehow bring back to life everybody that he (or they) had killed.

Once again, Greyhand did not go through the Spellhold Maze. And what does his age have to do with anything?

The tricky part is figuring out what Greyhand did do, and when. He didn't stage his jailbreak during the chaos caused by Irenicus killing all the Cowls, because then Grey wouldn't have come under Jon's direct control and thus developed a grudge. He's already out by the time the PC arrives, so that can't have caused it.....maybe when Bodhi arrives, she's hungry (I suppose eating madmen is better for society than eating able-bodied seamen), and stages a hunt to amuse herself--and Greyhand manages to lose himself in the shuffle. Still, even this doesn't work well, as his dialogue doesn't mention Bodhi even once.
Title: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on July 20, 2004, 09:14:05 PM
Eltharodo.....what/who are you talking about? There are no Traps in Spellhold at all, except for the single, nondisarmable "Crushing Walls" trap. Greyhand ovbiously did not get out of Spellhold in the same way the party did, because he would have had to:
1) Get sent into the Maze to begin with (neither Irenicus nor Bodhi had much reason to do such a thing)
2) Kill a bunch of Kobolds (even this would be difficult for Greyhand, unless he had a party and he was just the only survivor)
3) Get past some Undead (impossible if there's a Lich)
4) Kill Dace (impossible unless at least one of Greyhand's party was a lot more powerful than Greyhand)
5) Kill or sneak past some Umber Hulks/Minotaurs/Yuan-Ti
6) Somehow, bring the Kobolds, Dace, and anyone else they killed back to life (impossible)
7) Somehow get that giant stone head to snap shut again
8) Get past whatever Trolls and Minotaurs are along the way to the two stone Horns you need to fix the statue
9) Somehow get around the fact that whoever sent Greyhand into the Maze probably isn't just going to let him walk right out
10) Either A] Answer all the riddles correctly and fight some Trolls, or B] Answer some riddles incorrectly and fight Sahuagin, Otyughs, Elementals, and a Mind Flayer
11) Once again, somehow bring back to life everybody that he (or they) had killed.

Once again, Greyhand did not go through the Spellhold Maze. And what does his age have to do with anything?

The tricky part is figuring out what Greyhand did do, and when. He didn't stage his jailbreak during the chaos caused by Irenicus killing all the Cowls, because then Grey wouldn't have come under Jon's direct control and thus developed a grudge. He's already out by the time the PC arrives, so that can't have caused it.....maybe when Bodhi arrives, she's hungry (I suppose eating madmen is better for society than eating able-bodied seamen), and stages a hunt to amuse herself--and Greyhand manages to lose himself in the shuffle. Still, even this doesn't work well, as his dialogue doesn't mention Bodhi even once.

First, I'd like to reply to this post by Six. (Actually, it's already past six, so I'll try to do it by eleven) Bioware didn't leave Greyhand's creature file in the game, only his dialog file. Therefore, all his stats were made up by the UB team (more precisely, Icelus and myself) Bioware might have, and probably has intended Greyhand to be more challenging than a minotaur. Even his class (fighter/thief seemed to make sense at first) is a completely arbitrary decision. However, I just realized that the guy was held in a Residence for the *magically* deviant, meaning he must actually be a spellcaster of somekind. There are two sorts of people in Spellhold after Irenicus has taken over: the inmates and the enthralled Cowled Wizards. While these two groups are obviously both insane, which one do you think most closely resembles Greyhand's behavior? The single-minded ranting, the desperate effort to maintain a logical train of thought, numerous mentions of Spellhold, an intense hatred of Irenicus? Wanev and Perth are the only ones who act that way. Meaning that Greyhand must actually have been a Cowled Wizard as well. In he next version of UB, I would like to make the following changes to him: lv 20 CN human mage, Cowled Wizard avatar, Boot09.itm (with description), 10 str/12 dex/10 con/17 int/8 wis/12 cha, and vaguely smart AI script. Aye or nay?
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Caswallon on July 21, 2004, 04:27:37 AM
Level 20? What is the level of Wanev, the guy in charge before Irenicus took over?

Generally: The story sounds good to me.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: BevH on July 21, 2004, 01:43:48 PM
Wanev is level 18.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: MERLANCE on July 21, 2004, 03:01:39 PM
Wanev is level 18.

And Perth is also level 18.

Logically, this Greyhand fellow should also be level 18 or 17.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on July 21, 2004, 04:54:37 PM
Ok then, lv 18 like everyone else.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: SixOfSpades on July 22, 2004, 04:01:03 AM
There are two sorts of people in Spellhold after Irenicus has taken over: the inmates and the enthralled Cowled Wizards. While these two groups are obviously both insane, which one do you think most closely resembles Greyhand's behavior? The single-minded ranting, the desperate effort to maintain a logical train of thought, numerous mentions of Spellhold, an intense hatred of Irenicus? Wanev and Perth are the only ones who act that way. Meaning that Greyhand must actually have been a Cowled Wizard as well.
Hmmm....I could just as easily use that same logic to prove that Dradeel, Tiax and Aphril are Cowls as well. Seriously, Greyhand always struck me as being an escaped inmate (that is, an inmate prior to the Irenicus takeover), but you know, that may have been a simple assumption based on his avatar. I must consider this.

Note: In my list of probable escape times that Barren quoted above, I had forgotten about Dace. Dace is anything but an "old" Vampire: Bodhi turned him, and (in most games) Bodhi has only been in Brynnlaw for week or so at the most. (Even if we presume that she may have visited the island before BG2 even began, remember that she has been a Vampire herself only for a very short time: If we take Irenicus at his word, he doesn't expect you to live more than a few days after losing your soul, so we can assume he felt a similar life expectancy. Even making allowances for his & Bodhi's tenacious hold on life, I don't imagine it's been more than a year since the Seldarine stripped them.) Knowing all this, it is highly probable that Dace was quite alive & kicking when Irenicus took over, and therefore he quite probably released some of the inmates himself: If he saw Irenicus teleporting around and killing people, it's quite logical to reason that he would try to save as many lives as possible, even by setting them loose.
     As to how exactly Greyhand could have learned of Irenicus's plans for CHARNAME, however, I'm clueless. Unless he found Jon's Journals....hmmmm.

And I forget just what Boot09 is....I can go check in a minute, but in a post like this it's just more conventient to state the name.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on July 22, 2004, 09:34:33 AM
They're just called Boots, but give a bonus to AC and some other bonuses, while disabling spellcasting and rogue skills.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: rreinier on July 24, 2004, 02:42:26 AM
A Spellhold inmate needn't neccesarily be "magically deviant". He could also be an enemy of Desharik...
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Andyr on October 01, 2004, 08:32:38 PM
BOOT09. No name, funky icon. Can be used by anyone.

Has an ability, with no icon, which can be used at will. It lasts for 20 seconds and does the following:

-  Sets attacks to 0.
-  Gives you an AC bonus of 8. Yes, 8.
-  Save boni - +6 to each.
-  Disables thief skills.
-  Disables stealth.
-  Disables casting, arcane and divine.
-  Plays Oil of Speed visual effect when invoked.

Clearly, this is a powerful defensive item.

I would suggest it be assigned to Greyhand and the following stuff done:

Quote
COPY_EXISTING ~boot09.itm~ ~override/boot09.itm~
WRITE_ASCII 0x76 ~CBOOT09~
SAY NAME2 ~Boots of Hastened Departure~
SAY_DESC ~These boots were crafted in ages past by the half - elven Abjurer known as Phenuel the Seer by her (few) friends, and Phenuel the Charlatan by her (many) disgruntled customers. A regular feature in Athkatla, Trademeet, and the other merchantile hubs of Amn, she was a common site peddling her wares; a series of potions designed to do anything from curing warts on various parts of the body to causing the imbiber to fall in love.

Unfortunately, while she was pretty decent at marketing, her skills in the potion -  enchanting department left a lot to be desired and as time wore on she found herself having to skip town more and more often to stay away from angry mobs. Deciding some safeguard to be prudent she crafted these boots, which came in very useful at avoiding the rotten fruits and less savoury missiles which came her way all too frequently.

Phenuel and boots were parted one evening in Nashkel when, after retiring for the evening, customers managed to catch up with her and she was forced to flee through the window in only a nightgown. Unsurprisingly she didn't dare return for the boots and hasn't been seen around much since. Neither had the boots, for that matter, until now...

STATISTICS:

The wearer can activate the power of the boots at will. When used, the ability lasts for 20 seconds. It gives the wearer a bonus of +6 to all saves and +8 to armour class. However, the wearer may not attack, cast spells, use thief skills or stealth while the ability is in effect.

Weight: 3~
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on October 01, 2004, 09:28:24 PM
I still think we should make them unusable by pureclass warrior types, or they'll be overpowered...
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: CamDawg on October 01, 2004, 10:55:47 PM
The boots seem rather pointless. How is a sanctuary spell not better?
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on October 01, 2004, 11:15:33 PM
Because only clerics can cast a Sanctuary, and it expires whenever you attack.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: MERLANCE on October 02, 2004, 01:13:25 AM
Because only clerics can cast a Sanctuary, and it expires whenever you attack.

Yes, but you can cast some spells. The boots let you cast nothing. you dont even get the option to end the boots voluntarily. Attacking effectively does that with sanctuary.

I say go with the boots, restored items are always cool.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Andyr on October 02, 2004, 11:54:11 AM
I still think we should make them unusable by pureclass warrior types, or they'll be overpowered...

How are they overpowered for a warrior? They stop you from attacking...

Cam: They are not too useful, but since they're there, I think Greyhand is as good a place for any as them.


As a sidenote, Cam, Ice and I were discussing this on IRC last night and thought it might be nice to make Greyhand into a Cleric, and have him have the boots, and cast Armour of Faith and Spiritual Weapon. Reading through his dialogue implies he likes being in the Asylum and sees it as being helpful. There is no indication he is an arcane caster, and a Cleric batlle is more interesting than a Fighter one.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on October 02, 2004, 12:25:54 PM
Ah, didn't notice the "sets attacks to 0" bit when I looked into it. Guess I should have read your post after all, eh?  ;)
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Andyr on October 02, 2004, 12:59:13 PM
Yup, the ability is useless except for if you want to make an epedious retreat. ;) Remember it's not an Equipping effect, it is an item ability.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: icelus on October 02, 2004, 05:57:00 PM
OK, how about a comprimise?  The changes to Greyhand's .cre file will be implemented, *except* for the boots.  The boots will become part of the Restored Items component, so if someone wants to have the Greyhand encounter without the boots, then they'll be able to do so.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Barren on October 02, 2004, 06:45:42 PM
Hey, I like the idea of that (as long as Restored Items put the boots on Greyhand...)
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: icelus on October 02, 2004, 07:19:33 PM
Yes, that is the idea.
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Caswallon on October 02, 2004, 08:37:13 PM
Hmm, I don't think that every item has to be always useful to the player when it fits the character who's wearing it, so I see no reason not to put it on Greyhand...

...but doing so in Restored Items is fine, too. :)
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: Andyr on October 02, 2004, 09:06:03 PM
whatever :)  :pirate
Title: Re: A rant about Greyhand
Post by: icelus on October 03, 2004, 04:12:14 PM
OK, Greyhand is now a level 11 cleric wielding a club, and should cast Armor of Faith, Spiritual Hammer, and Draw Upon Holy Might before battle.  If you also install the Restored Items component, he will be wearing the Boots of Hastened Departure.